Is the idea of 'sin' the most appallingly evil concept in the bible?

Barnardot

@Factfinder I throughly agree with you there and Dawkins really goes in to town on it in the God Delusion.

It boils down to one thing I reckon and that is that Christianity still works on old fashioned ideas and values and it just doesnt even make the mustard in you hot dog nower days. Hundreds of years a go religion used the gilt trip of sin to make people conform to all the other rules. And remember most people were pretty dum in those days because they didnt have much education and they were so super stitious and scarred of the unknown it wasnt funny so all that sin crap fitted in just right.

Fast forward to modern times and people just dont go for that gilt crap now and its no wonder that people are flocking out of churches in there droves. If Christianity wants to have any hope of surviving then I think they need to get off there aces and bring them selves in to the 21 first century and leave all that sin and hatred and bigotry and jellousy behind.

MayCaesar

It is a pretty bad one, but you have to consider the context. Human societies back when first Christian preachers were emerging were extremely collectivistic (perhaps by historical necessity), and the idea that people were servants of the collective and not self-sufficient individuals was considered obvious to everyone except a very small fraction of Greek-style philosophers. The idea that people are responsible for misdoings of others, including their ancestors (even if those ancestors lived thousands of years ago), perfectly aligns with this outlook.

Alex brings up a good steelman argument as well: that humans are born with predispositions to do certain animalistic things that are at odds with virtually all moral systems. From this perspective, "sin" is not a consequence of misdoings of one's ancestors or peers, but of their flawed biology. It is not their fault that their biology is flawed, but it is their responsibility to deal with its consequences.

To summarize, I would say that the concept of "sin" certainly has its issues, but it makes perfect sense in the historical context, and can be argued rationally even in the modern context (with some terminological adjustments). Given that similar concepts are found in virtually all religions and secular ideologies in human history, it is reasonable to hypothesize that something in human psychology makes us want to emphasize our imperfection and impurity. Perhaps it is as simple as the self-preservation instinct making us acutely aware of our flaws so they do not kill us.

It is definitely true that humans are more prone to focusing on their flaws than on their strengths. This has been something I have encouraged others not to do: when it comes to interaction with my friends or family members, for example, I always point out how awesome they are (and they always have something to warrant such praise). I think that our affinity to self-criticism is one of the most damaging properties of our psychology, and we must work very hard towards eliminating it. It is great to be aware of one's flaws; it is terrible to think that they make us unable to achieve certain things in life.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Yes, but it's a treacherous concept historically too; as the accumulative effect became apparent in culture. It is the instillment of this kind of hereditary guilt that kept women prisoners to wife beaters husbands in 50' and 60's before women finally started saying enough is enough. Their prevailing attitude was actually 'I must of done something wrong, I'll try harder'. That's just one way the predisposition of having a 'sin nature' effects societal behavior. I'm convinced religion comes about as a tool of manipulation, no matter the era of time. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Dawkins is the Devil's fool...and Dawkins will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist. The most appalling evil in Scripture is the rejection of the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ through unbelief; in fact, rejecting Jesus as Messiah is the ONLY sin today that will not be forgiven should one die in unbelief.

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Barnardot

@RickeyHoltsclaw @MayCaeser Well when it comes down to it I would rather die in Hell than live for eternity in Heaven. Just the idea of living for ever freaks me out no matter how luxurious the condos are up there. And just how many rounds of golf and plates of smoked salmon and visiting your loved ones can any one put up with. Certainly not for ever.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Barnardot said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw @MayCaeser Well when it comes down to it I would rather die in Hell than live for eternity in Heaven. Just the idea of living for ever freaks me out no matter how luxurious the condos are up there. And just how many rounds of golf and plates of smoked salmon and visiting your loved ones can any one put up with. Certainly not for ever.

@Barnardot ; You will receive what you desire...Hell will be your finalization. We each make that decision...you have made yours, enjoy.

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

@MayCaesar ;  Evolution is not biology or science...it's a religion for fools. Anyone who denies Jesus as Messiah will die in Hell in a most horrific way, this includes you (John 3). Elohim has told you everything that your religion of evolution seeks to explain through secularism...you refuse to listen and you will therefore reap what you sow in your atheism.

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Your fantasies do not change the fact that you are not even 0.00001% a man that Richard is. In fact, you are a negative percentage of him: he makes the world a better place, while you make it worse.

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Your fantasies do not change the fact that you are not even 0.00001% a man that Richard is. In fact, you are a negative percentage of him: he makes the world a better place, while you make it worse.

@MayCaesar ;  Jesus is not a fantasy; Dawkins is a fool and a servant of Satan.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Your fantasies do not change the fact that you are not even 0.00001% a man that Richard is. In fact, you are a negative percentage of him: he makes the world a better place, while you make it worse.

@MayCaesar ;  Jesus is not a fantasy; Dawkins is a fool and a servant of Satan.

Explain the answers science can't; with god. This is a religious forum so you can say 'god did it'. But you still won't have one bit of empirical evidence of support.

On the other hand I can say 'nature did it'. And all the evidence science does have to this point supports my position. 

No matter how many different ways you and speakers like Craig say 'god did it' you will never be able to produce that elusive evidence. 

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

You will receive what you desire...Hell will be your finalization. We each make that decision...you have made yours, enjoy. 

If this is a sample of your god's love, you prove the fact god is evil for creating 'sin' and subjecting us to it so it can torture living things forever. You emanate your masters unloving character. The exact opposite you claim it orders you.

Factfinder

@Barnardot

You made a great point. Infinity is incomprehensible for us to wrap our brains around. Their book even says we can't understand gods ways as they're so much above our cognitive abilities. So what's left? Worship me and I'll make content to sing 'alleluia' to me forever or I'll burn you forever? That's supposed to be freewill? Well, neither for me, thanks!

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Jesus championed love and compassion for everyone. I think that he would be even more disgusted with your behavior here if he were to see it than I am.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Exactly. It goes back to what Dawkins said, 'born in sin' is a hideous premise for worship. It enslaves everyone before they're born. Sin as defined in the bible is transgression of god's law. Most people think of the ten commandments of gods law where the first 4 are strictly about blindly worshipping god. 

Exodos 20: 1-10: And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God...

You couple that with gods original command in the garden...

Genesis 2:16&17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 There is only one conclusion one can come too. "Sin" wasn't about abstaining from criminal activity at all. It is only about not worshipping and obeying without question, god. And this is after god impugned adam and eve with a proclivity for temptation (sin). Sin came from the girth of the god of the bible. His creation were like mice in a cage trying to follow human verbal instructions for the first time. They had no chance and the evil self absorbed god new he would torture billions over this concept. Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

The god appears quite a prankster in this story! First hide virtually all evidence of your existence, so any rational inquiry results in the person concluding that there is not much out there beyond nature - while infusing everyone with this sticky substance called "sin". Then make it so that only the most irrational and gullible people, willing to listen to the first charlatan they come across, can come to the conclusion that they must perform bizarre foot-kissing rituals to clean themselves of this substance - and go to a place after death where their duty is to keep kissing your feet 24/7 (or however many hours/days there are in that place). And everyone who does not do that - well, to the purgatory with them.

Nice prank! If I was an extreme Chaotic Evil character, I could totally see myself doing something like this.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Exactly. It goes back to what Dawkins said, 'born in sin' is a hideous premise for worship. It enslaves everyone before they're born. Sin as defined in the bible is transgression of god's law. Most people think of the ten commandments of gods law where the first 4 are strictly about blindly worshipping god. 

Exodos 20: 1-10: And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God...

You couple that with gods original command in the garden...

Genesis 2:16&17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 There is only one conclusion one can come too. "Sin" wasn't about abstaining from criminal activity at all. It is only about not worshipping and obeying without question, god. And this is after god impugned adam and eve with a proclivity for temptation (sin). Sin came from the girth of the god of the bible. His creation were like mice in a cage trying to follow human verbal instructions for the first time. They had no chance and the evil self absorbed god new he would torture billions over this concept. Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; @MayCaesar

1) Anyone born of Adam's seed, including Dawkins, receives the genomic sin-nature from our first father via Federal Headship...we are his children by birth and our nature is likewise one of rebellion (Romans 5:12). You might not like it, you might not believe it, but we're all one huge family and the Adamic curse is reality and one of the reasons Jesus entered the Realm of Time was to reverse that curse, a curse which is a resultant of the Devil's works (1 John 3:8b).

It is written,

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”  Genesis 3 (ESV)

It is written,

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5 (ESV)

It is written,

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (ESV)

__________________________________

2) Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection and provided every form of sustenance imaginable, every luxury, every need. In order for Elohim to confirm Adam's love and loyalty Adam was provided a free will choice to choose whether he loved Elohim for "who" Elohim is or for "what" Elohim is; in other words, did Adam truly love Elohim with intimacy as his Creator or did Adam love Elohim for what Elohim could provide and was Elohim's provisions sufficient; was Adam content? Adam chose to compromise with evil and therefore Adam chose narcissistic pleasure as opposed to peace and contentment with his Creator, Elohim....Adam chose no differently than all of you as atheists. 

Adam, and every subsequent human being, possesses the free will to repent of their sin and believe, trust, in Elohim through Jesus by faith and restore that relationship lost and defiled by Adam's rebellion. You too have this option, all of you, but you choose to remain in your sin and die in same because your loyalty lies with the Devil and your fleshly indulgences and not in your Creator who loves you and gave Himself for you that you could live with Him eternally in peace.

 

 

21CenturyIconoclast

@Factfinder

YOUR ONCE AGAIN BIBLE INEPT QUOTE WHERE YOU DIDN'T FOLLOW THROUGH AGAIN:  "Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed."

DUH!  As I have told you many times at your embarrassing expense, like your quote above, where YOU said since god knew what was going to happen in the first place to his creation, AT LEAST give the appropriate chapter and verse in the JUDEO-Christian bible TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, get it BIBLE FOOL?  

THE CORRECT CHAPTER AND VERSE TO SUPPORT YOUR NOTION IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE, IS WHERE JESUS AS GOD IS "OMNISCIENT:"

"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John  3:20)

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." (Psalm 147:5)

BECAUSE OF YOUR CONTINUING BIBLE MINDEDNESS, LIKE RICKEYS, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO HIRE A SECRETARY TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL YOUR "VACANT" STATEMENTS RELATING TO THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE, WHERE YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THEM WITH BIBLICAL AXIOMS!  LOL!

.

Factfinder

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@Factfinder

YOUR ONCE AGAIN BIBLE INEPT QUOTE WHERE YOU DIDN'T FOLLOW THROUGH AGAIN:  "Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed."

DUH!  As I have told you many times at your embarrassing expense, like your quote above, where YOU said since god knew what was going to happen in the first place to his creation, AT LEAST give the appropriate chapter and verse in the JUDEO-Christian bible TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, get it BIBLE FOOL?  

THE CORRECT CHAPTER AND VERSE TO SUPPORT YOUR NOTION IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE, IS WHERE JESUS AS GOD IS "OMNISCIENT:"

"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John  3:20)

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." (Psalm 147:5)

BECAUSE OF YOUR CONTINUING BIBLE MINDEDNESS, LIKE RICKEYS, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO HIRE A SECRETARY TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL YOUR "VACANT" STATEMENTS RELATING TO THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE, WHERE YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THEM WITH BIBLICAL AXIOMS!  LOL!

.

I'm debating people with brains. That leaves you out. Get it? 

Defend your thoroughly debunked statement here if want to save what's left of your pathetic dignity...

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176265/#Comment_176265

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Exactly. It goes back to what Dawkins said, 'born in sin' is a hideous premise for worship. It enslaves everyone before they're born. Sin as defined in the bible is transgression of god's law. Most people think of the ten commandments of gods law where the first 4 are strictly about blindly worshipping god. 

Exodos 20: 1-10: And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God...

You couple that with gods original command in the garden...

Genesis 2:16&17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 There is only one conclusion one can come too. "Sin" wasn't about abstaining from criminal activity at all. It is only about not worshipping and obeying without question, god. And this is after god impugned adam and eve with a proclivity for temptation (sin). Sin came from the girth of the god of the bible. His creation were like mice in a cage trying to follow human verbal instructions for the first time. They had no chance and the evil self absorbed god new he would torture billions over this concept. Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; @MayCaesar

1) Anyone born of Adam's seed, including Dawkins, receives the genomic sin-nature from our first father via Federal Headship...we are his children by birth and our nature is likewise one of rebellion (Romans 5:12). You might not like it, you might not believe it, but we're all one huge family and the Adamic curse is reality and one of the reasons Jesus entered the Realm of Time was to reverse that curse, a curse which is a resultant of the Devil's works (1 John 3:8b).

It is written,

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”  Genesis 3 (ESV)

It is written,

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5 (ESV)

It is written,

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (ESV)

__________________________________

2) Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection and provided every form of sustenance imaginable, every luxury, every need. In order for Elohim to confirm Adam's love and loyalty Adam was provided a free will choice to choose whether he loved Elohim for "who" Elohim is or for "what" Elohim is; in other words, did Adam truly love Elohim with intimacy as his Creator or did Adam love Elohim for what Elohim could provide and was Elohim's provisions sufficient; was Adam content? Adam chose to compromise with evil and therefore Adam chose narcissistic pleasure as opposed to peace and contentment with his Creator, Elohim....Adam chose no differently than all of you as atheists. 

Adam, and every subsequent human being, possesses the free will to repent of their sin and believe, trust, in Elohim through Jesus by faith and restore that relationship lost and defiled by Adam's rebellion. You too have this option, all of you, but you choose to remain in your sin and die in same because your loyalty lies with the Devil and your fleshly indulgences and not in your Creator who loves you and gave Himself for you that you could live with Him eternally in peace.

 

 

Ricky, according to you and your bible god was the architect behind all of creation including man, the fall of man, evil, calamity all of it. God knew what would transpire under all conditions and circumstances well before the universe was created. That binds every player, every character, every event and every choice made with the limited cognitive abilities god gave, everything in the whole creation was bound to what god already knew ahead of time. And had no choice. The only logical alternative to that is your god isn't omniscient.  

MayCaesar

I am not sure if Rickey thinks that posting these cruel verses from the Bible makes the idea of sin look less evil, or if it is his point that it being evil is a necessary part of the divine plan?

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

I agree. According to scripture god is the embodiment of all that exist, nothing exist without god. So all the circular logic ricky pulls from the bible always leads back to god creating it. Long before we came along decided to make his creation take the blame for what god itself created. That's the delusion anyway.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Exactly. It goes back to what Dawkins said, 'born in sin' is a hideous premise for worship. It enslaves everyone before they're born. Sin as defined in the bible is transgression of god's law. Most people think of the ten commandments of gods law where the first 4 are strictly about blindly worshipping god. 

Exodos 20: 1-10: And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God...

You couple that with gods original command in the garden...

Genesis 2:16&17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 There is only one conclusion one can come too. "Sin" wasn't about abstaining from criminal activity at all. It is only about not worshipping and obeying without question, god. And this is after god impugned adam and eve with a proclivity for temptation (sin). Sin came from the girth of the god of the bible. His creation were like mice in a cage trying to follow human verbal instructions for the first time. They had no chance and the evil self absorbed god new he would torture billions over this concept. Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; @MayCaesar

1) Anyone born of Adam's seed, including Dawkins, receives the genomic sin-nature from our first father via Federal Headship...we are his children by birth and our nature is likewise one of rebellion (Romans 5:12). You might not like it, you might not believe it, but we're all one huge family and the Adamic curse is reality and one of the reasons Jesus entered the Realm of Time was to reverse that curse, a curse which is a resultant of the Devil's works (1 John 3:8b).

It is written,

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”  Genesis 3 (ESV)

It is written,

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5 (ESV)

It is written,

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (ESV)

__________________________________

2) Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection and provided every form of sustenance imaginable, every luxury, every need. In order for Elohim to confirm Adam's love and loyalty Adam was provided a free will choice to choose whether he loved Elohim for "who" Elohim is or for "what" Elohim is; in other words, did Adam truly love Elohim with intimacy as his Creator or did Adam love Elohim for what Elohim could provide and was Elohim's provisions sufficient; was Adam content? Adam chose to compromise with evil and therefore Adam chose narcissistic pleasure as opposed to peace and contentment with his Creator, Elohim....Adam chose no differently than all of you as atheists. 

Adam, and every subsequent human being, possesses the free will to repent of their sin and believe, trust, in Elohim through Jesus by faith and restore that relationship lost and defiled by Adam's rebellion. You too have this option, all of you, but you choose to remain in your sin and die in same because your loyalty lies with the Devil and your fleshly indulgences and not in your Creator who loves you and gave Himself for you that you could live with Him eternally in peace.

 

 

Ricky, according to you and your bible god was the architect behind all of creation including man, the fall of man, evil, calamity all of it. God knew what would transpire under all conditions and circumstances well before the universe was created. That binds every player, every character, every event and every choice made with the limited cognitive abilities god gave, everything in the whole creation was bound to what god already knew ahead of time. And had no choice. The only logical alternative to that is your god isn't omniscient.  

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42 ; @21CenturyIconoclast

Elohim is holy, perfect in righteousness...Elohim did not, cannot, create evil lest He compromise Himself and negate Himself as Elohim. Evil exists because free will exists and evil is a default of righteousness. Elohim is certainly omniscient but where you err is suggesting that Elohim's omniscience negates free will. Elohim created Adam in perfection as Elohim created the human genome in His sinless, perfect, holy, spiritual image and in doing so, Elohim imparted certain divine communicable attributes into the human genome; this, for His eschatological purposes going forward; primarily, this concerns the ongoing battle between Good v. Evil, a cosmic struggle initiated by a rebellious cherub before Time began and relegated to the Realm of Physics as a temporary abode for that war while holiness, righteousness, peace, are restored to the Kingdom. 

With that said, Elohim does NOT predestine or foreordain anyone to death in Hell, a life of debauchery as Hell was NOT created for humanity but for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41)...it is Elohim's sincere desire that everyone be saved from death in Hell and come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus our Messiah...this includes EVERYONE of you as well. 

 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

This is what you have to say about a person who has devoted his long life to hard scientific research and popularization of biology - that he "will most likely die in Hell in a most horrific way as will every unrepentant, unbelieving, atheist"? You fundamentalist Christians are twisted creatures.

Exactly. It goes back to what Dawkins said, 'born in sin' is a hideous premise for worship. It enslaves everyone before they're born. Sin as defined in the bible is transgression of god's law. Most people think of the ten commandments of gods law where the first 4 are strictly about blindly worshipping god. 

Exodos 20: 1-10: And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God...

You couple that with gods original command in the garden...

Genesis 2:16&17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 There is only one conclusion one can come too. "Sin" wasn't about abstaining from criminal activity at all. It is only about not worshipping and obeying without question, god. And this is after god impugned adam and eve with a proclivity for temptation (sin). Sin came from the girth of the god of the bible. His creation were like mice in a cage trying to follow human verbal instructions for the first time. They had no chance and the evil self absorbed god new he would torture billions over this concept. Before they were ever born god knew what was in store for them and he created them anyway. A very hideous concept indeed.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; @MayCaesar

1) Anyone born of Adam's seed, including Dawkins, receives the genomic sin-nature from our first father via Federal Headship...we are his children by birth and our nature is likewise one of rebellion (Romans 5:12). You might not like it, you might not believe it, but we're all one huge family and the Adamic curse is reality and one of the reasons Jesus entered the Realm of Time was to reverse that curse, a curse which is a resultant of the Devil's works (1 John 3:8b).

It is written,

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”  Genesis 3 (ESV)

It is written,

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Romans 5 (ESV)

It is written,

8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (ESV)

__________________________________

2) Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection and provided every form of sustenance imaginable, every luxury, every need. In order for Elohim to confirm Adam's love and loyalty Adam was provided a free will choice to choose whether he loved Elohim for "who" Elohim is or for "what" Elohim is; in other words, did Adam truly love Elohim with intimacy as his Creator or did Adam love Elohim for what Elohim could provide and was Elohim's provisions sufficient; was Adam content? Adam chose to compromise with evil and therefore Adam chose narcissistic pleasure as opposed to peace and contentment with his Creator, Elohim....Adam chose no differently than all of you as atheists. 

Adam, and every subsequent human being, possesses the free will to repent of their sin and believe, trust, in Elohim through Jesus by faith and restore that relationship lost and defiled by Adam's rebellion. You too have this option, all of you, but you choose to remain in your sin and die in same because your loyalty lies with the Devil and your fleshly indulgences and not in your Creator who loves you and gave Himself for you that you could live with Him eternally in peace.

  

 

Ricky, according to you and your bible god was the architect behind all of creation including man, the fall of man, evil, calamity all of it. God knew what would transpire under all conditions and circumstances well before the universe was created. That binds every player, every character, every event and every choice made with the limited cognitive abilities god gave, everything in the whole creation was bound to what god already knew ahead of time. And had no choice. The only logical alternative to that is your god isn't omniscient.  

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42 ; @21CenturyIconoclast

Elohim is holy, perfect in righteousness...Elohim did not, cannot, create evil lest He compromise Himself and negate Himself as Elohim. Evil exists because free will exists and evil is a default of righteousness. Elohim is certainly omniscient but where you err is suggesting that Elohim's omniscience negates free will. Elohim created Adam in perfection as Elohim created the human genome in His sinless, perfect, holy, spiritual image and in doing so, Elohim imparted certain divine communicable attributes into the human genome; this, for His eschatological purposes going forward; primarily, this concerns the ongoing battle between Good v. Evil, a cosmic struggle initiated by a rebellious cherub before Time began and relegated to the Realm of Physics as a temporary abode for that war while holiness, righteousness, peace, are restored to the Kingdom. 

With that said, Elohim does NOT predestine or foreordain anyone to death in Hell, a life of debauchery as Hell was NOT created for humanity but for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41)...it is Elohim's sincere desire that everyone be saved from death in Hell and come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus our Messiah...this includes EVERYONE of you as well. 

 

You err in suggesting we had freewill to not choose what god foreknew about our choices before we are ever presented with choices. You have not disclosed how, if god knew I'd reject him before I was born, how do I break out of that column of unescapable knowledge? What god knows is what he has known, and will know, and according to omniscience will always be known. So you're wrong, we are predestined according to your book. Just as the Jews were predestined to be gods chosen people to reveal himself to the world. 

Romans 8:29:  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42 ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @John_C_87 ; @jack

You said: Quote...

"You err in suggesting we had freewill to not choose what god foreknew about our choices before we are ever presented with choices. You have not disclosed how, if god knew I'd reject him before I was born, how do I break out of that column of unescapable knowledge? What god knows is what he has known, and will know, and according to omniscience will always be known. So you're wrong, we are predestined according to your book. Just as the Jews were predestined to be gods chosen people to reveal himself to the world. 

Romans 8:29:  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Christian Response...

Romans 8:29 tells you that Elohim foreknew you and predestined you to conform to the image of Jesus Christ via the imputation by faith but you chose to conform to the image of Elohim's nemesis, Satan. 

Consider this as it's most relevant,

Elohim also foreknew and foreordained Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, as the Patriarchy of a people Elohim called "the apple of my eye" (Zechariah 2:8) and Elohim lavished them with His covenants and provisions and protection and sustenance as they were to be the progenitors of His Messiah through Judah; Messiah Yeshua came directly, specifically, to Israel's children (Matthew 15:24) to proselytize them in the New Covenant's Gospel and prepare them as ministers of the Gospel to the entire World via the Great Commission; this, in fulfillment of Elohim's promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:3b); unfortunately, Israel's children (like you and other atheists in this forum) rejected their Messiah; Israel's children rejected the New Covenant and the Gospel; Israel's children via free will rejected their ordination as ministers of the Great Commission; Israel's children conspired with Rome to murder their Messiah upon a tree while exclaiming that Messiah's blood be upon them and their children (Matthew 27:25); therefore, Elohim in Jesus was broken and crushed due their rejection (Matthew 23:37) and ultimately the Gospel and the Great Commission were taken from Israel and given to the Gentile; this, until the fullness of the Gentiles have entered the Kingdom (Romans 11:25; Acts 13:46) and Israel has subsequently, consequently, been placed under judgment and only a "remnant" of Israel's children will escape the "second death" in Hell due their unbelief and their blindness (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27); therefore, even though Elohim poured Himself and His divine codified laws and covenants into Israel's children, it was their rejection, their unbelief, their stubbornness, that overrode Elohim's divine will and ordination of Israel's children...you are no different...you have been given Jesus as Mediator for your sin by faith yet you err in wisdom and judgment and discernment exactly like Israel's children, to this very day. This is why you and May and Zeus and 21CenturyIconoclast and @John_C_87 are destined to die in Hell...you have chosen this path through your own arrogance and free will.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42 ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @John_C_87 ; @jack

You said: Quote...

"You err in suggesting we had freewill to not choose what god foreknew about our choices before we are ever presented with choices. You have not disclosed how, if god knew I'd reject him before I was born, how do I break out of that column of unescapable knowledge? What god knows is what he has known, and will know, and according to omniscience will always be known. So you're wrong, we are predestined according to your book. Just as the Jews were predestined to be gods chosen people to reveal himself to the world. 

Romans 8:29:  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Christian Response...

Romans 8:29 tells you that Elohim foreknew you and predestined you to conform to the image of Jesus Christ via the imputation by faith but you chose to conform to the image of Elohim's nemesis, Satan. 

Consider this as it's most relevant,

Elohim also foreknew and foreordained Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, as the Patriarchy of a people Elohim called "the apple of my eye" (Zechariah 2:8) and Elohim lavished them with His covenants and provisions and protection and sustenance as they were to be the progenitors of His Messiah through Judah; Messiah Yeshua came directly, specifically, to Israel's children (Matthew 15:24) to proselytize them in the New Covenant's Gospel and prepare them as ministers of the Gospel to the entire World via the Great Commission; this, in fulfillment of Elohim's promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:3b); unfortunately, Israel's children (like you and other atheists in this forum) rejected their Messiah; Israel's children rejected the New Covenant and the Gospel; Israel's children via free will rejected their ordination as ministers of the Great Commission; Israel's children conspired with Rome to murder their Messiah upon a tree while exclaiming that Messiah's blood be upon them and their children (Matthew 27:25); therefore, Elohim in Jesus was broken and crushed due their rejection (Matthew 23:37) and ultimately the Gospel and the Great Commission were taken from Israel and given to the Gentile; this, until the fullness of the Gentiles have entered the Kingdom (Romans 11:25; Acts 13:46) and Israel has subsequently, consequently, been placed under judgment and only a "remnant" of Israel's children will escape the "second death" in Hell due their unbelief and their blindness (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27); therefore, even though Elohim poured Himself and His divine codified laws and covenants into Israel's children, it was their rejection, their unbelief, their stubbornness, that overrode Elohim's divine will and ordination of Israel's children...you are no different...you have been given Jesus as Mediator for your sin by faith yet you err in wisdom and judgment and discernment exactly like Israel's children, to this very day. This is why you and May and Zeus and 21CenturyIconoclast and @John_C_87 are destined to die in Hell...you have chosen this path through your own arrogance and free will.

You make my point with your scripture. You, me, everyone according to your god is chained to our destiny by what god knows before we are born. No wonder you think you're special. Believe or else. No matter how you slice it, it's not freewill. 

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR PATHETIC QUOTE OF BIBLE INEPTNESS CONTINUES AT YOUR LAUGHABLE EXPENSE AGAIN!:  “Elohim is holy, perfect in righteousness...Elohim did not, cannot, create evil lest He compromise Himself and negate Himself as Elohim.” https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176347/#Comment_176347

HEADS UP BIBLE DUMMY RICKEY!  Your LIE in your statement above in saying that Jesus, AS GOD, could not create evil, whereas, Jesus as GOD did create evil in the first place as explicitly shown in the following passage: “I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create evil; I am the Lord, who does all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

Therefore, YOU LIED AGAIN about your serial killer god named Jesus, whereas you are destined to HELL upon your demise because of YOU LYING AGAIN relative to the scriptures!

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

YOUR RESPONSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP RELATIVE TO THIS POST: 

NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE “RICKEYHOLTSCLAW” THAT CONTINUALLY LIES ABOUT THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE, WILL BE …?

.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR ONCE AGAIN BIBLE QUOTE IN LYING BY QUOTING THIS VERSE: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176347/#Comment_176347

WRONG BIBLE FOOL! Jesus himself explicitly says that ONLY A FEW and NOT ALL are heaven bound;  

"And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter AND NOT BE ABLE" (Luke 13:23-24)


YOUR RESPONSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP RELATIVE TO THIS POST: 


RICKEY, WE ARE GETTING TIRED OF YOU "LYING ABOUT THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE," THEREFORE, DO YOU WANT TO TAKE SOME TIME OFF FROM THIS FORUM WHERE WE ARE MAKING YOU THE OUTRIGHT BIBLE FOOL? YES?

.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

WHEN DOES YOUR OUTRIGHT BIBLE STUPIDITY EVER STOP?!


YOUR QUOTE AGAIN IN LYING ABOUT HELL!: "With that said, Elohim does NOT predestine or foreordain anyone to death in Hell,"
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176347/#Comment_176347

WRONG AGAIN BIBLE FOOL!  Jesus states with specificity the following verses in CONTRADICTING YOUR DUMB QUOTE ABOVE!  

1. JESUS PROMOTES HELL!!!: "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8)

2. JESUS WILL THROW HIS CREATION INTO HELL:  “My friends, don’t be afraid of people. They can kill you, but after that, there is nothing else they can do. God is the one you must fear. Not only can he take your life, BUT HE CAN THROW YOU INTO HELL. God is certainly the one you should fear!” (Luke 12:4-5)


YOUR RESPONSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP RELATIVE TO THIS POST: 

MEMBERSHIP, DO YOU ALSO NOTICE THAT RICKEY IS GETTING MORE BIBLE IN HIS RECENT UNGODLY POSTS? LOL!

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; @MayCaesar ; @Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42

Jesus died for you so that Hell would NOT be your eternal destiny (John 3:16). Hell was not created for human kind but Hell was created specifically for Satan and his demonic-angels (Matthew 25:41); humanity enters Hell by choice; that is, a free will choice to reject the love, forgiveness, New Covenant relationship with Elohim by grace (unmerited favor that cannot be earned through human effort) through faith-trust-belief in Jesus as one's Messiah who died for them (John 3). 

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  Matthew 25:41

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42

It is the will of Elohim that all men and women be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning salvation that is found ONLY in Jesus as one's Messiah by faith (1 Timothy 2:3-4) and Jesus died to make this possible as Jesus gave His life, shed His innocent blood, as atonement for our sin (1 Peter 1:18-19; Matthew 26:28); unfortunately, only a relatively "few" will accept Elohim's offer of eternal life through faith in Jesus as Messiah; this, even through the Father has given His all for our redemption and salvation through the Son. Examples of those who have chosen to die in Hell in unbelief are over-represented in this forum...apparently, you are but one example.

I find it odd that the AI which censors this forum allows you to post your arrogance and insults but when I quote them and try to post your quotes along with my response, the AI censors the entire quote...odd how the AI is apparently WOKE as well and programmed to honor the devil. Satan is the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2).

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR PATHETIC QUOTE AGAIN IN LYING ABOUT JESUS BEING THE MESSIAH!:  "it is Elohim's sincere desire that everyone be saved from death in Hell and come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus our Messiah."

Tell the membership in how long you want to remain the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum?


SHORT VERSION OF JESUS NOT BEING THE MESSIAH AS RICKEY SAID IN HIS QUOTE ABOVE:

1. Jesus’ mother Mary was a LEVITE:  "Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth who is the descendent of Aaron, therefore placing MARY in the tribe of LEVI:  “And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived* a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God.” MARY SAID; “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:36-38)

2. Jesus’ Step-Father Joseph, was from the blood line of David:  "So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David." (Luke 2:4)

Simply put, according to the prophecies in the Old Testament, Jesus IS NOT from the blood line of David as shown in proposition number one and two above because Paul substantiates this biblical axiom herewith: “Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, who was descended from David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH” (Romans 1:3).

Barring the fact that Paul was WRONG in the Romans 1:3 verse above when he said Jesus was the Messiah, nonetheless, Jesus can only be from the blood line of King David “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!” Since Jesus’ mother MARY was a LEVITE, and since Joseph was from the blood line of King David, he was NOT in the act of impregnating MARY "ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" as biblically stated ( Luke 1:35), THEN JESUS CANNOT BE THE MESSIAH because the ONLY blood line that was used, was through MARY being a LEVITE!   GET IT? Huh?

Furthermore, remember the embarrassment of the VIRGIN BIRTH comical scenario?  Where Jesus in being the son of MARY through his Holy Spirit, impregnated his own mother MARY through celestial INCEST from SON to MOTHER, WOW! (Matthew 1:18) 

Therefore, Jesus' blood line TROUGH MARY being a LEVITE, Jesus cannot be the Messiah!  2+2=4.

YOUR RESPONSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP RELATIVE TO THIS POST: 

.

RickeyHoltsclaw

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR PATHETIC QUOTE OF BIBLE INEPTNESS CONTINUES AT YOUR LAUGHABLE EXPENSE AGAIN!:  “Elohim is holy, perfect in righteousness...Elohim did not, cannot, create evil lest He compromise Himself and negate Himself as Elohim.” https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/176347/#Comment_176347

HEADS UP BIBLE DUMMY RICKEY!  Your LIE in your statement above in saying that Jesus, AS GOD, could not create evil, whereas, Jesus as GOD did create evil in the first place as explicitly shown in the following passage: “I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create evil; I am the Lord, who does all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

Therefore, YOU LIED AGAIN about your serial killer god named Jesus, whereas you are destined to HELL upon your demise because of YOU LYING AGAIN relative to the scriptures!

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

YOUR RESPONSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP RELATIVE TO THIS POST: 

NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE “RICKEYHOLTSCLAW” THAT CONTINUALLY LIES ABOUT THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE, WILL BE …?

.

@Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @ZeusAres42 ; @MayCaesar

The King James Translators of the 1611 Authorized Version were rather sloppy translators and they took liberty with repetitious additions. Isaiah 45:7 uses the Hebrew word "ra" which has various meanings as the context must be considered in translation from Hebrew into English. The translators of the "New King James Version" (NKJV) made the proper correction in context. Elohim does not create "evil" as this is contrary to His holiness and purity yet evil exists due free will as a default to good, righteousness.

 New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Standard Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

NASB 1995
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NASB 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.