to the religoius

Plaffelvohfen

@maxx

however, once history is lost, it is very difficult to bring back.

In this case, it's not history, it's fantasy with some historical references... And if you actually want to go to the origin of this fiction story, it's the original Torah you should look into... In the Torah you'll find references to Sheol, where it is described as a region “dark and deep,” “the Pit,” and “the Land of Forgetfulness,” where human beings descend after death. The suggestion is that in the netherworld of Sheol, the deceased, although cut off from God and humankind, live on in some shadowy state of existence.

While this vision of Sheol is rather bleak (setting precedents for later Jewish and Christian ideas of an underground hell) there is generally no concept of judgment or reward and punishment attached to it. In fact, the more pessimistic books of the Bible, such as Ecclesiastes and Job, insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free man... And there is an underlying sense of eternity in Sheol as it is described as the permanent place of the dead. Not until the Second Temple period do we see a more diverse set of ideas developed...

maxx

im not sure free will would be revelant in this case; had they not sinned none of the plan god had would have began playing out; jesus   supposedly came in this world to atone for the original sin and assuming if adam and eve did not sin there may not have been a jesus. however another interesting conjecture would be what if adam never listened to eve and only eve sinned. would everything still play out and all humanity be born in sin for just the sin of eve?@Vaulk

maxx

I was talking about the earliest church leaders, not judisim however the word sheol is very tricky once you look into it, I wont post a link for I doubt it would get read; still sheol is the place where the dead return to, basically the bodies. the grave demand the bodies; there is 2 ideas about what happens to the so called spirt or soul of the body. one it is trapped for some time until it is eventually released or 2, the soul does not enter into the neatherworld, just the zombie like bodies. either way the bodies are what remains. thje definition from that point gets very vague; it goes back to where to where the living consults with the dead ancestors, pulling them from the groiund from where the bodies returned to. the word sheol may or may not have been borrowed from the early Egyptians in which it simply meant death and the pit which the word is  eventually refers to among the ancient Israelites was the hole or grave where the dead were buried.  I assume from that point, the word sheol changed its meaning many times to where and what people believe that it represents today. @Plaffelvohfen

Dee

@maxx

****aside from the catholics being first, before christains, all you are doing is reading the bible on how it is translated today, not how it was originally written.

I’m not , originally written by who? All you’re doing is referring to Tyndales mistranslation 

*** simple as that. you are acting just like a religious individual that you so quickly deride; you wont face the facts nor look it up because you do not want your cherished beliefs to be ruined.

I’ve no “cherished beliefs “ regards a book of I leave that to you and other nuts 

maxx

yeah yeah yeah, go drink your cheap wine and pretend to be articulate and all knowing some where else. at least these other posts are more scientific instead of mad rants@Dee

Plaffelvohfen

@maxx

I was talking about the earliest church leaders, not judisim

But if you want to go to the origins, you have to go to the jewish roots as Christianity stems from it... 

maxx

sure  and if we want to go even farther, back to egypt and the Japanese and even all  the way back to the origins of superstitious cause and affect. basically as I pointed out if one traces the concept of hell back it eventually just means a place where the dead returns to, the grave, My OP was not about this of course, I was just pointed out to dee that according to early writings that god does not condemn people to hell forever, if you wish to try to convince that there really is no concept of hell in the bible, feel free. Ione of her biggest hang-ups is how could an loving god condemn people to an everlasting torture; she refuses to believe that it once did not.@Plaffelvohfen

Dee

@maxx

****was just pointed out to dee that according to early writings that god does not condemn people to hell forever

He does , and in his own words. You keep ignoring what I’m asking as in originally written by who?

****if you wish to try to convince that there really is no concept of hell in the bible, feel free. 

Make your mind you’re saying there’s not now you’re saying there is are you on drugs?

***Ione of her biggest hang-ups is how could an loving god condemn people to an everlasting torture; she refuses to believe that it once did not.

Who is she? God of the Bible always did , you’re mistranslated Tyndale is of no consequence in this thread 
@Plaffelvohfen

Dee

@maxx

***yeah  yeah yeah, go drink your cheap wine and pretend to be articulate and all knowing some where else.

I don’t drink cheap wine , I guess this is another case of you talking about yourself as you and your mum share your daily bottle or two of plonk 

 ****at least these other posts are more scientific instead of mad rants

Scientific bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha, right so scientists are debating about eternal Hell fire now , are they the same scientists that “verified “ the inhabitants of Atlantis had T V sets as you buddy Edgar Cayce stated ?

maxx

im not in that post as of now so I wont defend or state anything about it whiled discussing another post; if you cant stick to proper debate protocol by staying upon the subject then you have no reason to be on such a site@Dee

Dee

@maxx

****im not in that post as of now so I wont defend or state anything about it

Because you cannot as usual 

****If you cant stick to proper debate protocol by staying upon the subject then you have no reason to be on such a site

You mean like where you accuse me of drinking cheap wine and being mad? That type of protocol?
 

maxx

I am just replying in kind; go back and look at what you said to me.  now go bore some one else, you are about as articulate as rock with a lisp@Dee

Sand

God did not know Adam was going to sin against him.

He looked up the future after Adam's sin.

God explains how he doesn't always look up every event's future.

Jeremiah 18:2-10 - "Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. “At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. “Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. “So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’

relent = change one's mind

Jeremiah 26:3 - "It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds."

Jonah 3:9 - "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."

God doesn't always look up the future in every event.

He may change his mind depending on how we as humans make choices.

Will he give life to Adam and Eve, he could.

Remember his goal is to give everlasting life to everyone, nevertheless, it is God's choice.

It is best to try to understand God's thinking than to criticize it.

Isaiah 45:9 - "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?"

Dee

@maxx

****I am just replying in kind; go back and look at what you said to me.

I said you were a plastic comb salesman living in his mum’s basement .....The truth does indeed hurt it seems 

  ***now go bore some one else,

You mean like you bleating on about your butt buddy  the con man Cayce? Also despite being asked you cannot state the “original” version of the Bible you’re referring to because you copy and paste can article like the dummy you are without checking what it actually said 

****you are about as articulate as rock with a lisp

Ehhhh rocks don’t have ....lisps at least not on Earth but I forgot you like Cayce believe in Atlantis where anything is possible?

maxx

let me ask you a question dee; what do you believe in?  hmmm? it is obvious that you do not believe in religion so what?  science?  you know very little of science which is why you never post or answer questions on anything but religions. are you versed in science?  let you prove it. we can get together at same time and answer each other in real time, without the ability to look anything up. you choose the subject and the time; here on line. I challenge you flat out here in front of everyone. put up or or everyone on here will know you as a fraud@Dee

Dee

@maxx

****let me ask you a question dee; what do you believe in?  hmmm? 

Hmmmm......I believe in exposing charlatans , quacks and frauds for a start , 

People like let me see hmmmm....Oh yes , Edgar Cayce who believed in Atlantis and that the inhabitants of this fictional place watched T V 

Also I believe that New York was not destroyed by a “death ray “ like you and Cayce believe or that California is no more as it slid into the sea , also I don’t believe eating raw rabbit skin ( plus the fur ) cures cancer 

**its obvious that you do not believe in religion so what?  

Is it? Yet I do believe that there are religions , do you mean I don’t believe in a god , tell me then what’s my position on whether there’s a god or not .....bet you cannot answer?

****science?  you know very little of science which is why you never post or answer questions on anything but religions. 

Right , but maxx knows all about science which is why he believes eating raw rabbit skin (plus the fur ) cures cancer . 

Also when questioned you hide , I destroyed you in every one of you debates .....you cannot answer what is the earliest Bible you were referring to?

Your infinite regress debate I beat in 10 words.

You refuse to tell how rabbit skin cures cancer etc, etc  

By blatantly lying you just prove every time  you’re a coward who when cornered flees , I have posted a load of debates on non religious subjects and answer most non religious topics

***are you versed in science?  

I’m an expert 

****let you prove it. we can get together at same time and answer each other in real time, without the ability to look anything up. you choose the subject and the time; here on line. 

Right so , you better book a ticket to Rome say 12 noon Friday I will meet you at the airport 

Don’t worry about me spotting you as I will keep an eye out for an obese yank wearing a red baseball cap , a white T shirt with the words , Pro god , Pro Gun , pro Life and carrying a much thumbed copy of Edgar Cayce on Atlantis 

***I challenge you flat out here in front of everyone. put up or or everyone on here will know you as a fraud

I’m waiting .......Regards frauds you wouldn’t know how to spot one as you believe the biggest ever as in your butt buddy Cayce was genuine 

BTW were you home schooled by a drunken parent your spelling is atrocious .....

The title of two of your debates below 

to the religoius

Scarey 

Dee

@maxx

maxx

yeah,    I figured you would turn it down.  I said here on line  I am in central time zone. we correlate your zone with mine and have it in real time.  fraud@Dee

Dee

@maxx

****yeah,    I figured you would turn it down.

Yet I gave you an invite bring Cayce along to (his spirit) that is 

  ***I said here on line  I am in central time zone. 

Nope , you never mentioned it you chicken 

****fraud Cayce 

Yes I agree


I note as well you failed to answer any of the several questions I asked at least the whole forum can see you’re a dummy who cannot defend itself as well as being a coward 

maxx

look it up,  it says online and you fail to pick the subject.  all you are doing is showing everyone on here that you can not handle a debate in real time. all you seem able to do is deride others for their religious beliefs and insult others. Apparently you refuse the challenge for you would fail miserably.  and by the way  since you keep bringing other things up so as to redirect your failure to accept my challenge, show me where cayce said anything about raw rabbit skin, and perhaps use punctuation in your posts.  once again the challenge stands, here online, at the same time; pick the subject. do you accept it or not?  @Dee

Dee

@maxx

*** look it up, 

I did , so stop lying 

****it says online and you fail to pick the subject.  

I picked several subjects , remember my questions you couldn’t answer?

****all you are doing is showing everyone on here that you can not handle a debate in real time.

Yet I crush you every time 

**** all you seem able to do is deride others for their religious beliefs and insult others.

I don’t , when they make statements like you I ask them to back them up they cannot just like you. I insult no one I call it as it is , I called you an one only has to look at your stupidity in print to realise my assessment is correct 

 ***Apparently you refuse the challenge for you would fail miserably.

Apparently I didn’t , and failure is all yours Mad Maxx , tell me what TV stations did they watch in Atlantis?

  ***and by the way  since you keep bringing other things up so as to redirect your failure to accept my challenge

You haven’t made a challenge , you have refused 11 times now to answer even one of the 5 questions I asked because you’re to .

****show me where cayce said anything about raw rabbit skin,

I thought you claimed to be an expert on Cayce? 

****and perhaps use punctuation in your posts

This from an who looks like an advertisement for the reasons one should use a condom Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha.....I pointed out your junior school spelling mistakes and that’s your reply Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

.  ****Once  again the challenge stands, here online, at the same time; pick the subject. do you accept it or not?

I will humour you take your pick from these .....

Maxx claims Atlantis existed .....Debate 

Maxx claims psychic phenomena exists ....Debate 

Maxx claims the Tyndale Bible is the only correct version and the earliest .....Debate 

Maxx claims the Atlantians had TV .....Debate 

Maxx claims some people have supernatural powers .....Debate 


There ya go mad maxx are you gonna chicken out ?

maxx

I said pick a science subject and we debate it in real time. You refuse to and no amount of flapping your gums will show it. I’m just blocking you. You are an @Dee

Dee

@maxx

****I said pick a science subject and we debate it in real time.

You said pick any subject I want and you chicken out , you also fail to answer despite asking 21 times now statements you made but cannot back up 


 ****You refuse to and no amount of flapping your gums will show it. 

I refused nothing , you think science is telepathic powers , remote viewing and crystal gazing and you said science proved such now as usual you flee like the coward you are when asked to debate it 

****I’m just blocking you. You are an

Says the guy who believes they watched T V in Atlantis Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

RickeyD

@maxx

The eternal destiny of Adam and Eve was settled at their death in Time. Whether or not Adam/Eve professed "faith" in God and found righteousness (a right standing) with Him is between God and our first parents. The Scripture does point to Enoch and Abraham as having attained righteousness with God via their faith but nothing of the sort concerning Adam and Eve.

One interesting point to consider is the prophetical scenario provided us by the Holy Spirit involving God and Adam-Eve and redemption in Genesis 3:21 "The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them." Genesis 3:21 (NASB)

Here we see Adam and Eve, subsequent to their rebellion to God's edict to not compromise with evil, being clothed in righteousness (symbolically in skins) by our Creator. Though Adam and Eve attempted to cover their sin, shame, nakedness, with fig-leaves, God slew an innocent animal and the blood from that animal flowed upon the ground and God took the skin(s) of said animal and covered the nakedness, shame "sin" of Adam and Eve - God did this work Himself without the assistance of man.

This is the first prophecy in Scripture explaining the blood atonement for sin that God would perform Himself in Jesus and that the works of mankind (fig leaves) would not produce righteousness but only by faith in Messiah's innocent shed blood at the Crucifixion would mankind receive the imputed righteousness of Messiah-Jesus over our lives. Was this scenario also one of salvation for Adam and Eve? I don't know.