What do we do with MAGA?

Dee

@Dreamer

***Astrology is pseudoscience astrologists are fake experts.***

Yes it is  pseudoscience but they are experts in Astrology so they are not fake ar all , could you do an Astrological chart?

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayin

Again, the IDF has targeted Hamas weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques.  When Israel does this, it always gives some notice it is about to happen so people can get clear of the area.  Targeting grannies and babies is something Hamas does.  There is no moral equivalency in my mind over the issue.  Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.


Again, Hamas  has targeted Israeli  weapons depots - which have been in schools, hospitals, and mosques.  When Palestine  does this, it always gives some notice it is about to happen so people can get clear of the area.  Targeting grannies and babies is something  Israel does.  There is no moral equivalency in my mind over the issue.  Now I'm certain that you strongly feel that your granny killing is good and holy granny killing, but I just don't see it that way.

I noticed that you did not cite any source to show evidence that Israel stores its weapons in schools, hospitals and mosques.  I also noticed that you provided no evidence that Israel targets grannies and babies either.  Do you have citations for these allegations?  Or is this just another post full of Dee-dly squat?

Dee

@just_sayim


I noticed that you did not cite any source to show evidence that Israel stores its weapons in schools, hospitals and mosques.

I noticed you lied about Biden and never issued a retraction.




 I also noticed that you provided no evidence that Israel targets grannies and babies either.

I also noticed you expect me to accept the word of your biased sources


 Do you have citations for these allegations?

You mean like make nonsense up like you regarding Biden?


 Or is this just another post full of Dee-dly squat


You mean like you who believes in a zombie called Jesus , talking snakes, virgin births , water walking messiahs,demons and angels etc,etc...,LOL

just_sayin

Dee said:

@just_sayim


I noticed that you did not cite any source to show evidence that Israel stores its weapons in schools, hospitals and mosques.

I noticed you lied about Biden and never issued a retraction.




 I also noticed that you provided no evidence that Israel targets grannies and babies either.

I also noticed you expect me to accept the word of your biased sources


 Do you have citations for these allegations?

You mean like make nonsense up like you regarding Biden?


 Or is this just another post full of Dee-dly squat


You mean like you who believes in a zombie called Jesus , talking snakes, virgin births , water walking messiahs,demons and angels etc,etc...,LOL

I will be happy to issue a retraction that Biden lied about seeing babies get their heads cut off, and were only butchered and burned, once it is either confirmed or denied.  And quoting Biden directly is not 'making nonsense up', it may be quoting Biden's nonsense that he made up, but it isn't making nonsense up.  Again, if it is confirmed that Hamas only burned, shot, and hacked with axes children, rather than chopped their heads off, I'll make a retraction.  

I noticed YET AGAIN you provided no documented support for your spurious claims.  Unlike you, I have provided multiple witness accounts of the 'zombie' called Jesus from friends, family and even his enemies.  You provided dee-dly squat - yet again.  

just_sayin

Argument Topic: No MAGA?

On this "Day of Rage" called by Hamas, it is interesting to note that you don't see any MAGA hats among those calling for more Jewish grannies and babies to be killed.  I'm just sayin 

Bogan

Hi "just-sayin".   I am glad that you seem to have stopped responding to that troll "Dee".       If you just ignore him, hopefully he will go away and play his games elsewhere. 

I like the way "Dreamer" thinks that "experts" are always right.     it confirms my theory that he is another young educated elitist who thinks that his diplomaed caste of pseudo aristocrats are the font of all virtue and wisdom, and that us deplorable proles and peasants should just and do what our superiors tell us to do.  

Dee

     @just_sayin

I will be happy to issue a retraction that Biden lied about seeing babies get their heads cut off, and were only butchered and burned, once it is either confirmed or denied.

The white house security said its nonsense, don't fret you're that crooked you cannot lie in the bed straight.

  And quoting Biden directly is not 'making nonsense up', it may be quoting Biden's nonsense that he made up, but it isn't making nonsense up

It's you making nonsense up, you do it on a daily basis.

.  Again, if it is confirmed that Hamas only burned, shot, and hacked with axes children, rather than chopped their heads off, I'll make a retraction.  

No you won't you will invent a new lie.

I noticed YET AGAIN you provided no documented support for your spurious claims. 

You deny everything except Republican Party gibberish 

 Unlike you, I have provided multiple witness accounts of the 'zombie' called Jesus from friends, family and even his enemies.

OK provide signed letters from all witnesses  , provide the home address of Jesus and his mother's signed testimony , provide signed  testimonies from neighbours ? You have none just like you don't have one signed testimony from Ace and " Christain swindler Delia Poxx



  You provided dee-dly squat - yet again.  

Say the guy who has no-one shred of evidence for his Jesus Zombie claims ......maybe you have a sworn testimony from the talking snake?

just_sayin

Dee said:

     @just_sayin

I will be happy to issue a retraction that Biden lied about seeing babies get their heads cut off, and were only butchered and burned, once it is either confirmed or denied.

The white house security said its nonsense, don't fret you're that crooked you cannot lie in the bed straight.

  And quoting Biden directly is not 'making nonsense up', it may be quoting Biden's nonsense that he made up, but it isn't making nonsense up

It's you making nonsense up, you do it on a daily basis.

.  Again, if it is confirmed that Hamas only burned, shot, and hacked with axes children, rather than chopped their heads off, I'll make a retraction.  

No you won't you will invent a new lie.

I noticed YET AGAIN you provided no documented support for your spurious claims. 

You deny everything except Republican Party gibberish 

 Unlike you, I have provided multiple witness accounts of the 'zombie' called Jesus from friends, family and even his enemies.

OK provide signed letters from all witnesses  , provide the home address of Jesus and his mother's signed testimony , provide signed  testimonies from neighbours ? You have none just like you don't have one signed testimony from Ace and " Christain swindler Delia Poxx



  You provided dee-dly squat - yet again.  

Say the guy who has no-one shred of evidence for his Jesus Zombie claims ......maybe you have a sworn testimony from the talking snake?

The White House back tracked on Biden's statement that he had seen images of babies that had their heads chopped off.  The White House did not say that I24 News report was false.  The I24 news site has not retracted the claim.  I did not make up Biden's claim - he did.  

The photo evidence that Hamas butchered and burned babies is easily available online.  You can see some NSFW images here.

Only the immoral support Hamas shooting and burning babies and hacking them with axes.  

You wanted 'letters' from some of the eyewitnesses of Jesus.  Here are a few for you:
The gospel of Matthew
The gospel of Mark
The gospel of John
The book of James
The books of 1, 2, and 3rd John

Here ae some bibliographic evidence collected from eye witnesses (friend and foe alike): 
The gospel of Luke
The Acts of the Apostles
Josephus, Testimonium Flavianum
Tactius, annals
Mar bar Sarapion
Pliny the Elder
Suetonius
Talmad

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I already thought of that and no given a complex enough equation it would be impossible.

@MayCaesar

Ever see those equations that fill the entire blackboard? The chances of the child guessing would quickly approach nil and the sun would turn into a red giant before the correct equation was reached randomly. Enough of this vacuous conversation goodbye.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I think the Replicans have the higher moral ground in response to Hamas.

@just_sayin

Thank you for pointing this out. The liberal response has been despicable and deserves only the fiercest condemnation.

https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1712613678166466862

I've seen bad omens and have been warning against Press TV State Hate, I wish I had been louder.

https://counterhate.com/research/state-hate/

Get this it is the liberals who are believing the lies.

"8. Press TV reaches a Western, left-leaning audience"

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Ever see those equations that fill the entire blackboard? The chances of the child guessing would quickly approach nil and the sun would turn into a red giant before the correct equation was reached randomly. Enough of this vacuous conversation goodbye.

You are switching to a different point now. Initially it was that it was "impossible", and now that it is improbable. That is a crucial difference, since the statement you responded to with it and called "indefensible" was this:

"Any individual could be right or wrong on any topic or issue."

If you want this conversation to be of any intellectual value to anyone, you really should start trying to understand what your conversation partners are saying.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Thank you for pointing this out. The liberal response has been despicable and deserves only the fiercest condemnation.

https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1712613678166466862

I've seen bad omens and have been warning against Press TV State Hate, I wish I had been louder.

https://counterhate.com/research/state-hate/

Get this it is the liberals who are believing the lies.

"8. Press TV reaches a Western, left-leaning audience"

I have given you a hard time for standing with leftists on a lot of issues.  I appreciate your willingness to speak out against those who are expressing anti-Semitic bigotry.  I think someone can be pro-Palestinian but still denounce the horrific actions of Hamas.  

This past week I have seen in comments sections of news sites, lots of Democrats like yourself, expressing how they can not support Democratic leaders like the Squad for their Jew hatred.  It is never OK to give a pass to the intentional killing of babies or grannies.  There is no valid moral equivalency argument on this issue.  Israel did not paraglide into Gaza enter people's homes and kill grannies or babies in their cribs.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Nil and impossible are the same.

@MayCaesar

I can't stop responding to you. The universe dying of heat death before insert task x is finished is a standard definition of impossible. I used the example of the Earth being engulfed by the sun turning into a red giant before that would happen, close enough.

At some point we get into the metaphysical, there is a 99.99% chance the Earth exists. Yet, this could all be a hyper-reality of some kind a dream like inception or a computer simulation like the Matrix/Tron, and the Earth is an illusion.

Anyways I am not here to debate metaphysical arguments.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Infants Died. Does It Matter if They Were Beheaded or Not?

I think the matter does need to be further investigated, if true this would be not only a hate crime but an extreme hate crime.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

Some history about the regressive left. The first time I heard about this was from the new atheists books. Sam Harris End of Faith, Richard Dawkins the God delusion, and maybe Christopher Hitchen's book God is not Great. 

These books were far more than just about atheism. In fact many of them have factual errors about religion and might been inadvertent early anti-woke books. Anti-woke is the best term I can come up with to explain the alarm of the post modernist, regressive left, holly-weird, puritanical elements of the lest.  As well these books were great at critical thinking and go hand in hand to prebunk anti-vaccine nonsense that so often comes from liberals.

Anyways, these books break the liberal illusion that white men are responsible for all the evils in the world. That other cultures are somehow better and more pure. The Muslim-Hindu violence reaches extremes. For example stripping a female, raping her, and lighting her on fire. Wow, was that upsetting the first time I heard. I did find a credible news story verifying the details, I can't find now.

In 1st world countries this type of violence is unheard of. Cutting out fetuses out of pregnant woman and skewing them on swords. Of course many feminists prefer to focus on Sam Harris' remarks.

https://skepchick.org/2014/09/sam-harris-doesnt-understand-bell-curves/

In the God Delusion Muslims' holding extremely anti-Semitic signs. I dare not repeat them in case someone gets confused and thinks I support such attitudes. Yet, again I can't find the new-story now but I did independently verify. This type of information doesn't seem to spread in many circles. If you dare bring this up you are quickly pushed off the stage, branded with three scarlet letters of a troll, racist, and Islamophobic.

The point is don't just dismiss that claim out of hand because it is surreal and there is a lot of fake news, we really should investigate infants being beheaded could be true.

Further reading:

https://jimleff.blogspot.com/2023/10/we-seen-true-nature-of-progressive.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/hamas-pop-intersectionality-leftism-israel/675625/

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

I can't stop responding to you. The universe dying of heat death before insert task x is finished is a standard definition of impossible. I used the example of the Earth being engulfed by the sun turning into a red giant before that would happen, close enough.

At some point we get into the metaphysical, there is a 99.99% chance the Earth exists. Yet, this could all be a hyper-reality of some kind a dream like inception or a computer simulation like the Matrix/Tron, and the Earth is an illusion.

Anyways I am not here to debate metaphysical arguments.

Please do not put responsibility on me, my friend: you have my full consent if you want to withdraw! 
I am not sure what the "standard definition" of "impossible" is, but from the logical perspective "impossible" implies that the probability of it happening is exactly 0. It does not matter how small it is if it is not zero: if it is not zero, then it is not "impossible".

Us living in a hyper-reality is (to my best understanding) an unverifiable and untestable claim, so I am not sure how it can be put in the same box as a very much verifiable and testable claim that an infant can happen to be right about a very complex phenomenon.

just_sayin

Congress passed a resolution today condemning Hama's attack on Israel.  with Democrats, Rashida Tlaib, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, and Cori Bush voting against it.  Last week, Democrats blocked a resolution to condemn antisemitism on college campuses.

I've heard Democrats say MAGA are terrorists, but Democrats are literally supporting terrorist groups now.  MAGA is not the real threat.  Leftists like the Squad are.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Leftist Prove Again They are Racist

Just when you thought leftists couldn't get any more racist or anti-Semitic, here they go again.  A Soros backed group is attacking the Kentucky AG, and candidate for governor, Daniel Cameron, for being a Black Republican.  They have used the racial epithet of 'Uncle Tom' to describe him.  I know, I know, that Democrats believe their racism is good racism, but its just racism. 

I don't see MAGA calling Black Republicans racial epithets like the Hamas supporting Democrat party has.  Instead I see MAGA Republicans fighting for poor Black children to have school choice so they can go to good voucher schools instead of failed public schools.  I see MAGA fighting so stop Democrats' defund the police efforts so inner city low income residents can be safe.  I see MAGA fighting to reduce illegal labor which disproportionately costs Black workers.  The Obama administration's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration estimated that it cost the average Black worker between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in reduced wages, but Democrats have pushed open borders, and Biden in tore down part of the wall Trump built. 

The average Black family is paying $709 more a month in living expenses because of Joe Biden's policies.  MAGA has strongly spoken out against Biden's inflationary policies while Democrats have asked suffering Black families to just and vote Democrat.  

John_C_87

@just_sayin
I've heard Democrats say MAGA are terrorists, but Democrats are literally supporting terrorist groups now.  MAGA is not the real threat.  Leftists like the Squad are.

The whole truth is MAGA is a form of terrorism just as Democracy is a form of terrorism. The issue is the interpretation of the 1st Amendment for it is most often made on a broken state that once was linking it to established justice no longer holds legal precedent. The ratification of the 1st Amendment as a state of the union from a President would be to work on the addition of Section to include a united state of constitution made between liberty and freedom. Explain in self-evident truth by law of nature a person cannot be free as the cost of all living is death so we the people are at liberty and what we say, write and listen to believe or not is a cost proven or not proven to the people. Those who are and have been elected are executor of a democracy not President of a united state of America.

Make America Great Again is a terrorist statement as it like many other descriptions of goals of politics holds no political detail to act as common defense to the general welfare. We the people in order to form the more perfect union establish this Constitution of the United States of law in America. Criminal law and Constitutional Right, the united state constitutional right being a second way to write law however without the use of crime. It is by introduction of preamble fact established by the complete opposite of crime the description of a complete right. To be a GOD father or mother of a nation where the freedom of religion is the right to hear and believe a person must be willing to not only describe what is wrong a man and women must be willing to show what is to be right.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Just when you thought leftists couldn't get any more racist or anti-Semitic, here they go again.  A Soros backed group is attacking the Kentucky AG, and candidate for governor, Daniel Cameron, for being a Black Republican.  They have used the racial epithet of 'Uncle Tom' to describe him.  I know, I know, that Democrats believe their racism is good racism, but its just racism. 

I don't see MAGA calling Black Republicans racial epithets like the Hamas supporting Democrat party has.

Was it not the last Republican president himself who used such epithets to describe other people as "Pocahontas", "Coco Chow" or "Peekaboo"? Seems to be as good as "Uncle Tom" to me.

I am not saying that the high-ranked Democratic party members or supporters are not known for their affinity towards "good racism", but you seem to be doing some nitpicking here.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

Just when you thought leftists couldn't get any more racist or anti-Semitic, here they go again.  A Soros backed group is attacking the Kentucky AG, and candidate for governor, Daniel Cameron, for being a Black Republican.  They have used the racial epithet of 'Uncle Tom' to describe him.  I know, I know, that Democrats believe their racism is good racism, but its just racism. 

I don't see MAGA calling Black Republicans racial epithets like the Hamas supporting Democrat party has.

Was it not the last Republican president himself who used such epithets to describe other people as "Pocahontas", "Coco Chow" or "Peekaboo"? Seems to be as good as "Uncle Tom" to me.

I am not saying that the high-ranked Democratic party members or supporters are not known for their affinity towards "good racism", but you seem to be doing some nitpicking here.

Had Trump's comment to an actual American Indian been to call her 'Pocahontas' you'd be right in saying it was wrong.  However, the woman in question, falsely identified herself as American Indian to land a teaching job.  He was mocking her dishonesty, not her heritage.  I can't speak to the other 2 names you mentioned because I don't recognize them.  

The term 'Uncle Tom' is a derogatory term addressed towards a Black person who has abandoned and betrayed other Black persons.  That is indeed a racial charge.  Unfortunately, too many Democrats see Black persons as just a racial group and not as individuals, which is a very racially biased way to see people.  

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

That does not seem like a good excuse to me. What if someone falsely identified themselves as African-American, and I, mocking their dishonesty, called them a "gorilla"? Would it be an appropriate comment?

I could also give a benevolent interpretation to the use of "Uncle Tom" in question. It could be seen as betrayal of a cause for (allegedly) a discriminated minority. It would be like a Chinese dissident fighting for democracy and freedom suddenly going to the nearest party office and proclaiming himself a devoted communist, denouncing democracy and liberalism. In this case, calling the person a name like "Uncle Tom" would not be a racial charge, but, rather, an ideological charge.

My general point is, these things are not as black and white as they might come across in your comment (not that that is the only valid reading of your comment, mind you).

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

That does not seem like a good excuse to me. What if someone falsely identified themselves as African-American, and I, mocking their dishonesty, called them a "gorilla"? Would it be an appropriate comment?

I could also give a benevolent interpretation to the use of "Uncle Tom" in question. It could be seen as betrayal of a cause for (allegedly) a discriminated minority. It would be like a Chinese dissident fighting for democracy and freedom suddenly going to the nearest party office and proclaiming himself a devoted communist, denouncing democracy and liberalism. In this case, calling the person a name like "Uncle Tom" would not be a racial charge, but, rather, an ideological charge.

My general point is, these things are not as black and white as they might come across in your comment (not that that is the only valid reading of your comment, mind you).

You must think I'm all credulity and no common sense to buy that.  If you want me to take serious the charge that Trump's comments were racist towards American Indians, then first show me where he called an American Indian that.  The point of the comment is that she is not whom she claimed to be.

Uncle Tom s a racial slur used to disparage a black person who is humiliatingly subservient or deferential to white people.  Let's not pretend it isn't.  Honesty is important.  Well, not to leftists, but to moral people it is.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

You must think I'm all credulity and no common sense to buy that.  If you want me to take serious the charge that Trump's comments were racist towards American Indians, then first show me where he called an American Indian that.  The point of the comment is that she is not whom she claimed to be.

Uncle Tom s a racial slur used to disparage a black person who is humiliatingly subservient or deferential to white people.  Let's not pretend it isn't.  Honesty is important.  Well, not to leftists, but to moral people it is.

I think that, in order to be honest, one must accept the complexity of people's motivations. Trump could have used many different words to point out that she is not whom she claimed to be, yet he used very specifically the word "Pocahontas". On the other hand, one can use term "Uncle Tom" in various contexts and with various purposes.

I do not even think that every usage of the N-word constitutes a racial slur. "Uncle Tom" has a very long history of use in various contexts and also is not always used as a slur.

It seems dishonest to me to defend use of certain terms that can be a racial slur in certain contexts and not of other terms.

As for morality, different people have different moral standards. Honesty can be not important to someone who has a very well developed system of morality, but that is significantly different from yours.

Bogan

@just_sayin

 Just-sayin quote.     I have given you a hard time for standing with leftists on a lot of issues.  I appreciate your willingness to speak out against those who are expressing anti-Semitic bigotry.  I think someone can be pro-Palestinian but still denounce the horrific actions of Hamas.  

 Yeah, but you see, the problem is, that according to Skynews, 70% of Us Jews vote Democrat.       The Democrats in the USA are in a quandary.     They want to be friends with everybody who is not white, so the party seems to be splitting between those who support Israel and those who think it is fashionable to support the evil Muslims.    Could you please tell your Jewish friends to stop acting like homosexuals who rather incredibly support Islam, and instead vote for Trump who does not like Muslims at all?

 

Just-sayin quote.     This past week I have seen in comments sections of news sites, lots of Democrats like yourself, expressing how they can not support Democratic leaders like the Squad for their Jew hatred.  It is never OK to give a pass to the intentional killing of babies or grannies.  

 Well, I don’t know about that either.    During WW2, my uncle Charlie was a crew member of a Lancaster bomber who routinely flew missions over Germany where he and his mates routinely dropped great big bombs on German cities, which were almost entirely devoid of men, as almost all German men were at the front.     The cities were full of women and children, babies, old people, dogs and cats.     The principle was, if you drop bombs on our civilians then don’t squeal if we drop bombs on yours.      If you fight civilised, so will we.   But if you want to play dirty, we will accommodate you.

 

Just-sayin quote   Congress passed a resolution today condemning Hama's attack on Israel.  with Democrats, Rashida Tlaib, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, and Cori Bush voting against it.  Last week, Democrats blocked a resolution to condemn antisemitism on college campuses.

 This is the quandary you end up in if you want to be friends with everybody, including two groups of people who are hostile to each other.    If you pretend to be friends to both parties, both sides will hate you for not allying yourself with one of them.   

Just-sayin quote        I've heard Democrats say MAGA are terrorists, but Democrats are literally supporting terrorist groups now.  MAGA is not the real threat.  Leftists like the Squad are.

 Not just MAGA supporters, but Catholics, and parents who are trying to prevent their kids from being politically indoctrinated Hitler Youth and Komsomol style.      The Dems hope to cling to power by making all white people who are not rabid leftists Enemies of the State.      The Dems are still trying to figure out if they should include Jews in that particular category.     Wouldn't it be funny if the 70% of Democratic Jews in the USA who vote Democrat find that the Dems have thrown them under a bus?   

 Just-sayin quote.    Just when you thought leftists couldn't get any more racist or anti-Semitic, here they go again.  A Soros backed group is attacking the Kentucky AG, and candidate for governor, Daniel Cameron, for being a Black Republican.  They have used the racial epithet of 'Uncle Tom' to describe him.  I know, I know, that Democrats believe their racism is good racism, but its just racism. 

I was once a leftist anti-apartheid demonstrator but I soon figured out that those who claim to be anti racists were just racist against white people.       Leftists are intellectually unable to see their own racism.       Here in Australia, we had a referendum a month ago to divide Australia by race which was defeated 61% to 39%.    It is just amazing that 39% of Australians see nothing wrong with giving left wing activists of spurious aboriginal descent political power over our elected parliament.

 

Just-sayin quote   I don't see MAGA calling Black Republicans racial epithets like the Hamas supporting Democrat party has.  Instead I see MAGA Republicans fighting for poor Black children to have school choice so they can go to good voucher schools instead of failed public schools.  I see MAGA fighting so stop Democrats' defund the police efforts so inner city low income residents can be safe.  I see MAGA fighting to reduce illegal labor which disproportionately costs Black workers.  The Obama administration's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration estimated that it cost the average Black worker between $1,000 - $2,000 a year in reduced wages, but Democrats have pushed open borders, and Biden in tore down part of the wall Trump built.

The average Black family is paying $709 more a month in living expenses because of Joe Biden's policies.  MAGA has strongly spoken out against Biden's inflationary policies while Democrats have asked suffering Black families to just and vote Democrat.  

 Yeah, but unfortunately, the vast majority of black African descended people have very low intelligence and most of them are entirely dependent upon the Democrat supported welfare spending to survive.      So, they will back the Dems no matter what.       And the Dems will back any crazy proposal like "Defund the Police" to pretend that they are in solidarity to their low IQ black brothers and sisters.   The smarter blacks who are smart enough to get and keep a job might think twice about supporting the Dems, but these average IQ to high IQ blacks blacks are still in the minority.  

 

 Just-sayin qote   The term 'Uncle Tom' is a derogatory term addressed towards a Black person who has abandoned and betrayed other Black persons.  That is indeed a racial charge. 

What you have to start figuring out is that every group of people on planet earth identify other groups of people who are either competitors for resources or an outright threat.   They always think up derogatory names for them.   Everybody does it, so there is nothing wrong with it, although in some situations it can be bad manners.   Calling a person a niggger can get the whole world down on you for saying that, even though black US African descended people call themselves by that moniker.      And nobody is going to take a minority to task for calling white people rednecks, crackers, deplorables, or bogans.    It is sheer hypocrisy. 

 

Just-sayin quote,   Unfortunately, too many Democrats see Black persons as just a racial group and not as individuals, which is a very racially biased way to see people. 

 Groan!    I think that you are intelligent so I enjoy helping you think straight.     Everybody generalises.    Everybody makes assumptions about other groups of people, good or bad, most of the time.    Human beings generalise because they can not think in specifics unless a situation arises in which thinking specifically is needed.    Thinking specifically takes time and concentration, which is usually not appropriate at the time of speaking.   Generalisations need not be entirely accurate, only accurate enough to make a point.   You can argue that a generalisation is not accurate enough to be useful, but you can never say that generalizing itself is wrong because everybody generalizes, most of the time. 

Democrats generalise that African blacks will always vote Democrat because the Dems are the party of welfare, and most blacks are on welfare.   That may not be entirely accurate, but it is accurate enough to be reasonably valid.     

John_C_87

@Bogan
Yeah, but you see, the problem is, that according to Skynews, 70% of Us Jews vote Democrat. The Democrats in the USA are in a quandary

There are no voting Americans who are democrats that is simple a process of political negotiation not associated to Constitutional Preamble. It is Unconstitutional. We the people in order to form the more perfect union to preamble all vote republican it is a common defense toward the general welfare, it is the perfect right. There are just good and bad republicans this however is a different state of the union and is addressing how the voting process is undertaken. Taxes are influenced by the process though.

Bogan

John C 87 quote     There are no voting Americans who are democrats that is simple a process of political negotiation not associated to Constitutional Preamble. It is Unconstitutional. We the people in order to form the more perfect union to preamble all vote republican it is a common defense toward the general welfare, it is the perfect right. There are just good and bad republicans this however is a different state of the union and is addressing how the voting process is undertaken. Taxes are influenced by the process though.

If there is anybody out there who can decipher what on earth John C 87 is saying with this statement, could they please translate it for me?  

just_sayin

Congress voted on condemning they anti-Semitic attack by Hamas on Israeli grannies and children.  MAGA republicans voted to condemn the horrific actions of Hamas, but 23, mostly Democrat, congresspersons refused to vote that anti-Semitism is wrong.  Here is a list of their names (from Newsweek):

• Earl Blumenauer, a Democrat for Oregon
• Jamaal Bowman, a Democrat for New York and member of "The Squad" of progressives in the House
• Cori Bush, a Democrat for Missouri and another Squad member
• Andre Carson, a Democrat for Indiana
• Maxwell Frost, a Democrat for Florida
• Jesus G. 'Chuy' Garcia, a Democrat for Illinois
• Jared Huffman, a Democrat for California
• Jonathan L. Jackson, a Democrat for Illinois
• Pramila Jayapal, a Democrat for Washington state
• Summer L. Lee, a Democrat for Pennsylvania and a Squad member
• Thomas Massie, a Republican for Kentucky. He said of his decision to vote no that there was no agreed definition of antisemitism, adding: "Free speech means protecting speech you don't like, not just speech you do like."
• James P. McGovern, a Democrat for Massachusetts
• Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a Democrat for New York and founding member of The Squad
• Ilhan Omar, a Democrat for Minnesota and another Squad founding member
• Ayanna Pressley, a Democrat for Massachusetts and a further Squad founding member
• Delia C. Ramirez, a Democrat for Illinois
• Mark Takano, a Democrat for California
• Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat for Michigan and founding Squad member, who is of Palestinian descent
• Ritchie Torres, a Democrat for New York. He has since released a statement in which he said he voted against the motion "mistakenly," adding: "As a visible and vocal advocate against antisemitism on college campuses, especially in the wake of October 7, I have submitted a correction for the record."
• Lauren Underwood, a Democrat for Illinois
• Nydia M. Velazquez, a Democrat for New York
• Maxine Waters, a Democrat for California
• Bonnie Watson Coleman, a Democrat for New Jersey

More and more, it is evident, that MAGA is not the greatest danger to the US.  Racist and anti-Semitic leftists do appear to be a threat to the safety of many though. 

Bogan

@just_sayin ;      Racist and anti-Semitic leftists do appear to be a threat to the safety of many though. 

Yeah, but the problem is, that according to recent polls, 70% of US Jews vote Democrat.     Homosexuals are primarily Democrat voters and Democrats support Islam, even though Islam wants to kill homosexuals.    Feminists support the Democrats, even though Democrats support Islam, a male dominated religion who's attitudes to women's rights is positively medieval.    "Intellectuals" once staunchly defended free speech, but the social regressive class today support the Democrats, who want to censor free speech, even though that is illegal under the US constitution.     It is a strange world.   

just_sayin

Bogan said:

@just_sayin ;      Racist and anti-Semitic leftists do appear to be a threat to the safety of many though. 

Yeah, but the problem is, that according to recent polls, 70% of US Jews vote Democrat.     Homosexuals are primarily Democrat voters and Democrats support Islam, even though Islam wants to kill homosexuals.    Feminists support the Democrats, even though Democrats support Islam, a male dominated religion who's attitudes to women's rights is positively medieval.    "Intellectuals" once staunchly defended free speech, but the social regressive class today support the Democrats, who want to censor free speech, even though that is illegal under the US constitution.     It is a strange world.   

The Democrats have bought into the unethical and racist views seen in antiracism literature, such as in 'How to be an AntiRacist'.  That immoral mindset does not see people as individuals, and just reduces them to a member of a group.  As such it only sees oppressors and victims.  That's why they can't recognize that what Hamas did by killing grannies and babies as wrong.  To them, just being Jewish, makes you the oppressor.  Since all LGBTQ people must be viewed as a group, and as victims, they cheer for Hamas because they see them as a victim group also.  It doesn't matter to them that Hamas cut children's heads off.  They are able to rationalize all kinds of evil things.

I've seen several articles where leftist Jewish people are reconsidering their support for the anti-Semitic Democrat party.

Bogan

@just_sayin

Just-sayin quote   The Democrats have bought into the unethical and racist views seen in antiracism literature, such as in 'How to be an AntiRacist'.  That immoral mindset does not see people as individuals, and just reduces them to a member of a group.  As such it only sees oppressors and victims.  That's why they can't recognize that what Hamas did by killing grannies and babies as wrong.  To them, just being Jewish, makes you the oppressor.  Since all LGBTQ people must be viewed as a group, and as victims, they cheer for Hamas because they see them as a victim group also.  It doesn't matter to them that Hamas cut children's heads off.  They are able to rationalize all kinds of evil things.

I've seen several articles where leftist Jewish people are reconsidering their support for the anti-Semitic Democrat party. 

 

 Not all of the Democratic Party are anti Semitic.      After claiming on another topic that judging people as a group instead of individuals, you are now doing it yourself, proving my assertion that everybody does it.   Making generalisations about groups of people can not be wrong if everybody does it.

To figure out what is happening, you need to look at what demographics makes up the Democratic party.

 First, there is the corrupt Democratic Party leadership, where influence peddling is and always has been, a cottage industry.     These establishment people were once very anti Semitic as a lot of the upper class social clubs banned Jews from membership.     But today, I opine that they are probably, s a group, pro Israel because their present corrupt President is doing his best to display his solidarity with Irael/

 Second, comes the loony left who are primarily non uniformed public servants.      They are that way because the most radical always become leaders, and they only promote other loony lefties into managerial positions, They also cull out anybody who is right wing during times of job cutbacks.      The public service is a large voting block in itself but it still needs the support of other voting demographics.    So, it pretends to be the champions of the oppressed.

This is where things get tricky.    There is no doubt in my mind that multiculturalism was instigated by the left to allow them to play identity politics and to seek the support of non white minorities in order to swamp the votes of the white electorate.     Muslims are a significant minority, as a matter of fact, the Labor Party of NSW (equivalent to the democrats in the USA)  has it’s primary vote within the six Muslim areas of Sydney.   Small wonder that Labor, once a staunch supporter of Israel, has flipped, and many Laborites now support the “Palestinians.”     This is especially so for Australia’s Green Party which is our most left wing party.    The Greens have been losing support among inner city elites because their policies are just idiotic, and even Green voters can see it.    So, the Greens are sucking up to the Muslims because they know that Labor is in a quandary.      Like the Democrats in the USA, it has split the party into two factions.  Which I think is funny.    Identity politics, which they invented and promoted, has just bit them on the bum.

 Lastly, comes the dysfunctional minorities who will vote for anybody who will give them a free feed.      I really don’t know if they are anti semitic or not?     But the fact that so many homosexuals support the eradication of Israel is not an encouraging sign.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Liberalism is in trouble, but that doesn't mean we should turn to MAGA.

"Fitting Israel into the intersectional framework has always been difficult, because its Jewish citizens are both historically oppressed—the survivors of an attempt to wipe them out entirely—and currently in a dominant position over the Palestinians, as demonstrated by the Netanyahu government’s decision to restrict power and water supplies to Gaza. The simplistic logic of pop intersectionality cannot reconcile this, and the subject caused schisms within the left long before Saturday’s attacks." Helen Lewis

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-progressives-who-flunked-the-hamas-test/ar-AA1i9H6k

I highly recommend the above article. Was behind paywall before, but seems you can get from MSN for free. Even better than I thought it would be.

Well before the cruel and unprovoked Hamas terrorist attack I have had a lot of trouble with other liberals. Their uncanny ability to prematurely call other trolls and have people believe them. Pushing the person off the stage, sweeping it under the rug, and therefore nothing gets resolved.

If you dare bring up how affirmative action for example helps white woman at the expense of Black people you are being divisive. There is nothing sexist/racist in the last sentence, yet you will be pushed off the stage. Add this to the litany of taboo words and phrases and it can be really difficult for a liberal belonging to group A of liberals to talk to group B of liberals.

Another idea is that we should give aid in response to how marginalized a group is, with more discriminated against in a hierarchy of need getting more. Even that is considered divisive. Despite that we don't have enough money to end poverty via basic universal income.

"A UBI would cost even more—with more than 300 million Americans, $12,000 per year would cost more than $3.6 trillion per year."

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/universal-basic-income-4160668

Considering the total revenues of the United States is only 5 trillion and $12,000 wouldn't even be enough for high rent places like New York City.

When I talk about the merits of the new atheist movement, I am ironically labeled alt-right and cancelled or shut down. These are all real problems that need to be addressed and the Hamas test has revealed.

Yet, to turn to MAGA in response is just foolish. All the conspiracy theories, science denial, the 30k+ lies of Trump, the overt racism if not full blow neo-nazi groups, the violence of the Proud Boys, etc.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

Yet, to turn to MAGA in response is just foolish. All the conspiracy theories, science denial, the 30k+ lies of Trump, the overt racism if not full blow neo-nazi groups, the violence of the Proud Boys, etc.

Conspiracy theories?  You mean like the Russian Collusion one that Democrats pushed for years and has been debunked? Like that one?  

Science denial?  You mean like how leftists deny that if there were 0 CO2 emissions today, the global temperature would continue to increase and only be less than anticipated by 0.2 degree Celsius? 

Or like how they deny the safety and effectiveness of nuclear power which can scale much better than solar and wind.  You know more people have died in the last 10 years from installing solar panels than have died from all the nuclear power plants of the last 70 years, and that include Chernobyl and Japan's melt downs? 

 Or the science denial that GMOs are evil.  GMOs have been shown to be safe and can help feed starving people.  But science denying leftists would rather starving people die than admit they are wrong.  Same goes for use of DDT.  Science shows it can virtually wipe out Malaria in 3rd world countries if it is used. Even the leftist WHO agrees it should be used.  But science hating leftists want millions to die agonizing deaths.  

Or maybe you mean the kind of science denial that says men and women have no physical differences and that biological sex isn't real, and that men have vaginas, and can have babies.  Politics has replaced science for many on the left.

Or maybe the science denial that denies that unborn babies are living human beings.  This is a common anti-science claim I hear from leftists.  

Or maybe you meant the kind of science denial that kept schools closed for over a year, when science said that children were the least likely to die from COVID.  Kids have lost over 6 months of education due to that science denial alone.

Bow your head in shame, science denier.   

You claim that MAGA people are overtly racist.  I think you are ignoring the racism of leftists - big time.  There may be some racists who claim to be MAGA, but I don't see conservatives saying they speak for them.  Instead I see conservatives condemning those beliefs and actions.  Democrats such as Biden,Clinton and Obama defended, Senator Byrd, who was literally a recruiter for the KKK, as a great American.  Democrats excused his use of the N word on the senate floor.  Democrats, such as the Squad have openly made anti-Semitic comments and hold positions of power in the Democrat party.  Leftist students on campuses are openly calling for the death of Jews.  Racism and anti-Semitism are not fringe aspects of leftism.  These beliefs are expressed by the leaders of the Democrat party.

Democrats support racist policies like Affirmative Action and DEI.  When the Supreme Court said discriminating against Asian students in college admissions is racist, what did the left do?  Did they repent of their racism?  Nope.  Instead, they have merely become more covert in their racism.  Their racism remains.  Leftists truly believe that it is just to discriminate against whites and Asians in hiring, promotions, college admissions, awarding grants, scholarships, and contracts.  They brag that their racism is good racism.  But it isn't. Its just racism.  They believe that just being white makes you an oppressor, and being Black makes you a victim.  How is it just to award a job, promotion, or college admissions based on race? It is not.  Yet, leftists openly voice their support for this kind of racism.  I don't hear many liberal voices objecting to their blatant racism either.

Leftists have tried their best to keep poor Black children chained to bad public schools.  Many of these schools have been bad for 50 years or longer, about as long as Democrats have been running them. We all get how it helps teacher unions, and Democrats, who get a lot of money from teachers unions, to keep Black kids trapped in bad educational environments, but tell me honestly now, how does it help that poor Black child desperate to get a good education?  School choice is the civil rights issue of this generation, and Democrats are once again on the wrong side of history, just like when they got into bed, under the white sheets, with the KKK.

There is a huge difference in how the same behaviors are viewed.  Most conservatives I know condemn anyone who went into the capital to cause trouble on January 6th.  But leftist defended the 500 plus BLM riots during 2020.  They defended the 100 days of Antifa riots. Did you know that over 150 DC mall police and over 50 secret service agents were injured by BLM protestors at the white house in the summer of 2020?  The leftist media downplayed their injuries, and BLMs torching of a nearby torch.  They even laughed that Trump had to be evacuated to a bunker under the white house.  Leftists rationalize and justify their criminal behavior, while conservatives are much more likely to condemn that kind of behavior.  

Bogan

Great post, just-sayin.     Well done.    

Dreamer

Argument Topic: The main point is that liberals tend to push off the stage anyone who brings up friction points.

@just_sayin

Most religions are not compatible with each other. There seems to be no way to have justice for both Israel and Palestine. These are inherit flaws with liberalism.

As for you responding only to my last paragraph with yet another long list that seems more to disorient than to convince, well that's typical of you and comes off as a childish tu quo fallacy. I made several one vs one debate on climate change. You didn't even bother to accept some of them. Yet, you bring up climate change over and over in a list of other topics.

On the other hand, there is no good reason for conservatives to turn to a president with over 30k lies, denial, and conspiracy thinking. This is not inherit flaws of conservatism this is just plain bad political actors.

It is well established that although there is some conspiracy thinking in liberalism, conservatives practice way more. Just look at infowars.

"Overall, InfoWars/Alex Jones is a crackpot, tin foil hat-level conspiracy website that strongly promotes pseudoscience. The amount of fake news, debunked conspiracy claims, and extreme right-wing bias renders InfoWars a non-credible source."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/infowars-alex-jones/

"Sander: “Research consistently shows that the individuals who are most susceptible to conspiracy theories are predominantly (a) male, (b) white, (c) conservative, and (d) lower educated. Most are also politically active (online)."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-justice-pacifists/202110/why-is-conspiratorial-thinking-more-popular-the-right

just_sayin

@Dreamer

Most religions are not compatible with each other. There seems to be no way to have justice for both Israel and Palestine. These are inherit flaws with liberalism.
As for you responding only to my last paragraph with yet another long list that seems more to disorient than to convince, well that's typical of you and comes off as a childish tu quo fallacy. I made several one vs one debate on climate change. You didn't even bother to accept some of them. Yet, you bring up climate change over and over in a list of other topics.

You are correct, most religions are not compatible with each other.  They differ.  That doesn't mean there aren't any similarities.  

Several times a two state solution has been put forward, each times the Arabs rejected it.  A two state solution is not possible if you believe there should be no Israel at all.  

I listed a myriad of issues where leftists are anti-science.  GMOs, nuclear power, when a human life begins, what a woman is, how much we can realistically change global temperatures, keeping kids out of school much longer than necessary for COVID, etc. Those are all valid examples of leftists being anti-science.  I debated you on a $100 a ton carbon tax, and if they declared a winner, I would have won.  I am predicted to win by like 61%. I haven't avoided discussing climate change.  I have engaged with people who don't believe it is happening and I've engaged zealots who would harm poor people for little to no change in global temperatures.    

I have mentioned very concrete examples of blatant racism and anti-Semitism that leftists openly support.  That's not childish, that' being honest about specific racist and anti-Semitic policies endorsed by leftists.   

Dreamer

Argument Topic: At least we agree about religion.

@just_sayin

Some suggest multi-faith worship which is just totally illogical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

I wouldn't know about the two state solution, does seem both the majority of Arabs and Jews support the notion.

GMO's yes some liberals are including greenpeace anti-gmo and I condemn those liberals for their anti-science view that increases world hunger, but so are some conservatives.  Landis was anti-GMO still is best of knowledge and they are known for being conservative.

"Absolutely. I actually know more conservatives than liberals who buy into the anti-GMO hysteria."

https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/anti-gmo-attitudes-on-the-left-and-right

I don't really know enough about nuclear power to even know if it is a viable energy source. I heard it can be really expensive.

Human life beginning was never the issue the problem is feasibility. Are conservatives really going to call the morning after pill murder?

The part about what a woman seems like a strawman. There is nothing wrong with pointing out physical differences between the sexes. That on average men are taller and stronger than woman for example.

As for climate change you seem fixated on some conservative propaganda. Climate change can be mitigated. Global cooperation is possible.

So you send the child to school and then their parent dies? Also there was teacher shortages before the covid lock-down. Covid is a leading cause of death among children.

As for charter schools there is not enough information you are jumping to conclusions. There's probably more racism and antisemitism on the right, remember the proud boys?

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2022/01/28/why-is-there-now-such-an-affinity-between-antivaxxers-and-fascism/

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

It is well established that although there is some conspiracy thinking in liberalism, conservatives practice way more. Just look at infowars.

Dreamer said:

As for charter schools there is not enough information you are jumping to conclusions. There's probably more racism and antisemitism on the right, remember the proud boys?

You are engaging in this fallacy a lot in your thinking. You make a big proclamation, such as "X do A more than Y", and then bring up one example - as if one example was statistically significant in any way. Realize that the opposite arguments can be made just as easily:

"It is well established that although there is some conspiracy thinking in conservatism, liberals practice way more. Just look at RFK."
"There's probably more racism and antisemitism on the left, remember the BDS?"

There are no more than a few thousand Proud Boys, and Infowars is but one website out of over a billion. These are drops in the ocean. On the other hand, say, the BLM movement is now a global phenomenon, in support of which countless prominent celebrities, politicians and enterpreneurs spoke - and that is an explicitly socialist (that is "leftist") and an explicitly racist movement. How come you point at the mouse (Proud Boys), but completely ignore the elephant in the room?

This is what it means to be engaged in a tribal thinking: you apply completely unreasonable standards for tribes other than yours, where just one or two bad tribesmen suggest that the entire tribe is bad - yet in your own tribe more than half the people may be engaged in the type of behavior you are criticizing other tribes for, and you will not ever mention it. It is related to the "nirvana fallacy", where one political system is relentlessly criticized for every minor flaw, while another is idealized and all real world failures of it are dismissed with "it was not a true implementation of that system".

It is kind of like the men who believe that all women are "b!tches", and they base it on the sole example of their nasty ex - as if that ex is a spokeswoman for over 4 billion women on this planet. But they do not say the same about all men, despite countless nasty men in history having done very bloody things.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

I wouldn't know about the two state solution, does seem both the majority of Arabs and Jews support the notion.

The Palestinians/Arabs who would make the decision have turned down every offer.  When your motto is "from the river to the sea", there is no Israel state that is permissible.  

I don't really know enough about nuclear power to even know if it is a viable energy source. I heard it can be really expensive.

Nuclear Power is expensive - some of that is the fault of those who fight to keep nuclear power plants from opening.  For example several sites that have nuclear power plants on them could expand, but protests keep that from happening.  This keep the costs higher.  Also, nuclear has much higher up front costs. Whereas its maintenance costs are much lower.  That is the opposite of solar and wind, which have much lower start up costs, but because of the impact on the grid, maintenance and battery issues are high, and in several cases the issues with the grid and batteries are still TBD.

 Are conservatives really going to call the morning after pill murder?

Murder is a legal term, not a moral one.  Conservatives do not call it murder.  There are 2 drugs which terminate the human life after conception - I assume you are referencing them.  Does size determine if someone is human or not?  I would argue it does not.  I don't think we should kill innocent human lives.  

The part about what a woman seems like a strawman. There is nothing wrong with pointing out physical differences between the sexes. That on average men are taller and stronger than woman for example.

Many leftist have become militant about their false science claim that men can be women and that women can be men.  There were protests at a university recently because they removed a tampion dispenser from a men's bathroom.  That's some serious science denial there.  Leftists want biological males to compete against biological females in sports and refuse to recognize that biological men have greater muscle mass, lung capacity, strength, speed, and height.  That's not fair to women.  But you would have to be able to define that, and according to many leftists there is no definition of a woman that is different from a man.  

As for climate change you seem fixated on some conservative propaganda. Climate change can be mitigated. Global cooperation is possible.

Conservative propaganda?  This is where you lost all credibility.  Go back and look at my posts.  I'm the guy who quotes Nobel prize winners in global economics.  You are the one spewing a lot of propaganda.  Yes, we can take steps to mitigate the damage of global change, but as I pointed out to you when we debated, not every action makes sense.  Global cooperation is conceptually possible.  In reality, many 3rd world countries, along with India and China, need cheap energy to bring their citizens out of poverty.  It is naïve to think that they will not increase their use of cheap energy sources so they can purchase electric cars which cost more than the average citizen will make in 10 to 20 years.  

So you send the child to school and then their parent dies? Also there was teacher shortages before the covid lock-down. Covid is a leading cause of death among children.

Significantly fewer children died than any other group from COVID.

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3/explore/query/SELECT `data_as_of`, `age_group`, `covid_19_deaths`, `indicator`, `sex`, `race_group`, `start_week`, `end_week`/page/filter

I admire your ability to spin.  

As for charter schools there is not enough information you are jumping to conclusions. There's probably more racism and antisemitism on the right, remember the proud boys?

There is a difference in charter schools and voucher schools.  School vouchers have been in practice in the US since the late 80's/early 90's.  There are literally hundreds of studies.  

Thomas Sowell's book, Charter Schools and Their Enemies, would be a great eye opening book for you to read.  

You should realize how small the proud boys are.  They are not a large group like BLM who had over 500 riots in the summer of 2020 alone.  The examples of racism I have provided you are not coming from 'fringe' elements on the left.  Support for racist policies, like Affirmative Action and DEI, are touted by leftists.  To conclude that MAGA is more racist, means you have to rationalize the lefts racist and anti-Semitic beliefs and policies.  

MayCaesar

I will add that at the university where I am working, we are literally bombarded with the "racial awareness" stuff, where multiple times a day every employee and student receives a feed with a few stories about how some researcher received a grant to study "racial bias in musical conservatories" and wrote a paper which recommends targeted campaigns at attracting specifically racial minorities to study there... Not a single time have I seen anything of this kind that could be associated with the "right".

When was the last time you heard someone famous say something like, "Black liberals should not be allowed to speak on college campuses", without receiving immediate insane backlash from pretty much everyone? Now, replace "black liberals" with "white conservatives" in that statement, and suddenly you get a statement that on most college campuses is not even that controversial.

I am not sure how it is possible to state that the "right" is generally more racist than the "left" when the examples of the opposite are all over the place. "Leftists" get away with the most outrageous racist statements and proposals, while conservatives get called out on the most innocent things. This bias is fairly obvious to anyone whose head is not very deep in the sand. Now, some people will say that this bias is justified, that "conservatives are on the wrong side of history" or what not... But that is a completely different discussion and does not negate the existence of the bias.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: High if not extreme conserative bias in your arguments is self evident.

@MayCaesar

"Black Lives Matter is not a hate group. But the perception that it is racist illustrates the problem. Our society as a whole still does not accept that racial injustice remains pervasive. And, unfortunately, the fact that white people tend to see race as a zero-sum game may actually impede progress."

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/07/19/black-lives-matter-not-hate-group

Both of you, just_Sayin too have really bias views on racism. When the bias level is this high I don't think I can reach you. Black Lives Matter is not racist at least not in 2016.

This is a worrisome trend because sometimes economic equality and aid, helps white people way more and even at the expense of Black, Hispanic, and American Indians. For example taking lands from American Indians to build universities to help poor white people. Or redlining the suburbs giving education to white people but not Black nor Hispanic.

"Planners of the interstate highway system, which began to take shape after the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956, routed some highways directly, and sometimes purposefully, through Black and brown communities. In some instances, the government took homes by eminent domain."

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-how-racism-shaped-interstate-highways

Welfare, for example pouring money into the suburbs to build roads for white people and gutting the public transportation system. Maybe, I am incorrect that the anti-racists won't allow us to build white man's road through Black people's homes again.

 Yet, your comments about Black Lives Matter being racist and conservatives getting called out on the most innocent things strikes fear into me. This is why I worry about diversity training that a bunch of white liberals will stick together and say all the correct things but only to each other which is useless. While not teaching the MAGA crowd which really need to learn their own nation's racist history.

"Robin DiAngelo’s idea changed how white progressives talk about themselves—and little else."

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/09/white-fragility-robin-diangelo-workshop.html

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Buddy, can you for a moment try to think for yourself, rather than citing random sources? From the front page of their official website (https://blacklivesmatter.com/hbcu/):

We know the collective power of our Black institutions, Black cultural leaders, Black students, and Black thought leaders in Movement spaces. Our people are on all fronts, reimagining our futures and empowering generations to come. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is excited to continue building relationships in order to best serve our communities.
...
In December 2022, we launched our Student Solidarity Fund — an expansion to our survival fund, where at the height of the pandemic in 2020, BLMGNF gave $3 million directly to Black individuals, families, small-business owners, and other folks experiencing financial hardship.
...
On December 12, 2022, the first wave of the Student Solidarity Fund was launched, which is specifically for Black alumni or former Black students who completed some credit toward their Bachelor Degree. We understand that things happen, and sometimes, circumstances come up unexpectedly that may have led someone to not complete their degree — but this does not get rid of debt accrued. We wanted to be sure that these folks have just as much of a shot toward paying off their debt as others.

They are proud to announce that their monetary aid goes specifically to people of one particular race. Do you not find it racist? What if we flip the table; what if I create a fund that only hands money over to White people?

I think it is clear who has the biased view on racism here. It is not the people who apply the same standards to statements about White people and Black people; it is those who do not.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: For all the diversity training you supposedly are bombarded at your college you work at you seem to miss the basics.

@MayCaesar

"American Indian and Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander children carried the biggest burden, losing caregivers at about 3.5 times the rate of white children."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/200000-us-children-lost-parent-caregiver-covid-efforts-help-haphazard-rcna16140

Personally, I think the most racist action a person can legally and easily take is to simply not get vaccinated, medical exceptions allowed. Don't you understand historic trauma and inter-generational wealth? That past injustices compound.

Affirmative action as Black Lives Matter is doing is an effort to address past injustices. I find Black Lives Matter overly divisive, but not racist. I belief that economic inequality has reached disgusting toxic levels and that we need a race blind transfer of wealth, ending of monopolies, monopsony and a lot more. This would help Black people more than white.

Again, Pacific Islander children got hit harder, so I am not giving any money nor support to BLM.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: How is DEI (Diversity, equity, and inclusion) racist?

@just_sayin

"Support for racist policies, like Affirmative Action and DEI, are touted by leftists."

How is DEI racist?

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"American Indian and Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander children carried the biggest burden, losing caregivers at about 3.5 times the rate of white children."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/200000-us-children-lost-parent-caregiver-covid-efforts-help-haphazard-rcna16140

Personally, I think the most racist action a person can legally and easily take is to simply not get vaccinated, medical exceptions allowed. Don't you understand historic trauma and inter-generational wealth? That past injustices compound.

Affirmative action as Black Lives Matter is doing is an effort to address past injustices. I find Black Lives Matter overly divisive, but not racist. I belief that economic inequality has reached disgusting toxic levels and that we need a race blind transfer of wealth, ending of monopolies, monopsony and a lot more. This would help Black people more than white.

Again, Pacific Islander children got hit harder, so I am not giving any money nor support to BLM.

Well, here we have our answer: your claim that one part of the political spectrum is more racist than another is based on your personal definition of racism which has nothing to do with the actual definition, which is belief that people have different worth and, therefore, deserve different things based on their race. The claim that not getting vaccinated is a racist action is absolutely indefensible with the right definition in mind, but with yours - might be.

As for "historic trauma", there is no such thing: it is an incoherent concept. I cannot be traumatized by something that happened before I was even born, and the fact that my great-grandfather went through Stalin's Gulags and died subsequently has absolutely zero impact on how I feel about myself today. For inter-generational wealth, I came to the US with a backpack and $500 on my credit card - far less than virtually any Black person born in the US has. Where is my White Lives Matter group?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Anecdotal evidence fallacy.

@MayCaesar

Yes, it is possible for people to succeed against the odds and be a statistical outlier. Yet, to discredit inter-generational wealth and historic trauma based upon your own personal experience is an extreme cherry picking fallacy.

"Abstract The black-white gap in household wealth is large and well documented. Here, we visualize how this racial wealth gap persists across generations."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2378023119831799

 

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Approximately 80% of the US millionaires are self-made. If anything is an outlier statistically, it is the wealthy people who have their inter-generational wealth to thank. And my point was not even about that; it was that I started off with far less than most of the Black people you claim to be traumatized, yet I have never asked for any privileges from anyone, for any movements to represent me - especially based on my skin color.

It seems to me that our definitions of racism differ. What I see as treating people as individuals regardless of their superficial characteristics, you see as ignorance of some historical injustices and, therefore, racial bias. Well, I am happy to have a racial bias by this definition. If racial bias means not caring about race when choosing how to treat people, then I am totally on board with it! Although that is a fairly silly definition, given that "bias" suggests the exact opposite of taking the characteristic into account.

P.S. And if you think that today's Black people had to deal with consequences of anything comparable or even worse than Stalin's Gulags, Hitler's death camps and horrors of World War II... If you think that their great-grandfathers were more traumatized than those of the people from my country of birth... Well, it is unfortunate.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

"Support for racist policies, like Affirmative Action and DEI, are touted by leftists."

How is DEI racist?

Many DEI programs suggest that you can know someone's privileges, intentions, beliefs, victim/oppressor status, income level, and fragility, just by knowing their race.  DEI is racist system because it does not see someone as an individual, but merely an automaton of their racial group or class.  To argue that a rich Black person has fewer privileges than a poor white kid in Appalachia is asinine, but it is what many DEI courses have suggested.  The idea that privileges are white is a racist claim.  I've heard people claim that a poor white kid from Appalachia could walk around in a store and not be followed, while a Black kid would be.  What a racist and false claim.  This is something only someone who has never lived in Appalachia could believe.  Was I followed around in stores as a kid?  Yep - because I was a poor white kid in Appalachia.

So much of DEI wants to show favor or penalize a person based on their race.  This may be in hiring, or promotions, or in access to resources.  If you favor or penalize someone based on their race, you are engaging in racism.  I know that leftists think their racism is good and holy racism, but its just racism.

When you argue that COVID shows racism, that is also a racist claim.  COVID is a virus that does not care about your race.  A racist assumption of DEI is that all disparities are caused by racism.  That is not only a lie, its a racist notion.  Disparities can exist because of differences in behavior, genes, availability, or chance.  To assume that the cause is racism, is a truly racist belief that is not rooted in science or common sense.  For example, rural America had a much higher rate of COVID deaths.  Do you know why?  Rural America does not have a higher rate of minorities than the rest of the country.  But it does have a higher rate of older people who are much more likely to die from COVID.  People like ibram X Kendi claim that all disparities are race based.  This is just not true and to say it is is just not a mistaken notion, but pushes racist animosity and keeps real solutions from being considered to disparities.  

People will argue that it is OK to discriminate against a white kid or an Asian one because of past injustices to Blacks.  But the problem with this racist notion is that it a) believes you can blame all whites and Asians for things they did not do in the past because of their group, rather than their individual conduct, and b) it fails to see the merit of the individual.  Its noble to want to help people get ahead, but it is racist to penalize someone because of their race.  The appropriate response to racism is to repent of it.  Unfortunately, leftists are just doubling down on it.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: When he number goes up to $3 million the % falls to 27%.

@MayCaesar

"A recent study of ultra-rich Americans showed that almost three-quarters had help in building their fortunes."

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/personal-finance/articles/study-shows-only-27-of-wealthy-americans-are-self-made/

We seem to agree on so little that I am having trouble finding common ground. Your arguments are so off base that even basic assumptions we disagree on.

I had some doubt about historic trauma at first, but not inter-generational wealth. I got in a lot of trouble and was branded alt-right just for hesitating about historic trauma. Saying "I don't know I haven't done my research" was deemed very racist by the liberals.

I think you are missing the concepts of fast food swamps, food deserts, and other ghetto taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_poverty

That poor people pay more in both direct costs and indirect costs including opportunity costs. That someone who is born into affluence and can get into the baby ivies preschool with lots of tutors and ultra parents can legally recreate the varsity blues scandal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal

That as economic inequality widens that upwards economic mobility decreases. The best case against historic trauma is there are riches to rags stories where people born into great money lose it all.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Everyone who has achieved anything in life has had some help. The referenced article defines "self-made" as some sort of a horse in a vacuum that suddenly stroke it big, and by this definition even I am not self-made, despite showing up here with nothing, not even perfectly fluent language, and a lousy visa barely allowing me to do anything.
There is a difference though between becoming wealthy while at some point in your life taking opportunities other people provided you with - and becoming wealthy because of the inherited wealth. You were talking about the latter, and that is precisely what I was talking about as well.

I think you should worry less about who brands you what, and more about what is true and what is not. A lot of your arguments rely on someone approving or disapproving of something, which is a very shaky ground to stand on, for anyone can revoke/revert approval or disapproval at any moment.

All these arguments about poverty and inequality are cool and all... You have yet to explain how the darkness of someone's skin factors in them though. And taking it back to the original discussion, to explain why it is racist to treat everyone equally regardless of the color of their skin, but not racist to favor those who look like someone who centuries ago was mistreated by those who look like you or me.

just_sayin

Yo @Dreamer

Do you believe, as many DEI mandated courses teach that you can know someone's privileges, intentions, beliefs, victim/oppressor status, income level, and fragility, just by knowing their race?  I think this is a racist claim.  The only thing you can know about a person, if you only know their race, is that they are a person of a certain race.  That's it.  No other 'privileges' are universal.  

Do you think it is OK to favor some races, and penalize others, in hiring, promotions,  and in awards or resources? DEI policies often do.  Do you think it is just to impute the wrong doings of past people onto people who are alive today, just because they share the same race?  DEI does.  Do you think it is OK to not allow Asian and white kids to not take advanced course work because not enough Black and Hispanic students qualify for those courses?  Several states have adopted these DEI policies.  Is that just to more advanced Asian and white kids to not offer them more advanced courses which are needed to get into better colleges?  

You said MAGA is bad.  Explain to me how this kind of racial discrimination isn't bad.