There's a massive amount of misinformation on the World Wide Web today concerning Race versus Ethnicity. My post today aims to correct and inform the would-be ignorance toting Race Mongers.
1. Latino: No matter where you search, any official definition or meaning of the word "Latino" will include the word "Ancestry" or "Origin". From an intellectual standpoint this excludes the word "Latino" from describing any Race simply because a Human's Race cannot be determined by his place of birth. There are White people born in Africa and Black people born in China. Birthplace does not affect your Race...period. From an official standpoint, "Latino" is definitively used to describe your ethnicity "Regardless" of your race ~U.S. Census Bureau~
2. Hispanic: Again we're right back to "Ancestry" or "Origin". Officially the word is used to again describe people who's origin is of one of several Countries and is completely and totally exclusive from Race. ~U.S. Census Bureau~
3. Mexican: Now we're getting somewhere...but then again we're stuck at a similar answer. Being "Mexican" has nothing to do with your Race, if it did then anyone with citizenship in Mexico would qualify as one Race. A "Mexican" is someone who holds citizenship in Mexico, Mexico is a geographical location on the Earth and therefor cannot be a Race.
So unless someone suggests that all Latinos or all Hispanics or all Mexicans are one single Race...then we are left with accepting that none of these words aptly identify any Race at all. If both my parents were born in Mexico and gave birth to me...I would in fact be Hispanic...even though my skin is white as snow.
I would suggest as an idea that people with dark or light brown skin who's lineage follows Hispanic or Latino ethnicity do not have a Racial identity unless you count the term "Mestizo". I'll be honest when I say that I have never, ever heard anyone use that term to describe a Race of people but it is a legally and officially recognized term that aptly describes people of mixed-race who typically come from Central and South American Countries.
"If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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@johannarunel Is there any reason you think that these words identify a Race?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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- Walt Disney
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Mexican denotes someone from Mexico.
I can only guess that Hispanic refers to someone from a South American country which was settled by the Spanish.
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Ethnicity is the term for the culture of people in a given geographic region, including their language, heritage, religion and customs. To be a member of an ethnic group is to conform to some or all of those practices. Race and ethnicity can obviously overlap, but they are distinct.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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Since our current classification of Race is skewed, we're going to have to establish something before we can really address the Race issue and that is that, by definition, Race is synonymous with Ethnicity. This is a problem because logically the idea of Race and Ethnicity being one and the same does not make sense. How is it that Race and Ethnicity can be the same thing if you can be Black (Which is a Race) and simultaneously of pure European Decent (Which is an Ethnicity)? The answer is: "It's not possible to be both Black and European if Race and Ethnicity are the same thing". By definition, you would have to be one or the other, you could not be both otherwise Race and Ethnicity would have to be separate from each other and independent. So let us understand that Race and Ethnicity are totally separate because everyone here can concede that it is VERY possible to be both Black and European.
And @Coveny , every classification system in the world is a Construct...including "Humanity" because we designated ourselves as such and there is no empirical evidence to suggest that our classification was correct...it just is because we all agree that it is. And your suggestion that ancestry has anything to do with your Race is off target, if 10 generations of Caucasian breeding resulted in a Black child...the child's Race would in fact be "Black", the ancestry has nothing to do with what physical characteristics the child inherits from recessive genes. Your "Race" is determined by YOUR distinct physical characteristics...not those of your ancestors.
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Without classification of any sort, we wouldn't be able to identify which snakes are venomous and which ones aren't. Que death by venomous snake bite due to an inability to identify a deadly animal. I love that logic btw...seriously. And I'm afraid I disagree, just because there are Humans in our world who use the classification system to stereotype...that doesn't mean the system itself was created for nefarious purposes. This logic that you've provided would be the same logic that dictates that ANYTHING used by Humans for nefarious purposes should be deemed evil. This is a classic case of blaming the pencil for grammar error, blaming the cheeseburger for obesity and blaming guns for violence...I respectfully decline to agree with any of that logic.
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http://www.theemotionmachine.com/the-us-vs-them-mentality-how-group-thinking-can-irrationally-divide-us/
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"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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"@Vaulk No classification of a living thing is about stereotyping." Your statement here indicates clearly that you believe that "Classification of a living thing" is about stereotyping. Since by definition, Race is in fact a classification, then YES, you DID claim nefarious intentions because stereotyping is nefarious by definition. It's negative and cannot be applied in a constructive manner.
Why we need "Race" is more of a question of why we need "Classification" because "Race" is in fact a classification of Human Beings. So first, why do we need classification? The Scientific community is majorly responsible for the classification of living things and the reasoning provided for this is such: Classification is important because it allows scientists to identify, group, and properly name organisms via a standardized system (Linnaeus Taxonomy); based on similarities found in the organisms DNA/RNA (genetics), Adaptations (Evolution), and Embryonic development (Embryology) to other known organisms to better study and understand the new organism as a whole.
So to condense this in layman's terms, we use a standardized system of classification of living things in order to easily achieve identification of those living things. This explains the fundamental principle of classification and why we need it but doesn't address Race specifically so let's go there next.
Why we need the classification of "Race" is the same reason we need the classification of Nationality, Citizenship, Ethnicity and Genealogy. The classification allows us to easily identify Human Beings for a multitude of purposes. Firstly, we as Human Beings have a need to be individual, individuality is critical now just as it always has been. The idea that we should remove a method of identifying ourselves as unique just because a minority of the People of the Earth also use it to discriminate is without merit. Secondly, there is no denying that we are all different as a matter of empirical fact. Because we as Humans are all different in multiple ways, we all see the world differently and our Race and Ethnicity are both not only methods of identifying ourselves but are also part of the way we self-identify, the way we understand our history, our social institutions and our world. Race has several implications other than just being a method of identifying another person, for example: My Race is one of the defining characteristics of my culture, my social history, my Ethnic background. You cannot simply outcast a classification system that people have used since the beginning of time to self-identify just because there are people in the world who would use the system to stereotype.
In summary, Race is a social construct, with it we develop Racial Identity and Ethnic Identity...both of which are used by people to understand our social atmosphere, our individual history and the world that we live in today. Yes there are sick individuals that still try to use Race as a negative divider in our Society...but deleting a system of self-identification is not the answer to combating the ignorance that is discrimination and prejudice. Race very well may have been created to establish an order of superiority...but today's world that ideology is mostly frowned upon and we (U.S. Citizens) live in a Country that has made more progress towards Racial Equality than any other Country in the World.
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My statements
Classifications is about stereotyping
Stereotyping leads to a us vs them mentality because of primal tendencies
Race should be removed because it's not useful
Somehow out of that you got anytime you classify things it's for nefarious reasons. Nowhere in there did I say anything about intentions or reasons. As previously stated don't have to defend your strawman of my argument, and I'm not gonna...
We need classification, but it does not logically follow that we need the classification of race. Just because classification is valid, does not mean that all classifications are valid. Your logic is flawed. Yes the scientific community does mostly classify things, and we are classified as humans, or homo sapiens scientists have no phylum below that designation. (thanks for supporting my argument)
Race is not equal to any of those. Nationality is a political construct that has nothing to do with science, and could be removed as well. Citizenship is a legal status used by countries to track people, that's like saying we are classified by having a driver's license or not, Ethnicity has some uses, but they are weak. Genealogy is a joke, as we all go back to the same ancestors so it really doesn't classify us at all. Wait what? Where and how did you prove that classification allows us to identify PURPOSE?!?! Really? So I'm a black person how is my "purpose" different from a white persons? Wow I just can't believe you went ... there.
ROFL so classifying us into a group ... is a way it identify ourselves as unique?
Oh yes race is definitely a way you self-identify, and it has several implications beyond that. Not disagreeing with that.
Now on the point of culture, social history, and ethnic background however I will disagree. Please explain what white culture is, white history is, and white ethnic background is. Because spoiler alert English, Germany, Russians, etc, are all considered "white" and they are VERY different. There is no such thing as white any of that you're selling.
In summary, race is a social construct, with it people develop racial identity used to divide people with the same ethnic backgrounds. Both used to understand who to hate, and where they fit in the social hierarchy. It serves no purpose, and provides nothing but an illusory boundary to divide the human race. Race is all about the same people living slightly different distance from the equator and hating each other for it. There is rampant racism in this country.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/?utm_term=.de410011bd3e
But I guess you are "white" so it doesn't affect you...
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I would like to add that this debate can also morph to discussion regarding merits of affirmative action. If race and ethnicity wouldn't be relevant then notion of affirmative action would go away.
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"Classifications is about stereotyping" This means that Classification is on the subject of or concerning Stereotyping. This is untrue, classification CAN BE USED to stereotype, but that's not what classification is about. Likewise "Freedom of Speech" CAN BE USED to spew racist comments but that doesn't meant that "Freedom of Speech is about Spewing Racism"
And you're right, stereotyping does in fact lead to an "Us versus them" mentality and that ideology is nefarious in nature because it harms by design. And so, you have in fact argued that Stereotyping is what Classification is about...when the idea is absurd. If that were the case then Nationality (A person's country of origin) would be a form of stereotyping when it's obviously not. By your logic, identifying a person by their Religion (Because Religion has been and currently is a classification) would be stereotyping and stereotyping is wrong...so then identifying a person by their religion would be immoral. Can you not see the absolute absurdity of this argument?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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The meaning of the word "Stereotype" is: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment. Source: Merriam Webster's Dictionary.
Stereotyping has nothing to do with the precedence of something happening like "A mosquito bite". It's a widely known fact that Mosquitoes bite living creatures and suck their blood, there's no prejudice in the belief that a Mosquito will bite you given the chance...therefor the belief that a Mosquito will bite you is NOT stereotyping.
@Coveny Your use of the word stereotype in this context is incorrect at very best and at worst it's misleading, deceiving and very possibly an attempt at pushing an agenda through illegitimate means (Using a word under false pretense to prove a point. "Stereotype" does not mean what you've said it means. Your example of an established precedence of Mosquito bites is incomparable to what a stereotype actually is.
Also, attempting to compare the genetic defects of a Cat to the differences in totally different species of snakes...you're either lost on this or you truly are trying to deceive people into thinking you can logically make this comparison. Cats DO have four legs, sharp claws, SOME are nocturnal, and just because some are born with the genetic deficiency that prevents them from having all four legs or sharp claws...that doesn't mean their difference is the same as the difference between venomous and non-venomous snakes...WHAT?! You seriously tried to say that if two cats stood side by side, one with four legs and one with three, then that's the same thing as two snakes sitting side by side...one with venom and the other without...WHAT?!
To summarize: Stereotyping IS NOT defined as @Coveny has said it is which defeats a majority of his argument. Believing that a Mosquito will bite you IS NOT stereotyping. Minority Genetic abnormalities in types of animals IS NOT the same thing as different classifications of Species (Normal Cats and 3-legged cats VS Non-venomous and venomous snakes)...cannot compare, are incomparable and is a stretched out and twisted type of logic.
And Lastly: Just because you *Think* a word means something...that doesn't make it true. We don't get to change the meaning of a word in order to fit it into our agenda...that's called deception.
"Words mean things" ~Vaulk~
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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A mosquito is a type of insect. Did you see how that sentence defined type(from stereotype) and characteristics (from classification)? Crazy, right? But it get's worse…
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Hispanic, Latino, Mexican... all the same thing or simialar. They come from the same routes or relative ones. They simply live in different regions or some of them. It's like comparing a Texan, Californian and New Yorker, they're speech may be different and maybe some other things, but they all live in American and are relatively simialar.
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Opinion: A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Idea: An opinion or belief.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/idea
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/opinion
Now let's look at
Characteristic: A feature or quality belonging typically to a person, place, or thing and serving to identify them.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/characteristic
Idea is synonymous with opinion. So your question
The obvious answer is this: The idea of something is not necessarily based on fact or knowledge by definition. The characteristics of something are established features and qualities that serve to identify them.
Idea: Subjective
Characteristic: Objective
Again you're trying to force an opinion as if it's fact. You "Believe" that the characteristics of something are one and the same with the idea of that same thing. I respect your opinion. I do not however, respect any opinion that is presented as fact especially when presented with such brazen flawed logic.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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"not necessarily based on fact or knowledge"
So an opinion, ergo an idea, may be based on facts, or in other words ideas can be objective.Dare I take the next step and say that classifications are just ideas that have been proven in a more scientific way?
So let's take this back to the topic at hand. In your opinion "the image of white is subjective, and the characteristic of white is objective right? You are going to need to explain to me how my logic is flawed? Because the logic you are disagreeing with is the image white(visual), different from the characteristic white(visual). You are on the side that race is a characteristic not a stereotype. So tell me what objective "facts" to do you have for the classification "white" that turns it from a subjective (visual) to an objective (visual)?
Was this supposed to prove that my logic was flawed? Because I'm not feeling it, I'm feeling more like you're supporting my logic than discrediting it.
Wanna give it another go?
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The answer to your question is "No". Classifications are not just ideas that have been proven in a more scientific way. There is no reference that will say so and this cannot be deduced logically. An idea can be based upon objective thought but any opinion you draw cannot be objective because of the nature of objectivity.
Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Subjective: Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/opinion
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/idea
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/subjective
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/objective
Explanation: A fallacy is an incorrect argument in logic and rhetoric which undermines an argument's logical validity or more generally an argument's logical soundness.
In this case, you've presented the following:
1. Cats with more or less than three legs as opposed to Cats with four can be compared to Snakes that are venomous as opposed to snakes that are not venomous.
a. This is a clear case of fallacy. The reason it's a fallacy is that the difference between a Cat with four legs and a Cat with more or less than four legs is "Genetic abnormality" or a deficiency of some sort. While the difference between a snake that is venomous and a snake that is not is a difference in species. Certain species of Snake have venom and certain Species of Snake do not.
b. Your attempt to compare these two things that are unlike one another is the fundamental problem that creates the fallacy because no matter how you present the idea that they can be compared...it makes no logical sense.
2. If an idea is based on a fact, then ideas can be objective.
a. The idea that if your idea is aligned with a fact then your idea becomes a fact is a fallacy. An idea or opinion does not become fact simply because it is aligned with a fact. your opinion or idea may be factually based and they can be founded upon facts but they are not synonymous and they are not one and the same. There is no reference that will support this idea and you cannot logically deduce that they are the same.
Coveny said:
Color, as in the frequency spectrum and intensity of photons reflected (or emitted) by an object is objective and can be measured by a machine. Color measurement is a science, quantifiable and precise with the use of a spectrophotometer and has long been an established and indisputable method for determining the color of objects...including skin. This is an "Objective fact", which I believe you asked for.
https://www.astm.org/SNEWS/APRIL_2004/color_apr04.html
I Hope this helped.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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Ah so your not saying my logic is faulty in general just when I referenced cat's with three legs. Ok sure. Let's change it to a frog then, and use four legs, two legs, fins, gills, water only and amphibious
https://www.cuteness.com/article/four-stages-frogs-life-cycle
I was just looking for visual differences within the same species, and you are correct three legs is considered an abnormality. I concede that point, but not the arguement
Ok now lets get to your logical fallacy.
My statement is Ideas can be based on facts means that ideas can be objective
If facts are objective, and ideas can be based on facts then logically ideas can be objective.
You challenge this because you say ideas and facts can not be synonymous. Again I will use the visual of white. My idea of a white person is that they are white, and the fact is that they are white. The idea of the person and the facts are exactly the same in this case. This supports my claim. My claim is that facts and ideas can overlap in that an some ideas can be facts but being an idea does not mean that it's a fact any more than being a fact does not mean that it is an idea. You can not have it where the visual color of someone is both subjective and objective. So both the idea of a white person and the fact that they are white is either subjective or objective. I really don't care which you pick. Idea and fact are not mutually exclusive, you present a false dichotomy logical fallacy.
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We're going in circles here but:
Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/objective
By definition, something that is objective excludes opinions because objectivity is "Not influenced by personal feelings *Or Opinions* and representing facts". You can say that your opinion is objective, "My opinion is objective"...that doesn't make it true. This is an oxymoron, the statement contradicts itself because of the established meaning of the words used in the statement.
So no, you can not have an objective opinion because objectivity *Requires* the absence of influence by an opinion. This is logically sound. Now, you can in fact have opinions based upon facts, meaning that you developed your idea or opinion partially, largely, mostly or completely upon facts. The fact still remains that your opinion originates from within your mind and therefore is subjective by design and definition.
The Oxford Dictionary also includes that Subjective is: Dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/subjective
An individual opinion requires the mind of an individual and their perception for its existence. If you cease to exist, your individual opinion also ceases to exist...regardless of how much fact it was based upon. Ergo, your opinions are subjective but can in fact be *Based* on facts which are Objective and do not require the individual mind or perception for their existence.
A "Fact" cannot be changed.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fact
An "Opinion" can be changed.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/opinion
Opinions cannot be facts, because they can be changed while facts remain the same.
Your opinion can align with a fact. It is a matter of choice.
Facts cannot align with an opinion. Facts are immovable. If anyone believes that a fact aligns with their opinion, the case is actually that their opinion aligns with a fact.
Objectivity is: The quality of being objective
Qualities of being objective are: No influence by personal feelings, no influence by opinion, must represent facts.
“Opinion: statement of belief or feeling. It shows one’s feelings about a subject. Solid opinions, while based on facts, are someone’s views on a subject and not facts themselves.”
http://www.philosophersmag.com/index.php/tpm-mag-articles/11-essays/26-the-fact-opinion-distinction
To summarize again, you cannot have objective opinions because opinions are statements of belief and belief is subjective regardless of why you believe. Just because you believe in a fact, that does not make your belief a fact itself.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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Just because you maintain an idea of White, that doesn't mean your idea and the facts of color are one an the same. An idea is independent thought, facts are not subject to independent thought. Facts and ideas are not exactly the same in any case no matter how you spin it. You can align an idea to a fact but not a fact to an idea...this creates a distinction between facts and ideas that cannot be blurred.
Ideas cannot be facts, you have only to look at the meaning of the words to know it.
Source:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fact
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/idea
This argument is academic, there should be no contesting that this is true. It's sounding more and more like a bunch of opinions trying to ride along side the facts as if they're the same thing.
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Race is not needed, has no value, and causes nothing but harm. It is a way to divide the human race into smaller groups which, given the human mind, creates a tendency to form an us vs them mentality. The use of race should end.
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"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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I believe that they are races of cultures. They can not be classified as minority’s due to their large global and American population.
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I'm not sure I understand your response, are you saying that Muslims and Mexicans are types of races that belong to a larger culture and subsequently each Culture has it's own race or races?
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"White" people are from northwestern Europe. Latinos are largely Spanish/Portuguese or mixed Central or South American natives that speak Spanish or some mixture of it.
Middle Easterners are a race if not a very distinct one. Slavs another.
But in any case aren't we all of the human species. Should anything else matter save for historic research?
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So if I'm a Christian (Which I am) and I decide to convert to Islam and subsequently become a Muslim (Practitioner of Islam) then my Race becomes Muslim? So all Muslims (People that practice Islam) are one Race then?
And to clarify on your listing of "Hispanic". So if 10 generations of White people were born and raised in Mexico (Hispanic)...then they're not White? They're Hispanic instead?
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I honestly can't find logic in repeating my original post at the top. Your argument seems to conflict with mine but offers no logical reasoning or deduction to support your statements. So you've stated your contradictory views, you have the right to an opinion, however your argument is invalid without any supporting evidence for:
1. Arguing that your place of origin isn't worthy is preposterous.
I respect your opinion but saying that something's preposterous doesn't make it so. Please explain your premise.
2. Everyone knows what you're talking about if you say African, Japanese, Chinese, Indian or American Indian.
Again I understand your conclusion here and respect your opinion but what is the premise for this? I understand what you're talking about when you say African, you're talking about someone either born in Africa or someone who moved there and gained citizenship legally. African is not a Race of people, if it were then the color of my skin would be irrelevant if I simply moved to Africa and gained citizenship there. I'd be African and You would know what I meant when I said I'm African...right?
3. Middle Easterners are a race if not a very distinct one.
Same thing here, conclusion without premise.
4. But in any case aren't we all of the human species. Should anything else matter save for historic research?
Well you're correct that we are all Human and that classification is our Species. But to that argument...why should our Species classification matter? If Historic research is the only avenue in which Race is relevant, then why (Other than for historic research) is our Species relevant? Why the need for a Genus? Why look at our Family? Why an Order? The answer is simply because classification is a critical method for which multiple fields of research rely heavily upon for the overall advancement of Humankind and our world. Race classification plays a part in the medical field just as heavily as our Genus and Species classifications do. Certain races have predispositions to illnesses, diseases and cancers while others have natural immunizations to disorders or illnesses. Health disparities are well documented between different Races and include severe susceptibilities to Cystic fibrosis, Sickle-cell anemia, and Hereditary hemochromatosis.
Setting aside the obvious critical need for identifying race in order to properly look for and pre-screen for these things, there's also the need for physical identification. If Race is a classification of Humans by distinct physical characteristics but we decide that it's unneeded...then how do you describe someone that you don't know by name when you're in a racially diverse population? If someone came to you at a football game and told you that someone's child was missing and that you were expected to help look for the Child...would it be important to know what physical characteristics to be looking for when searching? Was the child White? Was the child Black? Was the child Mestizo?
When someone commits a crime and you witnessed it, if the perpetrator isn't apprehended immediately and the Police have to hunt them down...what's the first thing they ask you to do? Well if you don't know the Man or Woman who committed the crime then they're going to ask you to describe them. What if you said "She was a 5ft 4in Human wearing a white shirt with jeans with black shoes"? The cops would probably either give you a REALLY hard time about not attempting to describe the Race of the person or you'd be going downtown as a suspected accomplice. Race is important.
And FYI
They were all born in Mexico.
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Agreed, and heritage has nothing to do with race.
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http://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/361359-democrats-do-no-good-when-they-kick-hispanic-republicans-to-curb
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