What do we do with MAGA?

Bogan

@Dreamer quote   Republicans since Reagan have cut social welfare programs.......

when you are paying mo-rons like these then that sounds like a good idea to me. 

Example 1.     The Daily Telegraph 10/11/14

• 38 family members claimed $2.1 million in Centrelink benefits
• One claimant paid almost $1 million into a bank account over 11 years
• Dept of Human Services investigators found a network of fake claims

THIRTY eight members of the same Western Sydney family fraudulently claimed more than $2 million in Disability Support Pension and other welfare payments.

One person claiming income support paid $300,000 off a mortgage in just over two years, while another claimed support despite earning an undeclared income from owning three properties. The web of family fraudsters was uncovered following a tip a dodgy Western Sydney businessman had failed to declare his income.

Department of Human Services investigators found a network of fake claims from the businessman and 37 of his family members and cut welfare payments to 19 people and referred five to the Director of Public Prosecutions. “From a single piece of information, the ­department’s specialist fraud team uncovered a web of people dishonestly claiming payments,

Example 2.     The Australian on 29 October, 2007.     Peter Saunders

 Australia's welfare lobby is at it again. In a report issued last week, an alliance of welfare groups claimed that more than 11 per cent of Australian households are living in poverty, and that their numbers are rising.

The Uniting Church president described this as scandalous. A St Vincent de Paul activist said it shows the need for a national vision instead of piecemeal programs. And the head of the Australian Council of Social Service came right to the point by demanding more funding for essential services.

Working people in this country are paying tax to support more than 700,000 disability support pensioners, about 600,000 welfare parents, nearly half a million unemployed and two million aged pensioners, not to mention more than three million families claiming Family Tax Benefit.

While unemployment figures are at 30-year lows, total welfare dependency is at record highs. A workforce of 10 million is supporting two million welfare claimants of working age, plus another two million aged pensioners. The cost is phenomenal: more than $70 billion on social security and welfare payments alone. Yet ACOSS says we should be spending even more.

Few Australians begrudge helping those who really need support, but they do resent paying for people who could be supporting themselves. Research a few years ago found 56 per cent think the welfare state makes people less willing to look after themselves, and only 34 per cent want more of their taxes spent on welfare benefits for the" poor."  

Example 3.   Black African man fathers 31 children.

 (26) Court Cam: Judge Reprimands Father of 40 CHILDREN (S3) | A&E - YouTube

Example 4.     Man fathers 21 children by 11 different women... and he's only 29

A man aged 29 has fathered 21 children with 11 different women, it emerged yesterday.

Desmond Hatchett's brood came to light after authorities in Tennessee in the U.S. took him to court for non-payment of child support.     He has apparently set a U.S. record but said: 'It just happened.'     He's the daddy: Desmond Hatchett speaks to reporters about his prolific brood    He added that he would not have any more children. 'I'm done. I'll say I'm done,' he said.     Hatchett, who earns a minimal wage, told TV reporters he knows the names and ages of all his offspring.      Their ages range from newborn to 11 years old.    Authorities in Knoxville said they plan to take half of his monthly salary to pay for the youngsters but officials said that would work out to just over £1 a week for each.     His lawyer Keith Pope said: 'The children can't all be supported by Desmond, so the state of Tennessee has had to step in.' 

 

Dreamer quote ...... while giving tax breaks to the rich and big corporations.  

Sounds like a good idea to me.    

Example 1.    Welfare spending.      "The Australian" newspaper,  Thursday, March 28th, 2013

 Australia 16% of GDP on welfare and 2% of GDP on defense.       6 million private sector workers support 6 million people on welfare.       819,000 people are on sickness benefits.

In France,  France 30% of GDP is spent on on welfare

Example 2.      The "rich" are sick of being squeezed.  

In Australia,   the top 25 per cent of taxpayers in terms of their taxable income contribute about two thirds of all the income taxation revenue - and that in general their share has been rising over time, while the poor pay very little. Sure, you say, but that is because we have a progressive income taxation system. As it happens, I agree. But surely the better off are already doing a lot of heavy lifting, aren't they? There's some real inequality here.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: This is why I started making 1v1 debates now I am arguing with three people. You are nitpicking.

Disinformation vs misinformation

The type of reasoning you use makes it almost impossible to prove anything. I could say person x spread disinformation. Then, you can ask oh well can you peer deep into their mind and soul and know for sure they were deliberately lying?

This is where I can break down into steps whether it was misinformation or disinformation. Courts do this all the time. Did the person have knowledge? Was harmed caused? How did the person benefit from spreading the falsehood? 

If the person for example was to be harmed more than gain, this would be disconfirming evidence and point to misinformation.

A good example is in Merchants of Doubt the tobacco companies internal documents. MayCaesar this is impossible expectations. For all your use of logic with no evidence nor sources your logic is often overtly flawed.

As for Trump, did he have knowledge, cause harm, and benefit? Triple yes.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Do you have a source, "Did you know that the majority of babies aborted are female?"

@just_sayin

This wouldn't surprise me, if it were true. Can we please make a separate topic for just abortion, otherwise we can end up in angry chaos?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: The middle class is the one who is being squeezed.

@Bogan

If you want to learn about myths and welfare I recommend this article. If not, its your loss, I am not going to perform unpaid intellectual labor and summarize it for you.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/20/255819681/the-truth-behind-the-lies-of-the-original-welfare-queen

There are malicious criminals. Some of them cheat the welfare system. Yet, to use this as excuse to cut welfare spending is deceitful and immoral. We need better safeguards to prevent welfare cheats, yes. Yet, too often bad political actors use welfare con artists to reduce benefits.

Children in the USA suffer from food insecurity due to inflation caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Some of these children stop gaining weight and stop growing, failure to thrive. What do the Republicans do they complain that sending supplies to Ukraine the breadbasket of the world is costing too much. This is why I say Trump doesn't care about poor people.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/1-year-war-ukraine-affecting-food-supplies-prices/story?id=97320422

I seriously doubt rich people are paying 2/3s of taxes. Rich people can simply move to another country like they did in France. The very rich don't have income per say but live off capital. The association between hard work and wealth is tenuous at best.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/private-equity-apollo-blackstone-kkr-carlyle-carried-interest-loophole/

Instead the plutocracy uses private equity and leveraged buyouts to gut healthy corporations, take all the cash reserves, load them up with debt, sell all the assets, declare bankruptcy, and call it a win as the stockholders make a lot of money. This is pure extraction and kleptocracy. 

At least you have sources now that is a start.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Dreamer's double standard

@Dreamer
The famous quote goes 'if liberals didn't have double standards, then they would have no standards at all."  Over and over again, you have defended 'your teams' racist, unethical, poverty inducing, oppressive policies, while claiming MAGA is evil for trying to stop these immoral policies.  Can't you see how unethical the policies you support are?  For example:

1) Failing to secure the border.  By failing to secure the border there has been a rush of illegal workers into the US.  Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.  Even the extremist LaRaza and Washington Post admit that unlawful entrants routinely commit felonies.  As the Hill notes:

The vast majority of illegal aliens use fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers.  They possess fake drivers’ licenses, phony “green cards,” fraudulent birth certificates and any other documents that U.S. citizens and legal residents have.  In addition, they falsify I-9 forms under penalty of perjury. Thus, the average illegal alien routinely commits multiple felonies –forgery, Social Security fraud, identity theft, and perjury.

The Social Security Administration and New York Times report that approximately 75 percent of illegal aliens have fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers which is a felony.

However the real victims of these felonies are poor unskilled workers, especially young Black males.  Even the ultra left-wing-nut extremist Obama Administration's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration found that the average Black worker's wages were reduced by $1,000 - $2,000 annually due to illegal workers.  Their pay is less because they are competing with illegal labor.  This reduces their pay and their negotiating power.  Yet @Dreamer's team says for poor Black guys to 'know your place and shut your mouth ' about how illegal labor hurts them.   

Why do you hate poor Black men so much?  Don't they deserve that $1,000 to $2,000 a year more that the policies you support are taking from them?  What did they ever do to you to deserve to be treated this way?

2) Minimum wage hikes that disproportionately harm low skilled workers, Blacks, and those with a prison record.  Several minimum wage studies have shown that when a minimum wage law goes into effect that the people they say the law was designed to help, those making minimum wage, are the ones most harmed by it.  A Seattle study showed, that after the minimum wage rise went into effect, that it reduced the average monthly income of those who had been making minimum wage by $125.  Over a year that's $1,500 less.  What happened is that employers reduced their hours, their benefits, and in some instances cut jobs.  This especially harmed the least skilled, and those with prison records, as employers now had less incentive to take a chance on them.  As the study author noted the least skilled, and those with records, had now become unemployable in the new market reality and the rungs needed for them to climb the ladder of success had been removed.  Yet Dreamer supports 'his guys' and gives the finger to young Black workers yet again.  Why do you hate young Black guys just trying to get ahead for?

3) 85% of Black parents support school choice.  They know it may be the only hope that their child gets a good education.  Yet, Dreamer's team, the Democrat Party, opposes educational freedom and insists on keeping poor Black children chained to failed public schools.  In DC, the poor kids who go to a voucher school have a 25% greater likelihood, than their educational counterparts who were not lucky enough to win the educational lottery, to graduate and go to college.  We all know why teacher's unions and Democrat party members, who get big donations from teacher unions, want to keep Black children chained to failed public schools.  But just how is it to the benefit of that poor Black child?  Yet again @Dreamer has sided with those who support harming poor Black people.  

I'm seeing a trend.  Dreamer thinks that when MAGA supports policies that help Black families they are the enemies.  

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Disinformation vs misinformation

The type of reasoning you use makes it almost impossible to prove anything. I could say person x spread disinformation. Then, you can ask oh well can you peer deep into their mind and soul and know for sure they were deliberately lying?

This is where I can break down into steps whether it was misinformation or disinformation. Courts do this all the time. Did the person have knowledge? Was harmed caused? How did the person benefit from spreading the falsehood? 

If the person for example was to be harmed more than gain, this would be disconfirming evidence and point to misinformation.

A good example is in Merchants of Doubt the tobacco companies internal documents. MayCaesar this is impossible expectations. For all your use of logic with no evidence nor sources your logic is often overtly flawed.

As for Trump, did he have knowledge, cause harm, and benefit? Triple yes.

My expectations are only impossible because the claim you made was unjustified. The stronger the claim you make, the more difficult justification of it becomes; if you make an indefensible claim, then justification becomes impossible.

The claim that "person X does not care about the poor" is very strong and absolutist, and evidence in support of it has to be truly extraordinary. That you are unable to provide it suggests that your claim is unfounded. And that you do not see it, or do not see a problem with it, suggests that truth is not what you are seeking here.

I am not sure if there has ever been a single person on Earth who did not at all care about the poor. It would have to be some extremely abnormal psychopath that lacks an entire part of the nervous system that even primitive insects seem to have. Is Trump such an abnormal psychopath? Well, it is up to the person making the claim to figure out, not to me.

Bogan

@Dreamer

Dreamer quote  If you want to learn about myths and welfare I recommend this article. If not, its your loss, I am not going to perform unpaid intellectual labor and summarize it for you.

 Then what are you doing on a debate site?      This is a debate site, not a link exchange site.    Perhaps you could convince the author of your article to join Debate Island, and then I will debate with him/her ?

 

Dreamer quote      There are malicious criminals. Some of them cheat the welfare system. Yet, to use this as excuse to cut welfare spending is deceitful and immoral. We need better safeguards to prevent welfare cheats, yes. Yet, too often bad political actors use welfare con artists to reduce benefits.

 1.        There are more than just a few people who cheat the welfare system.     Australia provides extremely generous welfare to any person claiming aboriginal ancestry.     So, the proportion of people claiming aboriginal ancestry just keeps rising exponentially.      In 1970, they were 1% of the Australian population, now they are 3.2% and rising.     What this means is that the welfare for “aboriginal” people alone equals the same amount spent on defense.

2.        In Australia, we call phony welfare recipients “dole bludgers” and this country is full of them.      A Russian news crew even journeyed to Australia to make a documentary about how many young and fit Australians live in lovely coastal towns where they live on the dole and go surfing every day.    The trick is to leave places where work is plentiful and go to places which are near a beach where work is scarce.   One coastal town in Queensland had over 2000 people on unemployment benefits, over 1500 on the disability pension, 600 aged pensioners, yet there were only 1258 men, women, and children in the town according to the last census.    

 3.       The aim of every dole bludger is to attain a Disability Pension which removes any obligation by the dole bludger to keep a record of looking for work, which can be tiresome.     Australia now has more Disability Pensioners that soldiers who were wounded in WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam combined.

 4.       While the number of people claiming public assistance never stops rising, the number of employers seeking manual workers keeps rising as well.    Like many other western nations, Australia now imports farm workers from the Pacific Islands to do the work that Australians do not want to do.       But the main aim of imported workers is to get Australian residency, so pregnancies among imported female workers is very common.     These “anchor babies”, born in Australia, give the imported manual laborer's a foothold to Australian residency.     Pacific Islanders in Australia are like African/ Americans and Hispanic Americans.     They are noted for the very high rates of welfare dependency and violent criminal behaviour.

 5.     Western welfare is unsustainable.     Allowing for Inflation, the GDP of Australia has doubled from 1965 (25.4 USD Billion) to 1371.8 USD billion in December, 2011.   Growth has averaged 4 % per annum in the past decade alone, increasing GDP by 50 %.   But something rather interesting happened in the intervening years.        Overall since 1965 the country is 2X richer, while the number on welfare is 5X. 

The ageing population would be one explanation.     But there are other reasons as well.      Importing poverty is an extremely relevant explanation, especially so because Australia is renowned for being extremely generous to “refugees’”

Afghans alone have employment rates of only 6% after five years of residence.     Iranians are the next group most at risk from long unemployment and poverty, with 88% still unemployed after five years.     In Europe, 80% of the Muslim population is on welfare benefits.    Angela Merkel summed it up nicely.     “ The reason for European stagnation”, she said, was because "Europe had 12% of the world's population, 26% of the world's manufacturing capability, and 56% of the world's welfare recipients."

In 1965, 3 % of the working age population in Australia was on welfare benefits of one sort or another.  Now 16 % of adults rely on welfare.  This is bad for them, bad for their children, and is financially unsustainable – ie bad for taxpayers.  Another take on this – in 1965 there were 22 taxpayers for every one person on welfare; now the number is 5. 

Extrapolate forward and you see a vision of Greece, Spain, Cypress, Ireland, France, and the USA, each with their own national insolvency problems.    The populations of these countries and their elected representatives were acutely aware of their financial insolvency, decades ago.   But like irresponsible creditors with a new credit card, they borrowed until they could borrow no more, and they wished away their problems until the bailiffs arrived.   The USA is now $32 Trillion in dept.     And Joe Biden and the Dems that you so admire are doing their utmost to bankrupt your country in their quest to stay in power, by buying the welfare dependent vote with money they borrow.   

 

Dreamer quote.    Children in the USA suffer from food insecurity due to inflation caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Dysfunctional minority children in the USA may suffer from food insecurity because their du-mb parents keep shoplifting from the local grocery store, or committing act of armed robbery at the store, or looting the store and burning it down whenever they want to express their anger at the police trying to stop them from doing all of these things.         They then complain about “food deserts” which they themselves created.   Get it through your head that the real reason for poverty is low IQ.    

  

Dreamer quote.   Some of these children stop gaining weight and stop growing, failure to thrive. What do the Republicans do they complain that sending supplies to Ukraine the breadbasket of the world is costing too much. This is why I say Trump doesn't care about poor people.

 I always laugh at the idea that dysfunctional minorities in the USA are the victims of poor nutrition, every time I watch a US crime show where some 6 foot 4 African/American has been arrested and convicted for some extremely serious crime.     Hey buddy.     I am a white person who is 5 foot 6 and  half, because as a kid, I did suffer from real protein deficiency.     And one reason for that, is because  Australian governments of both the left and the right, thought more about migrant welfare than they did for their own poor working class people, who were genuinely in real need of assistance.   

 

Dreamer quote   I seriously doubt rich people are paying 2/3s of taxes. Rich people can simply move to another country like they did in France.

 The problem for the USA and other European countries, is that they are doing just that.     When the people who are entrepreneurial and who provide jobs and taxes give up and move to another location where they are not taxed to death and tied up in red tape, then the place that they moved from gets poorer, and the place that they move too gets richer.   France's welfare is now costing an incredible 16% of their GDP and that proportion is rising.   

 

Dreamer quote   Instead the plutocracy uses private equity and leveraged buyouts to gut healthy corporations, take all the cash reserves, load them up with debt, sell all the assets, declare bankruptcy, and call it a win as the stockholders make a lot of money. This is pure extraction and kleptocracy. 

 You forgot to mention playing the “woke” card, bribing the Bidens, and other Democrats as well.     There are crooked businesses but when valuable immigrants to the USA like Elon Musk gives up and moves from a very high taxing, state like California, which has a bloated bureaucracy justifying it’s ever growing existence with ever more red tape, and an always increasing welfare dependent population, then you can hardly be surprised when valuable people like Musk go to another state where they are welcomed and taxed at a rate they consider more fair.      

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Trump not caring about poor people is not literal.

@MayCaesar

Humans are prone to talking in metaphors. We rarely talk in long winded technical jargon. This would only clutter up the forums. It is very likely that Trump is a psychopath and has no empathy at all, including empathy towards poor people. The fact that Trump lied 30k times in four years is proof of this.

Or how about people going after people who say the Earth is round. Obviously meaning to debate a flat Earther. Then, a third person joins in saying well technically the Earth is not round it is a bumpy spheroid.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-is-not-round/

Or the people trying to debunk the common myth that the Sun revolves around the Earth, amazingly 25% of Americans believe this. A third party getting all technical and saying the Earth revolves around the barycenter. This is all annoying technical jargon nitpicking with a clear conservative bias that protects the orange one.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: MAGA protects kids from Pedophiles

@Dreamer
I am always amazed at people who defend the indefensible when it is done by 'their team'.  For example, the Biden administration tried to remove a Betsy DeVos policy that required school districts to report all  teacher-on-student sexual assault allegations to the DOE.  This was purely for political purposes, to appease teacher's unions.  If you didn't know, the most dangerous place for kids to be sexually assaulted is at a public school, with DOE research showing that between 5-8 percent of public educators have sexually assaulted a minor (see https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/educator-sexual-misconduct-synthesis-existing-literature).  Biden tried to do the bidding of teacher's unions at the expense of sexually assaulted children.

Why would anyone not want to report sexual misconduct allegations that happened in a public school?  Fortunately, MAGA stood up to the pro-pedophile contingency, so Biden had to relent and allow the questions to remain in the annual form.  Yet, Biden took little heat from this incident, as pro-pedophile Democrats stood with him.  

How can you support a party that is pro-racist, pro-baby killing, anti-educational freedom, pro-illegal labor, anti-woman,  and pro-pedophile?  And what's most warped, is you think MAGA are the 'bad guys'.

Bogan

@Dreamer

Dreamer quote       Humans are prone to talking in metaphors.

 There ya are, Dreamer, we finally agree on something.     Metaphors are used to communicate thoughts because they draw pictures in the mind.

 

Dreamer quote     It is very likely that Trump is a psychopath 

 That is self evidently incorrect.    A Psychopath thinks only of himself and he will do anything to advance his own success.     If Donald Trump was a psychopath, he would run a woke company, suck up to the Dems, claim that he believed in anthropogenic global warming, bribe Democrat politicians in order to gain influence using Sam Bankmann-Frieds phony bank, and give retiring US administration officials high paying non jobs in his organisation.

 Instead, although he can live a life of luxury, he chose to stick his neck out and risk spending the rest of his life in jail for his country, and the people he considers to be the productive people of the USA.   That is not the behaviour of a psychopath.

Joe Biden, on the other hand, is definitely a psychopath.      Psychopaths are fluent liars which suits Joe to a "t".     A psychopath like Joe can give a speech to Romanian politicians warning them how destructive corruption is to a state, while engaging in corruption himself to the point of treason, without squirming and feeling uncomfortable while he says it.    A psychopath like Joe thinks nothing of selling out his own country to a hostile state like Red China, berceuse he knows that his corrupt cronies at the top of the US administration who are equally psychopathic, have got his back.  

 

Dreamer quote      including empathy towards poor people.

 I would opine that Trump has a lot of empathy for what could be called” the deserving poor”, but not a whit of sympathy for losers who just want to live on welfare because they are too lazy to work.    Unless you call looting stores, selling drugs, pimping, and robbing the local 7-11, “work”?      You know, the typical Democrat voter.

 

Dreamer quote   Or the people trying to debunk the common myth that the Sun revolves around the Earth, amazingly 25% of Americans believe this.

 I would say that most of them would be Democrat voters?     They are also so du-mb that they  think that a nation can spend it’s way out of debt. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Creationists can create lies faster than an evolutionist can debunk.

@just_sayin

Here's a less bias explanation of the changes. No, I don't understand the changes. Yet, it takes time to figure out  which side is more truthful.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/activists-increase-pressure-biden-scrap-betsy-devos-title-ix-rules-n1261017

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Here's a less bias explanation of the changes. No, I don't understand the changes. Yet, it takes time to figure out  which side is more truthful.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/activists-increase-pressure-biden-scrap-betsy-devos-title-ix-rules-n1261017

I can see how you would make this mistake.  This is a different issue you linked to.  The Civil Rights form is not the same issue as the Title IX rules.  

No, your site is not less biased.  What Betsy DeVos did was she made it so that men accused of sexual misconduct on campus would be able to know the charges made against them, and be able to defend themselves against such accusations.  This is a basic constitutional right that Obama took away from men on college campuses.  What has happened, and what the unethical Biden administration wants to continue happening is that men accused of sexual misconduct would have to appear before a disciplinary board without knowing the charges against them, and without any means of calling witnesses or mounting a defense.  The immoral Democrats began with a 'the woman is always right' mentality.  This is a perversion of justice, as all true just begins with the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.  Shame on you for defending this unjust practice.  Disproportionately, Black men have been victimized by this policy.  Many have been kicked out of school, and only later was it found out that the accuser had made up the charges because of some petty tiff between the two.  

The more you attack MAGA and defend your team, the more I am convinced that your team is the real enemy of the people.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Humans are prone to talking in metaphors. We rarely talk in long winded technical jargon. This would only clutter up the forums. It is very likely that Trump is a psychopath and has no empathy at all, including empathy towards poor people. The fact that Trump lied 30k times in four years is proof of this.

Or how about people going after people who say the Earth is round. Obviously meaning to debate a flat Earther. Then, a third person joins in saying well technically the Earth is not round it is a bumpy spheroid.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-is-not-round/

Or the people trying to debunk the common myth that the Sun revolves around the Earth, amazingly 25% of Americans believe this. A third party getting all technical and saying the Earth revolves around the barycenter. This is all annoying technical jargon nitpicking with a clear conservative bias that protects the orange one.

There is a difference between a metaphor and a factual statement. "Trump has set the US politics on fire as if he was a fire-breathing dragon" is a metaphorical statement; "Trump does not care about the poor" is a factual statement. And absolutely, someone who says that "the Earth is round" is factually wrong, and if one wants to refute an argument of a person who believes that the Earth is flat, the least they can do is to not start out with an objectively false statement.

As for the "Sun revolves around the Earth" being a myth - in what way is this a myth? When we say that something revolves around something else, we mean that in the frame of reference centered at the latter object the former object's trajectory, when projected onto a plane, experiences the 360 degree rotation repeatedly.

I think that your examples here backfired a little, and the hole you were digging for yourself just got a little deeper and wider.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What kind of technical jaragon gibberish are you talking about? The sun doesn't orbit the Earth.

@MayCaesar

Europeans have even more buffoons than Americans.

"at least when it came to the sun and Earth question. Only 66 percent of European Union residents answered that one correctly."

https://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I wouldn't trust Betsy Devos

@just_sayin

I will say one good thing she resigned in response to Trump's involvement in the capital hill riot.

“There is no mistaking the impact your rhetoric had on the situation.” Betsy DeVos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_DeVos

Other than that she is extremely rich 5.4 billion family net worth according to Forbes and the richer you are the more self-justified you are in your beliefs and more likely to commit the just world fallacy. Took the anti-vaxxer route calling for reopening of schools despite spike in cases and children being hospitalized and dying from covid. In favor of withdraw from Paris agreement. Extreme libertarian.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-pandemic-deniers-and-the-antivaccine-movement-an-unholy-alliance/

DeVos family organized operation gridlock a superspreader event. 

"Even before, but certainly with this new study, it is fairly clear that one of the most effective methods for minimizing the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic is to limit large gatherings. This one step can prevent superspreader events, which can reduce the spread of the virus by as much as 80%." Novella

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/superspreading-events/

The Devos family is comparable to the Koch Brother's in libertarian influence. Giving the illusion of grassroots support for Michigan Freedom fund.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/05/20/michigan-lockdown-protesters/

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Europeans have even more buffoons than Americans.

"at least when it came to the sun and Earth question. Only 66 percent of European Union residents answered that one correctly."

https://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/

Have you even read what I wrote? The statement that "Sun orbits Earth" is technically correct. If getting this question incorrect is what defines a buffoon, then, my friend, you have just voluntarily put a very nasty label on yourself.

This is the price with which these hasty illogical claims come: trying to berate others, you end up burning yourself.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Instead of addressing the fact Biden wants to not allow college men to be able to know the sexual misconduct charges against them and to be able to call witnesses in their defense, you attacked Betsy DeVos for protecting their rights.  How is a personal attack on Devos relevant?  This seems like yet another example of 'I'll defend my team even if what they are doing is indefensible'.  Do you really agree with Biden that Black college men shouldn't be allowed to know the exact charge that has been made against them, and should not have the right to call witnesses in their defense?  

This has become an ugly trend.  In this thread you accused MAGA of being the 'bad guys' but you have defended:

1) Racist policies which discriminate against whites and Asians in college admissions, employment, promotions, getting grants and contracts.  
2) Pro-baby killing.  Not just supporting abortion, but when pressed on the post-birth Abortion Survivors bill that would require a newborn baby girl to receive the same medical attention that any other baby of that gestational age would, you defended Democrats opposition to providing a newborn medical attention.
3) Anti-educational freedom.  You have refused to speak out against Democrats who want to keep poor Black children chained to bad public schools rather than allow them to attend voucher schools.
4) Illegal Labor.  You stood with Democrats who support taking between $1,000 - $2,000 a year out of a poor Black man's pocket by promoting illegal labor.
5) Pro-pedophile policies.  You have attacked Betsy Devos rather than condemn the Biden administration for trying to remove a law that would require states to report sexual misconduct against children by educators.  Ewwwwww/  

Is there no evil thing that you won't defend, if it helps your political party?  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: You just keep bringing up more arguments and false accusations than I can adquately respond to.

@just_sayin

Exposing the flaws of the source and author are legitimate tactics and not ad hominems.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

Exposing the flaws of the source and author are legitimate tactics and not ad hominems.

No, it really isn't.  Any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue.  What you may think about the individual does not prove nor disprove the topic.  That is irrational.  

I've gone through some  specific policies that are unjust and immoral - none of which MAGA tends to support, but Democrats do.  Here are a few (both old and new points):

• Democrats support racist policies which discriminate against whites and Asians in college admissions, employment, promotions, getting grants and contracts.  
• Democrats support Pro-baby killing.  They voted against the post-birth Abortion Survivors bill that would require a newborn baby girl to receive the same medical attention that any other baby of that gestational age would, you defended Democrats opposition to providing a newborn medical attention.
• Democrats do not want poor Black children to have educational freedom.  Democrats would rather keep poor Black children chained to schools which have been bad for 50 years or more than than allow them to attend good voucher schools. 85% of Black parents support voucher schools.  Democrats stand with teacher's unions instead of these kids though.
• Democrat's policies enable Illegal Labor.  Just look at how many unlawful entrants have been deported under Biden.  You stood with Democrats who support taking between $1,000 - $2,000 a year out of a poor Black man's pocket by promoting illegal labor.
• Democrats Pro-pedophile policies.  The Biden administration for tried to remove a law that would require states to report sexual misconduct against children by educators because teacher's unions wanted to protect their own.  That's just wrong.  
• Democrats want to silence parents who speak out at PTA meetings.  A parent may have a valid point, or may not, but silencing them is just wrong.  The number 1 book parents have asked to be removed from grade school libraries is Gender Queer which has sexually explicit images and graphic sexual content.  It shows images of minor characters performing sex acts, it has an image of a naked adult male holding the junk of a minor boy, and has discussion on how to finger you butt for pleasure.  Over 90 percent of people upon learning of the content of the book agree it should not be in public grade school libraries, but Democrats do.  Apparently providing children knowledge of how to finger butt holes is very important to them.
• Democrats stand by Biden's energy plans which have contributed to inflation.  The average family is paying $709 dollars more a month now for the same things than they did when Trump was president.  And Democrats support polices such as mandating EV cars now, which will only add to the financial burden of poor people.
• Democrats want to hide a child's gender transition from their parents by having schools lie to parents.  This is immoral and dishonest.  Since a child with gender dysphoria is 5 times more likely to commit suicide a parent needs to know about any condition that puts that child's life at risk.  Democrats, because of their political motives, want to keep this information from parents.  Shame on you.

You want to demonize other people, like Betsy DeVos who fought to have educator sexual misconduct reported, but you seem to ignore the unethical policies Democrats support.  Is a Democrat politician giving you some of the gold that their jacket is lined with, that they obtained illegally?  One might get that idea from reading some of your cheerleading for your 'team'.

jack

just_sayin said:

Is a Democrat politician giving you some of the gold that their jacket is lined with, that they obtained illegally?  One might get that idea from reading some of your cheerleading for your 'team'.

Hello just:

Of course, that's all crap  But, it DOES relate to my OP, and I thank you for that.  After all, you're a GOOD MAGA person.  You buy ALL of it, and you'll NEVER give it up.

So, I ask you again, what will happen to MAGA if Trump loses..  Oh, I KNOW what'll happen if he wins..  My beloved country will be flushed away..  But, if he loses, will you attack the capitol again?  Will you do coup?  Will you start a war?  Seriously, you're NOT just gonna walk away, are you?

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Is a Democrat politician giving you some of the gold that their jacket is lined with, that they obtained illegally?  One might get that idea from reading some of your cheerleading for your 'team'.

Hello just:

Of course, that's all crap  But, it DOES relate to my OP, and I thank you for that.  After all, you're a GOOD MAGA person.  You buy ALL of it, and you'll NEVER give it up.

So, I ask you again, what will happen to MAGA if Trump loses..  Oh, I KNOW what'll happen if he wins..  My beloved country will be flushed away..  But, if he loses, will you attack the capitol again?  Will you do coup?  Will you start a war?  Seriously, you're NOT just gonna walk away, are you?

excon

Here is a news headline of the story:

Gold Bar' Bob Menendez and his wife plead NOT GUILTY at federal court to charges he was bribed with $100,000 in gold bars and $480,000 in cash scattered over all over his house

I am not a fan of Trump.  I believe that conservatives support many more of the same issues that I do.  I think many leftist positions are racist, sexist, and oppressive to the poor.

jack

I am not a fan of Trump.  I believe that conservatives support many more of the same issues that I do.  I think many leftist positions are racist, sexist, and oppressive to the poor.

Hello again, j:

I understand you BELIEVE what you BELIEVE...  I get that..  But, this post isn't about that.  This post is about what will you DO if Trump loses?  Go home?  Join a group?  March on somebody?  You may do NOTHING, and I hope that's so. 

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

I am not a fan of Trump.  I believe that conservatives support many more of the same issues that I do.  I think many leftist positions are racist, sexist, and oppressive to the poor.

Hello again, j:

I understand you BELIEVE what you BELIEVE...  I get that..  But, this post isn't about that.  This post is about what will you DO if Trump loses?  Go home?  Join a group?  March on somebody?  You may do NOTHING, and I hope that's so. 

excon

Conservatism and the Republican party will go on with or without Trump.  Unfortunately, the Democrat party will continue its racist, sexist, and oppressive policies.  In fact it is the true danger in my opinion.  The Democrat party is attacking parents for questioning if books that talk about how to finger your butt hole are appropriate for grade schools.  Democrats are attacking women who question if biological men should be competing in women's sports.  Democrats are implementing policies that they know will make homes unaffordable and cause the cost of everything to be more.  Democrats have tried to defund the police and high crime neighborhoods have suffered from their actions.  Democrats are attacking scientists that dare claim there are two biological sexes.  This is who you should worry about.  There were over 450 riots in the summer of 2020 by BLM.  There were 100 nights of rights led by Antifa.  These are the groups that are more likely to riot if they don't get their way politically.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Exposing fake experts and conflicts of interest are legimate tactics.

@just_sayin

The idea that anyone could be right about anything doesn't respect experts and expert consensus. The chances of a scientific consensus being incorrect are extremely small. A propaganda questionable source  or fake expert being correct is nil.  

I willing to debate the issues you mentioned but one topic at a time.

"Questionable Reasoning: Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Some Fake News, Numerous Failed Fact Checks
Bias Rating: RIGHT
Factual Reporting: LOW"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

You arguments don't even try to be objective.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
I would love for you to debate any one of the issues I have mentioned.  I'd love to hear your 'well, the youth butt hole fingering educational materials I support are good and holy youth butt hole fingering educational materials.  Kids don't need more math classes.  They need more butt hole fingering classes."  argument.  I'm sure it will be good for either a laugh or a gasp of horror.  

You have again shown your  'I'm supporting my team no matter how evil they are' mentality.  You dismissed the fact that Bob Menendez was charged with bribery paid in gold bars, and had his clothes lined with money.  Your disdain of the Daily Mail doesn't make the story untrue.  It most certainly is.  Here are a few sources for you:

U.S. Senator Robert Menendez, His Wife, And Three New Jersey Businessmen Charged With Bribery Offenses

Menendez Accused of Brazen Bribery Plot, Taking Cash and Gold

Cash, gold bars, arms sales: How Bob Menendez met legal peril, again

I just cited three liberal controlled websites: the NYT, the Washington Post and the current Justice Department for you.  To prove my point.  You accept these liberally biased sites as reliable because they support 'your team'.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

The idea that anyone could be right about anything doesn't respect experts and expert consensus. The chances of a scientific consensus being incorrect are extremely small. A propaganda questionable source  or fake expert being correct is nil.

Could you clarify what you mean by the idea not respecting someone? And how it not respecting someone compromises its logical integrity in any way?

For instance, I have the idea that astrology is not scientifically sound. This idea does not respect astrologists who claim otherwise - does this imply that the idea is logically flawed?

just_sayin

Argument Topic: How Not to Be Evil 101

Some have claimed that MAGA is the real threat to the United States.  It seems to me that they have had to ignore a lot of racist, sexist, an oppressive policies from leftists to make such a claim.  Some have accused MAGA of just going along with their team and not condemning Trump, but it seems to me the left is far worse at this.  I've listed some examples in posts above.  What is most concerning is that they are blind to the evil they support, but gosh darn it, they are going to support their guys anyway.

@Dreamer - consider this a How Not to Be Evil 101 class.  If someone comes up to you and asks "Is it OK to chop off a baby's head?"  the answer is 'no'.  I know you may be wondering if that is the right answer or not, but trust me, it is.  When asked if it is OK to chop a baby's head off, just say 'no'.  Unfortunately some Democrat politicians don't know the answer to this question.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1711908229762945088

Again, I know this is a difficult opening lesson, but if asked if it is OK to chop off a baby's head, just say 'no'.  A MAGA guy would have got this question right.

Bogan

I do not know if HAMAS or Hezbollah chopped off Jewish babies heads or not, although I would not put it past those crazy religious fanatics.      But it sounds like propaganda to me.      It equates exactly to the false claim by the Kuwaitis that Iraqi soldiers had entered Kuwait maternity wards and dumped newborn premature birth babies on the floor in order to steal their special cribs.  

just_sayin

This from Newsweek

Black Lives Matter Org Praises Hamas, Sparks Backlash

In a statement posted on social media, the BLM Grassroots chapter responded to the ongoing fighting between Hamas militants and Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) saying, "As the world is faced with deep questions about self-determination, as well all desire and pray for a world of peace, we must stand unwaveringly on the side of the oppressed. When a people have been subject to decades of apartheid and unimaginable violence, their resistance must not be condemned, but understood as a desperate act of self-defense."

So chopping babies heads off is an act of self-defense?  Unlike the Democrats, MAGA, has condemned the killing of civilians and the chopping off of babies' heads which some Democrat congressperson's have refused to condemn.  

BLM has celebrated murder, rape, kidnapping, and infanticide.  And as you would expect, those who vote Democrat are refusing to condemn them.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We rely upon experts and expert opinion for just about everything.

@MayCaesar

This is how a specialized society works. Even people who claim to live off the grid rely upon manufactured goods and transportation.

I was responding to this quote "Any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue. " Just Sayin

The idea is expert opinion matters much more than a person in a different field. Very smart people with a PhD and a Noble Prize in one field have failed miserably when they move out of their narrow specialty. For example a PhD in physics turns to quackery.

A consensus of experts is considerable more credible than an individual expert. This is why fake experts used in a disinformation campaign as Big Tobacco has done are very harmful to society.

I find that Just Sayin's quote disregards the time, effort, and credibility of experts.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

This is how a specialized society works. Even people who claim to live off the grid rely upon manufactured goods and transportation.

I was responding to this quote "Any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue. " Just Sayin

The idea is expert opinion matters much more than a person in a different field. Very smart people with a PhD and a Noble Prize in one field have failed miserably when they move out of their narrow specialty. For example a PhD in physics turns to quackery.

A consensus of experts is considerable more credible than an individual expert. This is why fake experts used in a disinformation campaign as Big Tobacco has done are very harmful to society.

I find that Just Sayin's quote disregards the time, effort, and credibility of experts.

I am not sure what it is with online communication that makes people completely ignore most (typically all) of your questions and proceed with a new essay completely unrelated to anything you said.

I asked you the following questions:
"Could you clarify what you mean by the idea not respecting someone? And how it not respecting someone compromises its logical integrity in any way?"
"For instance, I have the idea that astrology is not scientifically sound. This idea does not respect astrologists who claim otherwise - does this imply that the idea is logically flawed?"
Please be so kind as to address these questions when responding to me.

As for the quote you cited, as far as I can see it is a factual claim that does not "regard" or "disregard" anything and is either true or false. The statement that any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue seems correct to me; does it seem incorrect to you, and if so, then why?

Again, I will appreciate it if you actually address my questions.

just_sayin

I am happy to report that not a single MAGA hat was seen at the pro-Hamas socialist rally where Democrat voters celebrated Hamas murdering grandmas, kidnapping women, and chopping babies heads off.

Socialist rally in Times Square praising Hamas terror attack draws widespread condemnation

“And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters,” one speaker joked about the Hamas assault on a desert rave, where horrific scenes of murder and rape took place.

It was a bracing spectacle that countered the grief pouring in from most civic leaders, from Brooklyn to Berlin.

The controversial rally in Times Square was hosted by the Democratic Socialists of America, a far-left organization that includes several prominent House members in its ranks, including Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rep. Jamaal Bowman, both of New York; Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, who is the first Palestinian woman in Congress; and Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, an outspoken critic of Israel.
In a widely criticized statement, Tlaib seemed to blame Israel for provoking the attack with its occupation regime in Gaza and the West Bank. “The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer,” ” she said.

I wonder if those who think MAGA is evil, are OK with several Democrat Congresspersons appearing at a pro-Hamas rally?  It seems to me the Democrat party has a lot more extremists in it than they want the public to realize.

Dee

@just_sayin

I wonder if those who think MAGA is evil, are OK with several Democrat Congresspersons appearing at a pro-Hamas rally?

What's wrong with supporting freedom fighters? I supported the IRA , so your point is?

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

I wonder if those who think MAGA is evil, are OK with several Democrat Congresspersons appearing at a pro-Hamas rally?

What's wrong with supporting freedom fighters? I supported the IRA , so your point is?

You think freedom fighters video the killing of grandmas?  Is it freedom fighters who are raping women?  Is it freedom fighters who are cutting kids heads off?  The Hamas rally celebrated those things.  I'm sure that you truly believe that the baby beheading that you support is good baby killing, but I just don't see it that way.  I don't see it as good grandma killing, or good rape either.  But many Democrat voters do, and that's a shame.  Democrats are grooming their base to accept violence as OK.

Dee

@just_sayin

Not one link to back your claims up and I wouldn't belive a thing you say as you lied about Biden earlier and instead of admitting it just repeated more new lies instead , but you're a " Christian " right?

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

Not one link to back your claims up and I wouldn't belive a thing you say as you lied about Biden earlier and instead of admitting it just repeated more new lies instead , but you're a " Christian " right?

If it turns out there is no evidence of Hamas cutting babies heads off, I'll gladly apologize, and then focus on how they cut the heads off of toddlers.  However, right now, the claim by an IDF leader has not been disproven. Biden did say "It matters that Americans see what is happening," Biden said, according to Axios reporter Barak Ravid. "I have been doing this a long time — I never thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children."

Now Biden's claim that he saw this has been walked back by his staff. And the media ignore that he made it in the first place. 

Hamas claims:

Hamas killed grandmas and videoed it:

Israeli woman learned of grandmother's killing on Facebook – after militant uploaded a video of her body
Hamas used victim's phone to post murder on Facebook

Women raped

Netanyahu describes Hamas atrocities in Israel

Remarks by President Biden on the Terrorist Attacks in Israel

Chopping kids heads off

‘Kfar Aza smells of death’: Inside the Israeli border village where ‘babies were slaughtered’ in Hamas attack

Hamas slaughtered babies and children in Kfar Aza kibbutz massacre

Its obvious that the real problem is not MAGA, who finds these acts abhorrent, but the many Democrats who celebrated them at pro-Hamas rallies.

Dee

@just_sayin

Yet another Republican party point scoring speech from Just Sayin

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

Yet another Republican party point scoring speech from Just Sayin

It's not the Republicans who are gathering at Pro-Hamas rallies to celebrate the killing of grandmas and children.  Multiple Democrat congressperson's have attended these rally's.  Sorry, @Dee, but MAGA doesn't support and cheer for those who killed grandmas and babies.  

Dee

@just_sayin

Sorry Dee but MAGA doesn't support and cheer for those who killed grandmas and babies.  

Well Just Sayin that's possibly because they're  out celebrating the Istaeli terrorists  blowing up Ambulance workers and children's schools.

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

Sorry Dee but MAGA doesn't support and cheer for those who killed grandmas and babies.  

Well Just Sayin that's possibly because they're  out celebrating the Istaeli terrorists  blowing up Ambulance workers and children's schools.

It would be wrong if Israel was targeting civilians.  Do keep in mind that Hamas stores its weapons in hospitals, schools and mosques.  See

Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools

It is said how many leftists will defend the killing of babies and grannies.  

Dee

@just_sayin

But Israel blows up schools and hospitals so why are you giving out?

Pretty sad the way Repulicans defend blowing up kids and grannies.

Bogan

@just_sayin

Yoo hoo just-sayin.      Dee is simply a troll who is revving you up.     Honestly, I would not bother with him.   How he has not been chucked off this site for trolling is beyond me.

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

But Israel blows up schools and hospitals so why are you giving out?

Pretty sad the way Repulicans defend blowing up kids and grannies.

Again, the IDF has targeted Hamas weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques.  When Israel does this, it always gives some notice it is about to happen so people can get clear of the area.  Targeting grannies and babies is something Hamas does.  There is no moral equivalency in my mind over the issue.  Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.

Bogan

@just_sayin ;    Again, the IDF has targeted Hamas weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques. 

Dee already knows that.   He is revving you up.

Just sayin quote      Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.

The only thing that Dee feels good about, is how much fun it is to rev up people who genuinely want to debate.  

MayCaesar

I would illustrate the moral difference between the sides by the following mental exercise. Suppose you were to ask a random Israeli citizen, "Would it be acceptable to murder 1,000 Palestinian kids if that furthered the Jewish cause?" Then you were to ask a random Gaza resident, "Would it be acceptable to murder 1,000 Jewish kids if that furthered the Islamic cause?" Just take your guess at in which case you are more likely to hear "yes".
Ask yourself another question too. If the roles were reversed, if the military power of Israel and Hamas was swapped - what would happen? My guess is, Israel would be gone by the end of the weekend, and Kabul under Taliban would be a massage parlor compared to Tel-Aviv under Hamas.

There is no question that some of the military actions by the state of Israel have been... questionable. However, it does not seem to be the case that the state of Israel is dead-set on destroying all of Palestine and exiling all of its residents. Same cannot be said for Hamas or Fatah. Whatever criticisms one may have of the Israeli actions, they have to admit that the brutality of sides relative to their capabilities is not the same.

To me it also seems that the reason so many people are sympathetic with the Palestinian cause is solely because Israel is demonstrably more powerful than the opposition: there is something inherent in humans that makes us suspicious of power holders and sympathetic for the underdog. In this case, however, the underdog is not a cute little hungry puppy: it has fangs and it bites, and the only reason it does not bite as hard as those it tries to bite is because it is little. 

Dee

@Bogan


The only thing that Dee feels good about, is how much fun it is to rev up people who genuinely want to debate.  


Know I feel good about lots including the French Red I'm drinking at the moment. People like you , Just sayin , Barndo8r etc ,etc don't debate you preach.

Dee

@just_sayin

Again, the IDF has targeted Hamas weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques.  When Israel does this, it always gives some notice it is about to happen so people can get clear of the area.  Targeting grannies and babies is something Hamas does.  There is no moral equivalency in my mind over the issue.  Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.


Again, Hamas  has targeted Israeli  weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques.  When Palestine  does this, it always gives some notice it is about to happen so people can get clear of the area.  Targeting grannies and babies is something  Israel does.  There is no moral equivalency in my mind over the issue.  Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I'll try one more time. That's a lot of questions to answer.

@MayCaesar

"The statement that any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue seems correct to me; does it seem incorrect to you, and if so, then why?"

This statement is indefensible. I am not sure why are helping defend it. An extreme example would be a toddler being correct about an intricate part of rocket science that specialists in the field have trouble with.

Astrology is pseudoscience astrologists are fake experts.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"The statement that any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue seems correct to me; does it seem incorrect to you, and if so, then why?"

This statement is indefensible. I am not sure why are helping defend it. An extreme example would be a toddler being correct about an intricate part of rocket science that specialists in the field have trouble with.

Astrology is pseudoscience astrologists are fake experts.

@Dreamer I love your and passion.  My earlier comment basically boils down to this: It isn't a strong argument to say 'well so and so, believes that too, so your argument is wrong.'  It is a better argument to share why you believe a certain issue is the correct position or not, rather than arguing about the validity of something based on how you feel about the messenger.  The message could be right or wrong, even if delivered by a messenger you trust.  If Trump said 'tap water is wet', just because you don't like Trump doesn't change the fact that tap water is wet.  Let's pretend that Joe Biden puts together a cogent sentence and says 'shoes are usually worn on the feet'.  Now, just because Joe Biden said it doesn't make it wrong.  Sure, he's usually wrong about his political view points, but if he says something that is true, it doesn't automatically become false, just because Joe Biden said it.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"The statement that any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue seems correct to me; does it seem incorrect to you, and if so, then why?"

This statement is indefensible. I am not sure why are helping defend it. An extreme example would be a toddler being correct about an intricate part of rocket science that specialists in the field have trouble with.

Astrology is pseudoscience astrologists are fake experts.

Perhaps you should read the statement more carefully. It does not say that a toddler will be correct about an intricate part of rocket science, just that he could be right on it. For one, he could just guess it and happen to be right.

Are you willing to remedy your argument given this correction?