10 person teams and the characters that are normally on that team. It is under the movie category because there is no book or superhero category. You are also allowed to use the comics.
Avengers: Hulk, Iron-man, Captain America, Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye, Doctor Strange, Quicksilver, Vision, Thor.
Justice League: Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, Shazam, Cyborg, Aquaman, Martian Man-Hunter.
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Quicksilver has gone a little over the speed of sound
The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other.
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MOVIES
To be fair, the JL is not quite as strong as their comic counterparts. Especially Flash. I think the movie Avengers have a good chance of taking out most the movie JL, but Superman is their biggest threat. Overall, JL will win even with Flash being a lot slower.
COMICS
In almost every case, the JL, but if Scarlet Witch has her full power, the JL is screwed. She literally wiped out all mutants by saying "No more mutants". She could just chaos magic away the JL. Otherwise, can't see any other comic Avenger taking down Superman or Flash. Maybe Sentry? Not sure if he counts.
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He's the whose classic adventures can involve stuff like beating up the universe.
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Another thing of note is how the speed force might work. I believe in Marvel Vs DC Flash mentioned losing connection to it and losing a lot of speed to put him on a level pegging with Quicksilver.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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But Batman could probably invent something that could beat the Avengers just like the justice buster could beat the Justice League (it was so close the suit was destroyed and everyone was destroyed). He could probably take out Iron Man Electromagnet Nerve Tree for Cyborg and Citrine Neurolizer for Green Lantern. It can track the Flash and cause him to fall, so he could beat quicksilver. Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye are not a threat at all. Cap. would be beaten by any member including Batman in his regular Batsuit. Hulk is weaker than Superman. Flash could probably take anyone down quickly.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Basically I'm saying after all the other players cancel out you'd have Superman eating Kryptonite and Hulk and Thor badly thrashed but still alive to come back from that.
Avengers
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Meanwhile putting aside the current arc which is a brief status-quo shake-up before reverting to the norm, Dr Strange has been fighting multiverse level threats as normal. is on a whole other level.
Also you stated "The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other." Now that wasn't Barry Allen the current Flash who did that, that was Wally West a completely different person. He did that once 20 years ago and it wasn't something he did by himself but rather siphoning energy from billions of people who gave it to him and the entire multiverse has been remade at least three times that I can think of since then.
If that is a valid feat to apply to Flash, some of Dr Strange's stuff is sure as heck applicable because it's at least the same person and it wasn't done under totally unique circumstances that aren't replicable in a standard fight.
If you're taking planning into consideration, I think Batman isn't going to come out ahead in a "fancy-suit-a-thon" against Iron Man and the problem is again the obscene stuff Marvel guys can do with planning - none of them really having a way to counter Dr Strange. Also Batman's anti-Justice league plans are based around his comprehensive knowledge of his teammates and are tailored specifically to them - for instance tony Stark's suit isn't integrated directly into his nervous system like Cyborg.
I'm thinking back 20 years or so, but I'm sure that in either Marvel vs DC or Justice League/Avengers (there were some 90's crossovers between the two companies) it had Quicksilver power up in the DC Universe/Flash power down in the Marvel Universe because the Speed Force isn't multiversal. It's not me saying this should happen, it's me saying what Marvel and Dc have already decided this happens.
Also Flash has the potential to take down a lot or even all of the Marvel side, but then again so do some of the others and it depends how we're matching people up because Flash also regularly struggles with people who move at normal speed like the Rogues.
Key questions:
1) Do people have time to plan or are they thrown in to the fight?
2) Are people acting like they normally would or are they fighting to kill?
3) Should we judge power based on people's general capabilities or their highest shown capabilities - which will vary a lot because comics aren't consistent with how they present thing.
I think a combination of no time to plan, fighting to kill and going based on the highest shown capabilities even if it's not their norm will give Flash a good shot at an insta-win as he should be able to vibrate everyone's brains out their socket in a nanosecond, with the only possibility of a defence being Strange's automatic mystical protections. Any other situation though (e.g. Avengers can plan counters, Flash is fighting like he normally would in the comics, etc) and he loses the edge.
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Even if we are taking the Speed force out then we can put Hulk and thor in the Phantom Zone.
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He then gets badly beaten up by these ordinary humans and needs a special suit that stores speed force to be able to do anything in Marvel.
Marvel vs DC was something different, it was in the 90s not the 80s and the fights took place in nondescript locations rather than specifically in the Marvel universe.
You'll also note that in the panel you provide clearly states that he is moving less than light speed. That the numbers don't add up to reflect that means the author got his maths wrong - not that the Flash was actually travelling that fast when the comic book states that he wasn't. In fact not being able to move faster than light is a significant limitation for the Flash and part of his story as trying will cause him to merge with the Speed Force if there aren't plot specific rationalisations for how he manages to avoid it in a particular instance.
Also contrary to your claim that still wasn't Barry Allen that did that, once again that was Wally West in 2003 in JLA #89.
Lastly in relation to trying to strand the heavy hitters in a different dimension, Marvel has 2 guys who can do that with no prep time or non-standard equipment necessary (Dr Strange and Thor can both travel to and from other dimensions and send people there) unlike the DC team where they'd need the Phantom Zone projector, so if you think that is the winning tactic then you should lean in Marvel's favour as they have the advantage there.
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If I had to choose though between the two, i'd have a horrible time since I know a lot more about DC which is still limited and even far less on Marvel. That's why I say, there is always that alternative. NONE of them stand a chance against
ONE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCH
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Justice league is extremely defensive in its power kit.
Avengers are semi-defensive with only Hulk being the true unkillable among them.
Superman and wonder woman you won't be laying a finger on... The only hope avengers have is if captain America and hulk 'tank' their strategic attacks effectively over and over again then maybe it will begin to open up windows for their more offensive kit but i doubt this will matter.
Batman has gear that can auto-detect and auto-this and that... Green lantern can imagine matter-based objects of any shape and density at will and make them a reality as long as he isn't scared at all and instead turns the fear immediately into adrenaline AKA bravery and not to mention that while Hawkeye has supernatural aim, Arrow is a genius of when and how to sneak the arrows in which is much more important for the attack-damage carry in the team than pure aiming of the skillshots.
Black widow and iron man will be futile. if you dont understand why, you dont understand the science of what beats what. the type of warfare that black widow and iron man are designed for is vs MANY easily killable enemies, they are not designed for 1v1 drawn out brutal combat. Hulk and captain america are designed for that but that's only 2 on the team whereas other than Arrow every single justice league member is designed for longer drawn out brutal combat rather than rapid-fire 1-vs-all type combat.
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Gandhi never won a war, plenty of wars have been won by offence (e.g. take Hitlers campaigns against Poland, the Netherlands, France, etc where his blitzkrieg tactics defeated the enemy or Genghis Khan's horse swarm) and trying to summarise all the factors involved in warfare in a single wars are won by X statement is incredibly simplistic to the point of obliviousness.
I'm honestly not sure where you're getting most of your ideas from this from, like what gear batman has that autodetects, what it's auto detecting, how that's helpful, how Hawkeye and Green Arrow differ in skills when they're basically carbon copies of one another or why you think Black Widow and Iron man specialise in fighting lots of weak enemies when pretty much every hero mentioned will have decades of comic books showing their history of taking on high-level super-villains on par with members of the opposing team.
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Later on sieges became easier for the mongols as they used engineers from conquered populaces, so even though the defenders still has a clear defensive advantage in having fortified positions they were still in an inferior overall position and their defensive advantage came to mean less and less in real terms as the mongol offensive prowess increased.
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winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.
genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
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You don't know where I'm weak so you don't know where to attack.
If you understood my arguments better, you'd begin to find where they could be attacked, if at all.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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debating has a tiny bit of luck involved and I can be beaten but no, my arguments do not leave much to be attacked. I structure my arguments to be basic and extremely well-founded rather than elegant and powerful but flawed in their basis.
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For your claim to be true it should be impossible for me to even provide 1 example of offence winning out over a superior defence in war. I have provided that example, Genghis Khan, ergo you are wrong.
That's not even getting into the other problems with your argument like the assumption - completely without evidence to support it btw - that warfare can be summed up as some simplistic offence vs defence dialectic or that warfare has any connection to brightly coloured comic book characters punching each other in an imaginary battle.
You simply saying "I am right because I say I am right", which is all your argument amounts to, is irrelevent. All it tells us is that you have a high opinion of yourself and nothing else.
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"wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."
In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.
Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
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"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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1) No time to plan in advance for the fight so the Marvel side can't raise any defence against this tactic
2) Everyone going all out - e.g. Flash will be performing at his peak, not at the level he often actually performs where he can struggle against guys moving at normal speed.
3) No morals so Flash is willing to go for the kill.
Without those, this doesn't apply.
With Flash and this tactic in particular there are two extra issues:
4) How do Flash's powers work? As shown earlier they only work normally in the DC universes, in the Marvel or presumably a neutral universe he doesn't have access to the speed force - which eh needs to time travel.
5) How does time travel work? Different multiverses have different multiversal laws. In Marvel with its infinite universes it's nigh impossible to change the future by altering the past, you actually just create a new alternate timeline but leave the original untouched. In DC with its limited number of universes, going back in time actually does change the future.
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1) what you define as 'clearly superior'
2) the inability to exploit Khan's defense system.
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2) The issue was the Mongol's offensive prowess. On a field of battle the Mongols would have beat the Xia troops handily using their offensive prowess to mercilessly slaughter the Xians hence how the Xians relied purely on their defensive advantage - which was still not enough to win them the day as all it did was stop any direct immediate attack.
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If they had known that, then the Mongols could be as offensive as they wanted but would die instantly to the exploitation of their defense.
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And you can still offer no proofs of your "defence = everything" theory being real?
and you've still offered no proof of any connection to your alleged lynchpin of military warfare and comic book fights?
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Most of the civilisations they conquered had nothing close to compulsory conscription and for that reason alone so few of the many even knew how to fight.
To defeat the mongols, simply required everyone to be ready to fight. They (Khan's men) were always outnumbered and always outgunned but won because everyone thought they'd 'play it safe and surrender' and every time it failed to mitigate the brutality.
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Evolution is not devolution and 'devolution' implies your thread is dying due to where it's heading.
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If Flash goes back in time and does things like change people's childhoods, then the fight itself never happened in the first place.
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Your assumptions involve the Flash being at his peak prowess even if that refers to levels of power he hasn't displayed for years and which were actually performed by a different character with the same superhero identity. If you make these assumptions for Flash, it is only fair that you make them for all characters. This means Dr Strange has magical automatic defences which are automatically in place and will stop him being insta-koed. It also means that we're looking at levels of power where he can just blow up the entire planet if he wants.
Also FYI Iron man is Dr Doom, in the comics Tony Stark died so Iron man is a technical and magical powerhouse.
Now generally I would agree that DC heroes are far more powerful than Marvel heroes and that Superman can beat Thor even with Superman's weakness to magic. It doesn't really matter to me, for instance one my favourite heroes of all time (Hawkeye) is incredibly weak - but whether a hero is powerful is very different from whether a hero is interesting and fun to read.
The thing this trend doesn't hold true in two areas: Cosmic characters and Super-tech. In terms of super scientists and what they can accomplish, Marvel is ridiculous. Dr Doom has on at least 3 different occasions attained omnipotence or nigh-omnipotence. He can travel through time, dimensions, space and configure weapons to fight enemies of basically limitless power - even gods - and other high level Marvel scientists do the same. The other thing Marvel tends to have its cosmic beings like Eternity, Living Tribunal, Master order, the Inbetweener as major forces that interact in the universe. They vary in power from "Incredibly powerful" to "omnipotent" and a lot of Dr Strange's history was being the character who got involved with these guys, fought them and was shown to be as powerful as them. Now more recently they've toned him down, but If we're looking at his greatest feats ever in the same way we're doing with Flash his power is basically "Limitless amounts of doing whatever the hell he wants."
On that metric I say:
1) If characters are fighting at their peak taking into account all historical showings, Dr Strange is so overpowered he could take all of the Justice League PLUS all the rest of the Avengers singlehandedly and you have to bring up some Superman is a fourth-dimensional superstory type reasoning to counter this.
2) If characters have time to plan, Iron Man or Strange can win because the stuff they can do with a bit of time is so absurd. Like Dr Doom could literally go to a different universe and then destroy the initial universe type absurd.
3) In a straight fight based on their existing normal power levels, DC wins. DC has more people at a generally high level of power and especially with Dr Strange weakened at the moment due to the whole death of magic story-line and losing the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme, he can't be the Trump Cardd.
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Therefore, you are not balancing it by weakening Dr, Strange, you're merely rigging it for JL.
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