Does Trump have an army albeit a secret one?

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

The question was a metaphorical one. There was no black/white proof to offer. 

Well, that´s the question. Why DO millions still support this man? I have theories. 1) ignorance 2) greed and 3) weak character = the unconditional trump supporter

And yes, my claim does imply that nothing in the world will change a Trump supporter´s mind. Does 91 indictments and likely imprisonment and an insurrection he incited ring a bell for you?

I do believe we have lots of MIND F__U__*_K_ing going on on this site.

If there is no proof, then there is nothing to talk about. I do not understand the metaphor of what it is. Does the army exist or not, and if it does, then how does one determine whether a given person belongs to it or not?

Your theories are far too primitive to be considered seriously. "Ignorance", "greed" and "weak character"? That applies to many people. What makes Trump supporters stand out? What particular features of them can you point out?

And how can you claim that "nothing in the world will change a Trump supporter's mind"? What evidence do you have of that? "Nothing" is a pretty serious noun. Not even if a broke Trump supporter is offered a trillion dollars in exchange for retracting their support they will do so? Why don't you test that theory by offering a few Trump supporters your entire wealth in exchange for voting against him in the upcoming election?

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

Oh, it is not surprising at all. Rather, it makes me assume that you do not have a lot of experience in life overall if you truly cannot understand how people may have a very different assessment of Trump's qualities as president than you. For one, under Trump the economical performance of the country was arguably best since Clinton - and while there is an argument to be made that Trump is not to be credited for it (this is actually my argument, and I have gotten under heat from a couple of Trump supporters on this website for it), is it that puzzling to you how someone can connect the two?

Well I do believe my life´s experiences are plenty. I am a good judge of character. I can sense weak minds and weak characters quite adeptly.

As I see it :  the typical trump supporter =  1) ignorance 2) greed 3) weak character

Trump lowered taxes for the wealthy indefinitely while he lowered taxes for the lower and middle class with a termination date of 12/31/25. According to many sources, Trump added $7.8 Trillion to our national debt.

And yes, I can connect the two in this instance:
The typical trump supporter =  1) ignorance 2) greed 3) weak character

https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/

President Donald Trump’s signature tax bill,26 enacted when Republicans gained control of the White House and both houses of Congress in 2017, will have cost roughly $1.7 trillion by the end of fiscal year 2023. These tax cuts reduced personal income tax rates and permanently lowered the corporate tax rate, among other changes. Despite being paired with a further expansion of the child tax credit, the 2017 changes also largely benefited the wealthy, once again making the U.S. tax code significantly more regressive.27

Trump certainly has created quite a personality cult in the best traditions of "soft-authoritarian" countries such as Italy under Berlusconi or Hungary under Orban. Yet the anti-Trump cult that sees evil conspiracies and hidden agents everywhere is no less atrocious. In human history quite a few monstrous regimes were created as a result of people believing that, to oppose a specific evil, anything is justified. The original authoritarian regimes were typically much softer, than what was created in opposition to them. Trump is just a very good showman; if people who oppose him the most come to power, though, it will be a true nightmare. Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris as president? Yuck...

The anti Trump cult? Didn´t know about that cult. I just thought Americans who don´t support him is because he´s a fraud. And we don´t like fraudulent POTUS´s.

As a non trump supporter and knowing many other non trump supporters, I can tell you none of us believe in conspiracy theories. Ha ha

For someone who´s all over improper debating tactics, you sure have broken the rules.

As I said, there´s lots of Mind FU____*King going on here.

You have made false claims about people on this website so many times that I cannot take your claim at all seriously. Even now, you assert that I am "all over improper debating tactics", while I have not a single time brought up this point - a couple of guys who have a crush on me have accused me of that trying to get my attention, but I have never accused anyone.

There is a cool table here https://www.investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-percentage-7371225 showing how much the US debt increased under different presidents. Trump's increase is below Obama's and Bush'es (percent-wise Obama's was twice Trump's); appears to be a relative success.

A bit strange that you connect tax cuts to poor economical policing, when cutting taxes is the most standard economists' recommendation for boosting a struggling economy.

I think that different Americans do not support Trump for different reasons, and part of them do not support them in a cult-like way, which is what I was pointing out. Strange that you call many of Trump's followers cultists and acknowledge that not all of them are, but struggle with accepting the same reasoning when talking about his opponents.

Honestly, I think that a lot of what you write here is just rationalization of your emotions. There does not seem to be a lot of logical substance to your arguments, as I mentioned on numerous occasions. Many people (including you) treat politics like some kind of sport following, where you support teams against other teams and have fun, but do not particularly care about the facts and reasons of various phenomena. In football, it does not matter if Team X is objectively better prepared for the match than Team Y - "Hey, Team Y must win because it is my team!"
I have no interest in this kind of politicking. I care about good and bad arguments from the logical perspective, and you know which group I attribute yours to.

Let me emphasize this once again: I do not support Trump, I think that he was a horrible president, and I see his reelection in 2024 as highly undesirable - I was rooting for DeSantis or Ramaswamy personally. However, criticism has to be substantiated. Unlike many people, me disliking the guy's presidency and certain personal traits does not make me any more willing to accuse him of things he is not demonstrably guilty of. In general, I do not think that holding grudges and letting negative feelings towards someone fly about is useful: it just drains your emotional energy and puts you in a low mood, in exchange giving you a short-term satisfaction (that does not even feel that good).
If I met Trump in real life, I would be very interested in talking to the guy, getting business tips from him, hearing about his experiences and struggles. Something tells me that many of the people who despise him to extreme level cannot even see a human in him; they just see a target, a boxing bag to throw their personal frustrations at. I remember someone on some late night show seriously asking, "Trump is president right now. How can we raise children in such a world?" Yeah, Trump is totally responsible for you not knowing how to raise children in a world where you do not like your president.

Argument Topic: Sure okay.

@Factfinder

Argument Topic: Of course your babbling doesn't make sense. But are you admitting here you hope biden gets away with all his crimes because he's a socialist?

@Factfinder

Yes! I am hoping that the dirty sleepy old man mr. gropey little girls hands will get away with his crimes!  Especially because hes a dirty lib socialist . I  think he plays with the clintons in their pizza basement too. dirty libtards. 

having fun yet?

I'm sure your serious. @Openminded

@MichaelElpers

Society went down the tubes when gays came out in the open. I´m okay with them, but in private is better. Some of us get uncomfortable when we see that. It´s just natural I guess. So a religious, nuclear family is always best. If you do find out one of your children are gay, then I would say have them see a psychologist. 

Openminded said:

@MichaelElpers

I agree with you on values and the nuclear family. The traditional nuclear family where man and woman are married. And I´ll go further in saying I believe that one parent should always be home to raise the children. Preferably the woman as they are just more natural at this traditional duty. Life was much better when women stayed home. They were the glue that held the family together. Dinner time was always important starting with prayer. Two parent families are always best even if the couples fight and can´t work things out. We should never encourage men or women toward autonomy. We all need to mate. Independence should never be encouraged. The traditional nuclear family is safe, reliable and easier for sure.

Spoken like a true socialist. 

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

Correct. The trump tax cuts will go away and your slimy commy friends will no doubt shrink the size of the middle class again. My legit source backed up my argument trump policies are better for the working class. And you inadvertently agreed with here without realizing it. 

I´m not quite sure what you mean with the above? I said the Trump tax cuts for middle class will end but did not break it down - ALSO the lower and working class tax cuts will end on 12/31/25. The tax cuts for the wealthy will continue. So no trump´s tax cuts will also end for the working class. He giveth the little guy a carrot to suck on and then he´ll taketh away while continuing to enjoy his life long tax cuts or until congress changes this.

Because I'm truly openminded; I stand corrected. Thank you, thanks to the lefts policy making they've made the 1% more wealthy than the middle class. I see you think you've learned how to apply another new term...

How did the lefts´ policy make the rich wealthier? Hah?

The fact you'd vote for the perverted child groping America hating slimy commy in chief we have now tells me all I need to know about liberals.

Sweet J_E_S_U_S. The media has you so far from grounded. He´s a grandpa and grandpas love their granddaughters and other little children. I was sitting on my Grampa´s lap when I was 10. My Grampa kissed and hugged me as he did my sisters and cousins. Leave it to a trump supporter to turn a lovable old grandpa into a pervertion. Everything is nefarious to a trump supporter it seems. Has the media done this to you? Do you actually believe that Biden gropes children? Can you discern truth from fiction?  Will you be able to weed out the AI-generated robo calls coming your way? You better start learning to see truth for truth and evil for evil or youĺl be so lost in life. AI is here. Learn to think. Gullible, unable to discern truth from doctored photos, vulnerable.

Yes, character matters...

The character of the president certainly matters. Just as the character of the voter matters. You asserted that you are willing to vote for Trump even if he´s a slimy character. That to me explains the weak character of his supporters.

America is truly F__C K ED if you are representative of the average Trump voter.

The children he was groping were not his grandchildren, or nieces. They were children he saw for the very first time. How vial. The fact you vote definitely speaks to the decline of character, the current president's and his voters. 

Openminded said:

@Factfinder
You´re probably right. If they were his own grandchildren, he could touch them affectionaltely.
You´re right/ He must be a groping grandpa. We have to watch out for them.
Beware of the groping grandpas!

So were you always okay with strange men you don't know groping you "affectionately"? Or did you cringe and pull away like those poor innocent girls did? Just curious.

Argument Topic: Do you have anything to add based in reality @Openminded? You do know this is a debate site and not facebook, right?

@Factfinder

I´ve responded to you with much substance in many instances. You respond back with whataboutism by posting silly memes and nasty name calling which MayCaesar curiously does not catch in her oversight.

I would like you to please answer my question.
Do you believe, beyond a doubt, that Biden gropes children?
Here´s your chance to prove that you actually are not atheist, but Christian as your cross you wear around your neck may suggest.

Argument Topic: So were you always okay with strange men you don't know groping you "affectionately"? Or did you cringe and pull away like those poor innocent girls did? Just curious.

@Factfinder

So were you always okay with strange men you don't know groping you "affectionately"? Or did you cringe and pull away like those poor innocent girls did? Just curious.

No, I am not okay with groping. Biden did not grope. He touched in a grandfatherly way. Now, he is also of a generation of men who need to learn that this is frowned upon now. It is a generational gap. Biden is old, the children are young. But for you to claim he is a groper is just ignorant.

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

I´ve responded to you with much substance in many instances. You respond back with whataboutism by posting silly memes and nasty name calling which MayCaesar curiously does not catch in her oversight.

I would like you to please answer my question.
Do you believe, beyond a doubt, that Biden gropes children?
Here´s your chance to prove that you actually are not atheist, but Christian as your cross you wear around your neck may suggest.

You do not respond with much substance. You do not answer questions directly. For instance when have I posted a meme? When you call names, I respond in kind. So the "name calling" is a half truth on your part.

Of course you want me to answer another leading question for wit you will use to make false claims. That's your mo.

Yes biden has groped little children. Acknowledging that fact has nothing to do with my views on religion. You know where I stand on that because I said as much on my profile. I'm an apostate of christianity and am now atheist. 

Please, now answer my questions with  'yes' or  'no' answers. Then follow up with your reasoning. If it were trump in those video clips would you be defending his actions right now as a loving grandpa? The way you defend biden after seeing the uncomfortableness of the children who pulled away from biden?

Argument Topic: Please research and get back to me on this. I am very interested in your reply.

@MayCaesar

I changed my mind and did an unbiased search. The first one ¨Did Trump cheat his workers?¨ The second one ¨Trump never cheated his workers.¨   You will have to try it yourself as pasting in here proves to be tricky .

Openminded said:

@Factfinder
Surely, you can see the irony in my traditional family values?

I do not know anything about any such "irony" in your traditional family values. 

I do know you once again failed to answer a question directly. Would you defend trump the same way you defended biden after he groped those children he didn't know? You saw as everyone seen the children awkwardly trying to get him to stop. I'm a grandpa and I do not treat children that way and neither does any other grandpa I know. So, would you defend trump, or any conservative for that matter? Or does your special pleading only come out in defense of socialists?

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

The question was a metaphorical one. There was no black/white proof to offer. 

Well, that´s the question. Why DO millions still support this man? I have theories. 1) ignorance 2) greed and 3) weak character = the unconditional trump supporter

And yes, my claim does imply that nothing in the world will change a Trump supporter´s mind. Does 91 indictments and likely imprisonment and an insurrection he incited ring a bell for you?

I do believe we have lots of MIND F__U__*_K_ing going on on this site.

If there is no proof, then there is nothing to talk about. I do not understand the metaphor of what it is. Does the army exist or not, and if it does, then how does one determine whether a given person belongs to it or not?

And yet, we continue to talk about this army you seem to be curious about. Starting from Jack´s OP asking if Trump has an army, a secret one, I believe that Trump´s metaphorical army is here lurking on this sight. And I may venture to say that perhaps MayCaesar is a loyal foot soldier applying mind f__k to all unwilling to fall in line - all who do not submit to soft¨ fascism. Proof? Got none. Just instinct and experience as Jack likely has - with dealing with people who have strayed from reality as a result of trumpism.

Your theories are far too primitive to be considered seriously. "Ignorance", "greed" and "weak character"? That applies to many people. What makes Trump supporters stand out? What particular features of them can you point out?

Well let´s consider Hitler and his army, his real foot soldiers, the Nazi officers who rounded up and exterminated millions of Jews. What do you believe contributed to their subservience in following their leader?  Am I comparing Hitler to Trump? You bet I am. Certainly the weak character of his followers comes to mind. Germany´s dissatisfaction with economic depression and political instability lended Hitler (a narcissist like 45) a very vulnerable society and one most easily manipulated. Hitler, a charismatic speaker (like 45) who targeted Jews and Marxists (as 45 does to the ¨illegals¨) as being the reason for the  Germans´ woes. Nationalism was pushed as the goal to save the Aryan race from extinction. (45 said immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country.) German citizens (metaphorical for foot soldiers, his followers) had a savior to fight for them. He was going to fix everything. They fell in line and encouraged others to fall in line. Sound familiar? Being of WEAK CHARACTER (lacking strong conviction, beliefs, morality) to stand up to an evil ruler who exterminated millions of Jews.

Now GREED?  This character trait is one especially unsettling for me as I believe itś a major contributor to what ails America. I believe millions of educated, informed and ¨good¨ citizens that will vote for Trump the 3rd time are quite simply greedy. They seemingly have their blinders on to block out the heinous acts of a president (taking babies from migrant parents to deter immigrants from coming in), ignoring their president´s words like ... military veterans are losers and suckers, turn the other way when their president asserts to his citizens to try putting a light inside their bodies to kill the virus, says that women who have abortions must be punished, and on and on. I believe Greed is the worst trait. These are the ¨good, educated, informed¨ Americans who put money above all humanity. GREED.

When I speak of IGNORANCE I mean no disrespect. We are all ignorant in many ways. IGNORANCE is a trait I would apply to the forgotten American citizens who struggle to make ends meet and whom Trump said he was working hard for. ¨I alone can fix it.¨  Ignorance = lack of knowledge, education or awareness. Their woes are understandable. One might say that they were so vulnerable and hence bedazzled by Trump´s promise of fixing everything for them (tax cuts = woohoo! but tax cuts will end for them - do they know this? likely not). Many view Trump as fighting for religion. Really? Do they understand he is far from a religious man? And yet the many Evangelicals believe he is the Second Coming. Ignorance. Having a belief that the 2020 election was stolen even after numerous republican AGs, lawyers and SCJs deemed it legitimate. Ignorance. Perhaps delusion is the consequence of ignorance? Perhaps delusion should be added as a trait of a Trump supporter. They´ve reached the point of no return back to reality. And that is scary.

And how can you claim that "nothing in the world will change a Trump supporter's mind"? What evidence do you have of that? "Nothing" is a pretty serious noun. Not even if a broke Trump supporter is offered a trillion dollars in exchange for retracting their support they will do so? Why don't you test that theory by offering a few Trump supporters your entire wealth in exchange for voting against him in the upcoming election?

Well I certainly have gained an ugly trait myself due to Trump´s presidency. Pessimism and loss of hope.  Since ¨nothing¨ cannot be proven, I´ll just reiterate: if evidence that the 2020 election was legitimate and 45 still pushes the lie, 45´s incitement of an insurrection against the government, 45´s 91 impending indictments and his chaotic and fraudulent presidency doesn´t tip the scale, then it appears nothing will. II´ll not entertain your other silly notion.

We do? I have yet to get from anyone a proper definition of that army and the set of criteria that puts one into it.
Calling me, someone who debated many Trump supporters here and ascribed very damning traits and actions to the guy well before you joined this website, a "loyal foot soldier" - illustrates my earlier point: that you are have a very poor understanding of the human mind.
In my view Trump is the worst Republican candidate on offer. That, once again, does not significantly affect my objectivity in consideration of particular claims made about the person. This is what distinguishes us: I am a thinker, and you are a feeler.

I think comparing Hitler, an ideological fanatic, to Trump, a self-interested manipulator, is not exactly correct. Hitler had a vision of eternal Reich fighting for world dominance, while Trump does not seem to have much vision beyond tomorrow's newspaper headlines when it comes to politics. That said, cult leaders do all share some traits that these two individuals have as well.
I did not catch how greed factors in someone's vote for Trump. The guy wants to slash taxes and reduce welfare programs; it seems more reasonable to attribute greed to those voting for Democratic candidates who all want to expand welfare programs and handouts.

Your last point is quite sad... You allow external events to change who you are. Look at me: I have lived through two actual brutal dictators - not this stuff you guys here in the US call "dictators", but people who kidnap and murder journalists, jail their political opponents, fund special police that shakes up random people. Do I sound pessimistic and grumpy? I am happier than I have ever been, and get increasingly happy every day.
Blaming your emotional state on politicians is like blaming your obesity on abundance of fast food. No one forces you to react this particular way to what is out there: you choose it yourself.

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

"Not fit for any leadership position"? The guy has run a large number of businesses in the highly competitive field of real estate development, organized a few shows, ran a successful presidential campaign in the wealthiest country in the world (and, by the looks of it, is about to do so again).

I would like to hear of the comparably reach leadership experience that allows you to issue such a strong verdict.

Let me clarify my statement for you. He is not fit to be leader of any position that requires integrity, strong character, honesty and humaneness The Presidency is the most obvious position. Without those traits, he will never be successful. Is he successful now? One must wonder as we see his $$$$$ slowly being stripped from him. What gets stolen from others, will eventually be returned to others - society.

Now surely MayCaesar, with your intelligence, you must know how he pilfered off his workers for decades? I would be glad to offer some insight if I knew you would be willing to read it. But I´m guessing you know this already. 

I am aware of certain complaints, lawsuits (some successful) and allegations against him; yet the performance of his assets speaks for itself. Not sure what you meant by "with your intelligence": I am not a real estate developer and do not have a very deep insight into proper ways of running organizations in the field. Do you?

With most of your first paragraph I actually agree. I would, however, add that, while he is certainly an outlier in both politics and the business world when it comes to honesty and integrity (the guy often seems to just make stuff up on the fly), it is not clear to what extent these qualities are important in the specific positions of leadership we are discussing. Politicians tend to be almost exclusively dishonest, and one could argue that the most dishonest ones gain the most popularity due to the perverse incentives created by the political system. Integrity is probably important everywhere where you have to deal with other companies/governments - if you lose someone's trust, you simultaneously lose a lot of economical and diplomatic opportunities with them - but, again, when lack of integrity is so prevalent, perhaps its extreme absence is not that unacceptable.

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

What I immediately saw was 1) The title ¨Biden Groping Children Compilation. This is not normal.¨ Also shown were cherry-picked images of his face close to a young girl. This may appeal immediately to someone who is easily influenced by pictures. The meme title was clearly meant to incite and provoke by power of suggestion. 2) A photo shoot of families with young children and an old man out of touch with the new generation of my body--hands off girls. An old grampa who loves children, but forgot the rules.

In these scary times we´re in, political discourse, left vs right, technology that distorts, 24 hour news, and now AI-generated audio and visual messages, we must be careful and learn to discern truth from reality.

So if I saw Trump in the exact same video, would I defend him? Yes. 

Now, if I had other reasons to believe that a man´s inappropriate touching of a young girl, perhaps. Like, say, when I heard Trump during an interview being asked about his own daughter. There would still have to be quite a bit of evidence to back up the allegation. The video below may sway me a bit more but not completely

Once again I must correct you and tell you no meme was used on my part. It is now and remains a video depicting the true nature of biden. I do not believe you would ever defend trump. The fact that you claim trump saying his daughter is both smart and beautiful and any guy would be lucky to have her; would "sway" you MORE into believing he groped someone than a video actually showing biden groping little girls "sways" you into thinking biden has groped, leaves for little doubt that you would ever defend trump. And is cause to question your judgment.

Argument Topic: This is what distinguishes us: I am a thinker, and you are a feeler.

@MayCaesar

You are correct. I am a feeler. And you say you are a thinker.
Do you believing ¨feeling¨ people can still be intelligent?
Do you believe ¨thinking¨ people can still have empathy?

@MayCaesar

Correction - Surely, Trump does not need to seek the presidency three times to be in the newspapers. Heś enjoyed decades of newspaper and tabloid mentions.

Argument Topic: For someone who never answers a question you sure ask a lot.

@Factfinder

Argument Topic: "Not fit for any leadership position"? The guy has run a large number of businesses in the highly competitive field of real estate development, organized a few shows, ran a successful presidential campaign in the wealthiest country in the world (and, by the looks of it, is about to do so again).

@MayCaesar

Argument Topic: Trump is a manipulator with no real moral code, but he is not a butcher. Being a butcher requires specific sociopathic traits that he does not appear to have.

@MayCaesar

The list of common traits you might see in someone who has antisocial personality disorder, says Dr. Coulter, include:

• Not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
• Not respecting the feelings and emotions of others.
• Constant lying or deception.
• Being callous.
• Difficulty recognizing emotion.
• Manipulation.
• Arrogance.
• Violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
• Impulsiveness.
• Risk-taking.
• Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

Some with sociopathy may not realize that what they’re doing is wrong while others may simply not care. And sometimes, Dr. Coulter says, it can be both.

I am afterall a feeling person with emotional intelligence.  Surely you yourself being a recovering empath should understand this also - we can recognize the signs of evil. 

@MayCaesar
Blaming your emotional state on politicians is like blaming your obesity on abundance of fast food. No one forces you to react this particular way to what is out there: you choose it yourself.

Openminded said:

@Factfinder

Now this is a blatant lie. To put in quotes that I said ¨I´m a lying trumptser christian¨ is disgusting. I never said that. MY antics?

I wasn't quoting what you said. I was anticipating how the conversation might go if I answered your set up question without an explanation. Now you're going to pretend you can't follow a conversation, or are you not pretending? Hmm, yes your antics. 

And judging from your first response I was right to suspect your nefarious motives behind your questioning. Your antics.

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/9535/does-trump-have-an-army-albeit-a-secret-one/p2

• Not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
• Not respecting the feelings and emotions of others.
• Constant lying or deception.
• Being callous.
• Difficulty recognizing emotion.
• Manipulation.
• Arrogance.
• Violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
• Impulsiveness.
• Risk-taking.
• Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

Argument Topic: Oh, my God! Openminded is a sociopath!

@Bogan

Oh, my God!     Openminded is a sociopath!

At what age did your emotional growth stop at?

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar ;

I did not catch how greed factors in someone's vote for Trump. The guy wants to slash taxes and reduce welfare programs; it seems more reasonable to attribute greed to those voting for Democratic candidates who all want to expand welfare programs and handouts

Greed. Voting for the candidate that will make one richer while disregarding the plights of society.

Trump did slash taxes for the working, lower and middle class and set them to stop at the end of 2025. He also slashed taxes for the wealthy forever (or until congress ends them). The CBO believes that Trump´s tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations will add another $3.5T more to the deficit. 

Now why is it greedy for Democrats to vote for programs that help the marginalized? I´m interested in your comments on this.

Well, who is it who votes for Democrats? Who do you think "the marginalized" vote for? And "greed" goes beyond material considerations; one might, for instance, vote for someone because the resulting policies make them feel warm inside. Feelings are also currency, and it is quite an assumption on the "left"'s side that moral considerations are somehow "higher" than material considerations. Everyone ultimately votes for what they believe will benefit them. No one ever votes for something, or does something in general, with understanding that it will make them more miserable.

Let me also blow your mind: you can vote for something that makes you richer... and then use your riches to help the marginalized - at your own accord. Surprising, right?

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

That is very different from someone like Hitler or Lenin, people who purposefully wanted to drown Earth in blood in order to build their version of the paradise. Trump is a manipulator with no real moral code, but he is not a butcher. Being a butcher requires specific sociopathic traits that he does not appear to have.
He would not be able to do what Putin does, for instance. He is not wired that way.

He is not a butcher - YET.

I disagree vehemently with you on not having sociopathic traits.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/sociopath-personality-disorder

What are the traits of sociopathy?

The list of common traits you might see in someone who has antisocial personality disorder, says Dr. Coulter, include:

• Not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
• Not respecting the feelings and emotions of others.
• Constant lying or deception.
• Being callous.
• Difficulty recognizing emotion.
• Manipulation.
• Arrogance.
• Violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
• Impulsiveness.
• Risk-taking.
• Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

Some with sociopathy may not realize that what they’re doing is wrong while others may simply not care. And sometimes, Dr. Coulter says, it can be both.

I am afterall a feeling person with emotional intelligence.  Surely you yourself being a recovering empath should understand this also - we can recognize the signs of evil. 

You disagree with me because, as usual, you did not read my comment carefully. I was talking about specific sociopathic traits that lead to one becoming a butcher, not sociopathic traits in general. See how careful I am with my language, and how little respect for care and precision you have?

My positions are quite nuanced, and I am not interested in picking a "side" in an argument. You are trying to argue against me, but I am only arguing against irrationality and illogicity.

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar
Blaming your emotional state on politicians is like blaming your obesity on abundance of fast food. No one forces you to react this particular way to what is out there: you choose it yourself.

I thank you for pointing that out. What I meant to say was SINCE trump´s presidency, I´ve gotten more pessimistic and less hopeful. SINCE his presidency. I would never blame my state of mind on a president.

You would be hard-pressed to point out anything any particular politician has ever done that has significantly affected your life. Look around: you are (I presume) a young energetic woman, living in one of the safest and most prosperous countries in the world, having one of the best citizenships in the world allowing you to travel almost anywhere visa-free, having access to incredible job market, the highest-performing stock market in the world... Getting new technology every month that people a few decades ago could not have dreamed of. And yet you are getting more pessimistic and less hopeful because of one guy?

I encourage you to try this experiment: stop reading the news for just a month. Just... withdraw. Do a temporary informational diet. You might be surprised by how much happier you will be, and you will never want to get back to obsessing about silly political things.

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

Sure, one does not exclude the other. However, logic is what gets one to the truth, not feelings. Feelings can be a reward in themselves, and they can point out an existence of the problem -  but the problem then is to be tackled with logic.

I agree with this assessment. But in order to get one to the truth, the problem needs to be revealed first. A ¨feeling¨ person´s intuition will likely get to identifying potential problem areas more quickly, then tackling the solution can commence. To me, without ¨feeling¨ people, ¨thinking¨ people could conceivably live less restrained lives. And vice versa. Without ¨thinking¨ persons, the ¨feeling¨ person may conceivably live less restrained lives.

"I am feeling uncomfortable in this relationship" is an expression of one's feelings. "I am uncomfortable in this relationship because of X, and Y must be done to remedy it" - is a logical follow-up to it. Without the logical follow-up, no progress can be made.

Now this of course is dependent on the problem. If you´re talking math problem, then perhaps a thinking person will likely be more valuable. If you´re talking problems that involve human emotion, then the feeling person will likely be more valuable.

I know first-hand the danger of letting empathy run unchecked, for I am an empath. I have been taken advantage of by people many times when I let my empathy flow, dismissing obvious signs of manipulation. 

This is puzzling to me MayCaesar. You being an empath, it seems you´d recognize the danger of a 3rd Trump presidency to humanity, and yet, something just doesn´t add up. But sigh, perhaps my feeling side won´t allow me to exercise my thinking side. Or perhaps your thinking side has concealed your feeling side?

Nowadays I do not think that feelings should ever take precedence. No matter how strongly you feel about something, your feelings might not correspond to reality, and if you go by them and dismiss reality, then said reality will smack you in the face.

In an ideal world, a balance is always the best. Ideally, feelings should not be exercised without a thinking component and thinking should not be exercised without a feeling component. And when talking about humanity, your thinking side might not correspond to reality. The dominance of one or the other can be equally harmful. 

Feelings are a dangerous source for intuition. If you want to develop a good intuition, you have to study hard and learn about the world, so similarities between different phenomena form models of meta-phenomena in your mind that you can draw from. Feelings are only useful in telling you that there is a problem. If I feel unsafe while walking on a street, then something is off, either in my perception of reality, or in reality itself. What it is - that is impossible to determine without logic.

I do not think that feelings are any more helpful when talking emotion-driven problems than math problems. Can you give an example of where you think the opposite is the case?

I recognize the danger of many scenarios to humanity, and I strongly suspect that the scenarios many people despising Trump would want to occur are much worse for humanity than his presidency.

Lastly, I really dislike the concept of "balance". There is no such thing as balance between murder and non-murder, for example. One should understand the domain of applicability of feelings, and the domain of applicability of logical thinking. There is no such thing as "too much thinking" or "too much feeling", but there is such thing as "overthinking" and "succumbing to feelings".