Is Christianity a copy cat religion?

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RICKEY, the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum, bar none,

RICKEY, HEADS UP FOR THE THIRD TIME!  You are still running away from addressing my godly posts below within this thread, is it because you are to embarrassed about your Jesus as god as I have explicitly shown in the posts below?  SCARED AGAIN IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP TO ADDRESS THEM?

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180683/#Comment_180683

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180684/#Comment_180684

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180685/#Comment_180685

BEGIN:

RICKEY, You always fail to realize that your brutal serial killer Jesus as god is watching you RUN AWAY from even trying to defend his faith as shown herewith: “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.” (Hebrews 4:13)

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ;  If only you possessed the intellect and ability to express your concerns about Christianity in an understandable way so that one could provide rebuttal and an exegesis but you are apparently unable as your hate, vitriol, for Jesus and the Cross consume and stymie your wisdom and discernment.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RickeyHoltsclaw, the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum, bar none,

YOUR RUNAWAY POST TO DISTURBING BIBLICAL AXIOMS THAT YOU CANNOT ADDRESS, WHERE YOU ARE TO EMBARRASSED TO EVEN TRY:    "If only you possessed the intellect and ability to express your concerns about Christianity in an understandable way so that one could provide rebuttal and an exegesis but you are apparently unable as your hate, vitriol, for Jesus and the Cross consume and stymie your wisdom and discernment."

The above embarrassing quote by you as being the number one bible runaway fool of this religion forum, is precluding that the following disturbing posts that you could not address, other than to RUN AWAY from them in your embarrassing quote above, are in fact, true!

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180683/#Comment_180683

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180684/#Comment_180684

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180685/#Comment_180685

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181004/#Comment_181004

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181062/#Comment_181062

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181063/#Comment_181063

Therefore Rickey, the membership thanks you for coming to terms with your outright BIBLE STU-PIDITY because you could not refute the above posts and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath.

RICKEY, since you cannot defend your primitive Bronze and Iron Age religion of Christianity, you have let your serial killer Jesus of innocent babies and children very disappointed, because he said you are to defend the faith herewith:

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5) 

"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9) 

Rickey, you are EVIL because you ran away from at least "trying" to defend Jesus' Christianity, where you are to perform this act as shown above, therefore upon your demise the obvious will prevail in your behalf herewith: Jesus stated: “So it will be at the end of the age. THE ANGELS WILL COME OUT AND SEPARATE THE EVIL from the righteous AND THROW THEM INTO A FIREY FURNACE. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:49-50).   

FELLOW MEMBERS:  I have at times asked you to try and help our number one Bible Fool RickeyHoltsclaw relative to his Bible ignorance, but as you can see now, it would be a fruitless situation to do so because his demise as shown above is already made known, and you would be wasting your time.

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Whenever you truly desire, if you possess the courage, to discuss Scripture, I invite you to state or write or articulate a short, succinct, premise based in theology and I'll debate your position on the subject matter but until then...you can rant, rave, hate, blather, but you're just another atheistic fool shouting at the moon.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Whenever you truly desire, if you possess the courage, to discuss Scripture, I invite you to state or write or articulate a short, succinct, premise based in theology and I'll debate your position on the subject matter but until then...you can rant, rave, hate, blather, but you're just another atheistic fool shouting at the moon.

Objections to your cult have been articulated. You just don't have the cognitive ability to respond in a comprehensive way as you only say what the bible says like the verses are supposed to be magical. Then make excuses when you contradict what the bible says and then make excuses for the bible when it contradicts you. You yourself have no philosophical integrity that you can articulate in your own words even though you claim to have a personal relationship with supposedly the creator of intelligent philosophical wisdom. Proving once again you've just been made self willed ignorant via indoctrination. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Christianity is not a cult, try harder?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Christianity is not a cult, try harder?

Your falsehood is irrelevant. It is a cult and offers no divine wisdom. You are absolute proof of that fact, willingly albeit ignorantly. Do you tire of being second to atheist wisdom and truth telling?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Christianity is not a cult nor is it a religion....you are a cult-a religion in your false atheism...self-deceit defined.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Christianity is not a cult nor is it a religion....you are a cult-a religion in your false atheism...self-deceit defined.

Ricky's Christian brother...


I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

YOUR LAUGHABLE PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN QUOTE OF EXCUSE #598 TO TO RUN AWAY FROM DISTURBING GODLY PASSAGES!: "Whenever you truly desire, if you possess the courage, to discuss Scripture, I invite you to state or write or articulate a short, succinct, premise based in theology and I'll debate your position on the subject matter but until then.."

I have had no problems with courage in presenting your primitive JUDEO-Christian bible as SICK!  The only one that doesn't have courage to defend this fact of mine, IS YOU as explicitly shown in your pre-school RUNAWAY excuses and tactics to said bible!

Rickey, in refuting your Bible Stupidity and ignorance and your run away status to these facts, FactFinder said it best in his quote to you in this link, whereas I couldn't have said it better:
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181114/#Comment_181114

I will continue at your embarrassing expense to address your bible ineptness that has no bounds, AND YOU on the other hand, will now remain silent to myself easily making you the continued BIBLE FOOL, because you don't want to add to your embarrassment to become a hypocrite to your quote above, understand? GET IT?





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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; I will never be embarrassed by Satan's fool...you can't even structure an intelligible premise...you're irrelevant until you do...I've got Jesus....You've got Satan...enjoy.

 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Christianity is not a cult nor is it a religion....you are a cult-a religion in your false atheism...self-deceit defined.

Atheism is not a cult nor is it a religion....you are a cult-a religion in your false christian cult...self-deceit defined.



I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/

Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too.

Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam.

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder Unfortunately, the provocative claim that Adolf Hitler was a Christian keeps making its rounds. The claim, which is really an accusation leveled at all Christians, is fueled entirely by those with an axe to grind against religion in general and Christianity in particular. Objective historical evidence and common sense both indicate that Hitler was not, in any reasonable sense, a Christian.

Adolph Hitler’s family was Catholic, but all available sources indicate that Hitler was uninterested in Catholicism as a child. Once away from his mother’s care, Hitler never again participated in the rites of the Catholic Church. As an adult, Hitler frequently derided religion and those who practiced it. Christianity in particular, with its emphasis on love and peace, was something Hitler despised. In fact, Hitler was more attracted to Islam’s militant expansionism than to the “weakness” of Christianity. Albert Speer, Hitler’s Minister of Armaments and War Production, wrote that Hitler told him, “The Mohammedan religion . . . would have been much more compatible to us [Germans] than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” (Speer, Albert. Inside the Third Reich (New York: Avon, 1971, p. 734).

U.S. intelligence information obtained during and after WWII shows that Hitler would have preferred to purge Germany of Christianity before the war, but he felt the church was a necessary evil. The Nazi-led German Christian group took control of the German Evangelical Church in 1933 and demanded conformity to Hitler’s political and ideological agenda. In response to Hitler’s takeover of the national church, about one third of the clergy formed the Confessing Church in 1934. The Confessing Church started with the goal of reforming the German Christians and bringing the church back to the basics of the gospel, but members of the Confessing Church soon realized that Hitler’s National Socialist Party was deeply anti-Christian. The suppression of the Confessing Church and the direct persecution of its members are clear examples of Hitler’s stance on faith. Hitler was not a Christian; rather, he viewed the national church as a means of reinforcing his policies.

Hitler was strongly influenced by the anti-Christian philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. This influence shows in Hitler’s private remarks on religion, as related by surviving associates. Hitler described Christianity as an “absurdity,” “an invention of sick brains,” and so forth. It’s interesting to note that Hitler spoke of religion using many of the same terms as modern-day misotheists; yet some of these modern voices attempt to peg Hitler as a Christian.

Beyond any reasonable doubt, Hitler wasn’t any kind of “Christian” at all. A person who hates what Christianity represents, who persecutes the faithful in the church, and who espouses principles totally contrary to Christ’s teachings is clearly not a Christian. Had we no information about Hitler’s personal beliefs, we could still say that Hitler’s acts—such as murdering millions of people—cannot be blamed on Christianity. Hitler was no follower of Christ.

Those who claim Hitler was a Christian are, for the most part, attempting to disparage religion. The primary tactic in such cases is to claim that Hitler never renounced his Catholic faith and that he often made positive references to God, religion, and the church. It is true that, in public speeches and official press releases, Hitler often seemed friendly to Christianity. But we must remember that Hitler was a politician—not just a politician but a propagandist willing to sink to any level of immorality to gain power. To argue meaningfully that Hitler was a Christian, we’d have to begin by assuming that a politician bent on genocide wasn’t being dishonest or manipulative in his campaign speeches.

Hitler considered religion a necessary evil and a tool to be manipulated until after he won the war. He was not a classic atheist as were various Communist dictators, but he was not a Christian. There is no rational reason to connect Hitler to Christianity.

https://www.gotquestions.org/was-Hitler-a-Christian.html

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/

Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too.

Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam.

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

Hitler said he was Christian. Others say he wasn't. Christ said he was Christ. Others said he wasn't. If what others claim is true, then Christ isn't Christ. If what the person actually said is true then Hitler was Christian. You can't have it both ways. I proved Hitler was Christian by his own mouth, you haven't even proved the right Jesus was on the cross. 


I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Hitler was not a Christian...Hitler is of the same ilk and god as you, Satan. Christian's don't seek the murder of Jews or Israeli's...that is the goal of your father, Satan via Islam. Shame on you atheist.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Hitler was not a Christian...Hitler is of the same ilk and god as you, Satan. Christian's don't seek the murder of Jews or Israeli's...that is the goal of your father, Satan via Islam. Shame on you atheist.

Jesus was not Christ. Jesus is of the same ilk and god as you, Satan. Atheists don't seek the murder of Jews or Israeli's...that is the goal of your father, Satan via Christianity. Shame on you theist.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Jesus is Messiah, without Him as your Messiah, you will perish in Hell in your sin.

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”  John 4

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Jesus is Messiah, without Him as your Messiah, you will perish in Hell in your sin.

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”  John 4

Hitler said he was Christian. Others say he wasn't. Christ said he was Christ. Others said he wasn't. If what others claim is true, then Christ isn't Christ. If what the person actually said is true then Hitler was Christian. You can't have it both ways. I proved Hitler was Christian by his own mouth, you haven't even proved the right Jesus was on the cross. 


I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; No, Hitler was an atheist, not a Christian.

Hitler and you are blood brothers for which Hell awaits with justice.

NO...Hitler was an atheist...you and he will both stand in the same judgment.

Hitler was NOT a Christian. He hated Christianity. If he made any public remarks in support of Christianity, that was because he was in public and would lie or obfuscate to appease a crowd at times. Hitler was opposed to atheism because  he was a spiritual man: “atheism… is a return to the  state of the animal…” (Hitler's Table Talk, pg 59). But opposition to atheism doesn’t make anyone a Christian. Nazism was his religion, an authentic religion of his own creation (yes, life is SO much better when people create their own personal religions in a search for “authenticity,” ha).

Hitler's Table Talk is a compilation of sayings by Hitler in private conversations that were recorded by other Nazis. It is a good source for what Hitler really thought.

“…the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.” –, pg 61

“It’s Christianity that’s the . It’s in perpetual conflict with itself.” –, pg 61

“In the long run, National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together.” –, pg 6

“Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.” –, pg 145

“As far as we are concerned, we’ve succeeded in chasing the Jews from our midst and excluding Christianity from our political life.” –, pg 394

“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity.” –, pg 418

“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society. Thus one understands that the healthy elements of the Roman world were proof against this doctrine.” –, pg 75-76

“When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” –, pg 145

“Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar. We are entering into a conception of the world that will be a sunny era, an era of tolerance.” –, pg 343-344

“Pure Christianity—the Christianity of the catacombs—is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind.” –, pg 146

“Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it’s the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back fifteen centuries.” –, pg 322

“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its key-note is intolerance.” –, pg 7

“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains : one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. A negro with his tabus is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in Transubstantiation.” –, pg 144

“It took fourteen centuries for Christianity to reach the peak of savagery and stupidity.” –, pg 314

“Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.” –, pg 7

“We must recognise, of course, that, amongst us, Christianity is coloured by Germanism.” –, pg 46

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 No, Hitler was an atheist, not a Christian.

Do you get this stoopid by working at it or did your christian mommy have a failed abortion since 7 of 10 christian women abort their spawn?

From "Mein Kampf": "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." And ...

"His [the Jewish person's] life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In retum, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties — and this against their own nation."

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."


I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Hitler sought obedience from a large Catholic and Protestant population while simultaneously working with Islam to develop the "Final Solution" concerning the murder of the Jewish population. Don't you see that Hitler was a cunning politician and his behavior was the antithesis of Christian doctrine? Why is this commonsense discernment so difficult for an atheist?

 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Hitler sought obedience from a large Catholic and Protestant population while simultaneously working with Islam to develop the "Final Solution" concerning the murder of the Jewish population. Don't you see that Hitler was a cunning politician and his behavior was the antithesis of Christian doctrine? Why is this commonsense discernment so difficult for an atheist?

 

Yes I do see Hitler for what he was. The fact is the behavior he exhibited emulated biblical scripture on so many levels and he did say he was Christian before he changed about 15 times to different sects. But you don't see how your rants mimic hitler's approach to what you deem as an affront to societal norms. His rants sounded similar to yours now.  I don't use terminology like "delusional' to be insulting. Whether he was a christian or not, he said he was at one time and he truly believed he was doing gods will. That happened because he was familiar with both testaments. Get it yet? Your talk of expunging atheists whom you wouldn't even know on site,  from American society is exactly like the fascist rhetoric that permeated Hitler's speeches and more so, his private thoughts. No doubt as his actions indicated which we're all aware. Why do you think in your meme above; it depicts anything different then what your bible depicts Jews should do to people? Your bible has scribes telling Israelites to 'rip open pregnant women' amongst other horrible atrocities. You go through metal gymnastics to justify such evil brutality ultimately cause you think hell could exist. You see why I say 'delusional'? 

Hosea 13:15 & 16:  15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Factfinder

As the entire membership can readily see, our number one BIBLE DUNCE "RICKEYHOLTSCLAW" is still running away and hiding from Jesus' inspired passages shown below that I presented to him, and why are we not surprised, because he is to Bible inept to answer them! LOL!

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180683/#Comment_180683
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180684/#Comment_180684
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180685/#Comment_180685
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181004/#Comment_181004
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181062/#Comment_181062
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181063/#Comment_181063


 


FACTFINDER: I forgot to ask you regarding the image above and relating to RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, where we must wonder in how many pseudo-christian friends of his has he had to murder because they were working on the Sabbath, like Jesus' commands for him to do in his name, as shown below?:

"While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the  Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron  and to all the congregation. They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. And the Lord said to Moses, THE MAN SHALL BE. PUT TO DEATH; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”  And all the congregation brought him outside the camp AND STONED HIM TO DEATH WITH STONES, as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-34)


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Factfinder

@21CenturyIconoclast

Well I don't see him coming up with a rational answer that's for sure. It'd be not completely out of the question (considering it's ricky) to find out he has murdered someone who offended his childish faith.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Factfinder

....................................   RICKEYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101  .................................

Poor Lot’s wife just looked back and Jesus as god was pissed and turned her into a salt statue!

“But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.” (Genesis 19:26)

Lot’s two daughters in having ungodly incestuous sex with him, is okay with Jesus as god!

“ Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.” That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.  The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.”  So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. SO BOTH OF LOT’S DAUGHTERS BECAME PREGNANT BY THEIR FATHER.”  (Genesis 1932-36)

We can only wonder that if RickeyHoltsclaw's wife ever died before he wanted more children, and where if he has one or more daughters, he therefore could biblically sleep with his daugther(s) because Jesus took a “blinds eye” to this incestuous act before as shown in the verse above! 2+2=4.  

I know I don’t have to preach to the choir to you, whereas the JUDEO-Christian bible is just full of family incest with its notable characters!  We have accepted Noah and his 2 daughters in incestuous acts, and then we have Adam and Eve, and their 3 sons in the beginning in having incestuous relations with Eve to populate the world with gods Jewish creation!

Then take Noah and his wife, sons, and their wives, having once again incestuous acts with all of their family members to once again repopulate gods Jewish creation worldwide because Jesus as god screwed up the first time because he was pissed at his creation, and had to have his Great Flood scenario to murder them, especially innocent zygotes, fetus,' and babies with the womb, as an ABORTION ACT!  Bad god Jesus, tsk, tsk, tsk!

WHO WANTS TO BECOME A PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE ...."RICKEYHOLTSCLAW" .... SO YOU TOO CAN HAVE BIBLE MORALITY FAMILY DISCUSSIONS IN SHOWING YOUR CHILDREN THAT GOD ACCEPTS THAT “FAMILY INCEST IS OKAY" …… RAISE YOUR HANDS!

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Still waiting for an intelligent, comprehensible, rebuttable, premise from you as Satan's fool.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

You don't matter anymore, because I will continue to post the TRUTH about your disgusting and primitive Bronze and Iron Age bible without your laughable refutations anymore, understood?  

Case in point, you could no more defend your Jesus as God, or your bible, relative to my post linked below where it blatantly shows that Jesus has to accept FAMILY INCESTUOUS RELATIONS relative to bible morality!  LOL!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

Run along now, your bible stupidity and running away from same, does not count anymore, praise your serial killer Jesus!

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Still waiting for a succinct, comprehensible, relevant, premise, from Satan's servant.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Still waiting for a succinct, comprehensible, relevant, premise, from Satan's servant.

Prove it. Define the words succinct, comprehensible, relevant, premise, as you used them erroneously expecting a premise based on your childish belief Santa, er I mean Satan exists and has servants.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw




RICKEYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101

As we have seen, Rickey cannot address my disturbing bible posts anymore, therefore he has to use his child like excuse to RUN AWAY from them embarrassingly shown herewith: "Still waiting for a succinct, comprehensible, relevant, premise, from Satan's servant."

Therefore, there is absolutely no need for discussion with this Bible FOOL anymore as I easily embarrass him over his Bronze and Iron Age bible!


RICKEY'S BIBLE SAYS TO KILL ANYONE THAT TRIES TO  MAKE YOU WORSHIP ANOTHER GOD!  

We can only wonder in how many times Rickey had to kill friends, or other inept pseudo-christians like himself, that tried to make him worship another pagan god concept, and then he can pray to his serial killer Jesus as god afterwards to be forgiven like this passages states:  "To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)

Therefore, there is no incentive for the pseudo-christian NOT TO SIN if they are always forgiven by "believing" as the verse above so states! 

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Still waiting for a sensible, comprehensible, premise from Satan's atheistic servant.

just_sayin

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Christianity is a faith-based relationship with our Creator, a relationship that is predicated upon the necessity of free will, a choice to serve Elohim, the Father, through faith in the Son, Jesus Christ. One chooses to be a Christian, they cannot initiate covenant with the Father via coercion, trickery, threat, fear, compulsion, works, dedication to service...the "choice" to enter into New Covenant relationship with the Father is by faith; that is, the individual chooses via free will to believe and trust in Jesus as their Messiah and they believe what the Father has provided in the Canon and through the Son and by the anointing of the Holy Spirit is divinely inspired TRUTH and the Christian seeks to live their life in obedience to the Father's will, NOT out of compulsion or fear but because they Love the Father, the Son, the Spirit because Elohim first loved us and gave Himself for us that we might be victorious over this life and reign with Him in the life to come. 

MayCaesar

A healthy relationship in my world is one based on mutual respect, support and equality. Two beings share both joy and hardships, take care of their own needs and help their partner take care of theirs. Have reasonable boundaries and keep each other accountable. If one of the partners goes astray, the other one gently helps them back.

I do not see how having a torture dungeon in the basement and the prospective of one of the partners ending up there in case they fail to satisfy the other's expectations is conducive to that. "Hey, our relationship is that of love and mutual growth! Now, could you please go clean the dungeon? I think the iron maiden's spikes have gotten a little dusty".

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Christianity is a faith-based relationship with our Creator, a relationship that is predicated upon the necessity of free will, a choice to serve Elohim, the Father, through faith in the Son, Jesus Christ. One chooses to be a Christian, they cannot initiate covenant with the Father via coercion, trickery, threat, fear, compulsion, works, dedication to service...the "choice" to enter into New Covenant relationship with the Father is by faith; that is, the individual chooses via free will to believe and trust in Jesus as their Messiah and they believe what the Father has provided in the Canon and through the Son and by the anointing of the Holy Spirit is divinely inspired TRUTH and the Christian seeks to live their life in obedience to the Father's will, NOT out of compulsion or fear but because they Love the Father, the Son, the Spirit because Elohim first loved us and gave Himself for us that we might be victorious over this life and reign with Him in the life to come. 

Yes I'm familiar with your indoctrination. But what you run away from and that what we'd like an opinion in your own words on is why the bend the knee or else ultimatum mingled in with this "grace" delusion?

This is your doctrine, you're afraid to extrapolate on your thoughts, in your own words, of what it actually means. Come on, explain these verses...

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Your god expects you to sacrifice your dignity for it's self serving petty glory. Or else...

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

Yes I'm familiar with your indoctrination. But what you run away from and that what we'd like an opinion in your own words on is why the bend the knee or else ultimatum mingled in with this "grace" delusion?

This is your doctrine, you're afraid to extrapolate on your thoughts, in your own words, of what it actually means. Come on, explain these verses...

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Your god expects you to sacrifice your dignity for it's self serving petty glory. Or else...

@Factfinder

1) In reference to "Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Do you understand the context and to whom Jesus is speaking?

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles (Matthew 10 - context)

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers,cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. 9 Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Persecution Will Come

16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.  Matthew 10 (ESV)

Response:

In context, Jesus is speaking to His Disciples as He is sending them on a missionary trip to share the Gospel of the Kingdom and Jesus is preparing them for the Gentile atheistic and Jewish hatred they would receive and the future persecution that all but one would receive culminating in horrible forms of martyrdom.

Jesus is reassuring them that the death of the body is not death of the spirit but that they will live forever...not to fear those who kill the body but to honor the One who has adjudicatory authority over the soul - spirit in Eternity.

2) You mock Elohim and suggest He is a tyrant for the following commands, 

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Your god expects you to sacrifice your dignity for it's self serving petty glory. Or else...

Response:

What you do not understand concerning this commandment from Elohim to the Hebrew Tribes is the fact that Elohim had just suffered through the demonically rooted rebellion of two-generations, the Adamic and Noahic generations, which had fallen prey to demonic influence via pagan rituals and pagan rites and their behavior had devolved to such an extent that these generations nullified their ability to be progenitors of the Messiah who was foreordained before Time was created to enter Time and "to destroy the works of the Devil" (1 John 3:8b) via a battle strategy known as the "Gospel;" a battle strategy ordained "before Time began" (2 Timothy 1:8-10).

In fact, the Adamic and Noahic generations reached such a lowly state of depravity that Elohim confessed a sincere sorrow for having created human kind due the evil that was continuously in the heart of humanity and that which had manifest through their self-defilement (Genesis 6:5).

For this reason, Elohim destroyed all of humanity save eight, Noah and his family, and Elohim began anew through Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and Elohim sanctified the Patriarchy and the twelve-children of Jacob commanding them repeatedly that they were to be holy as Elohim is Holy (Leviticus 21:8; Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 1:16). 

Elohim took the initiative to engrave relevant chosen segments of the "law of conscience" into stone tablets and these commandments given Moses at Mt. Sinai were designed to be instructions concerning Israel's sanctification - a "setting apart" of Israel's children for eschatological purposes; Commandment's 1-4 referenced Israel's responsibilities toward Elohim; 5-10 referenced Israel's responsibilities concerning interpersonal relationships. These commandments were given as a bulwark against Israel's compromise with the demonic paganism that surrounded and inundated the Hebrew Tribes during their journey to the land promised them through Abraham, especially abhorrent to Elohim was any form of compromise with the pagan gods of Baal and Molech. 

Elohim DID NOT WANT A REPEAT OF THE FAILURES OF THE ADAMIC AND NOAHIC GENERATIONS but Elohim desired that Israel's children be the progenitors of Messiah and fulfill Elohim's unconditional promise to Abraham concerning Abram's seed being a "blessing to every family of the Earth" (Genesis 12:3b); this would ultimately manifest through Jacob's child "Judah" the progenitor of the Messiah concerning the flesh.

This is why such a staunch and threatening tone is taken by Elohim toward those He had sanctified for incredible eschatological purposes concerning the defeat of Satan at Golgotha through the Messiah and the Great Commission concerning the proliferation of the Gospel throughout the World before the Tribulation Era and the initiation of the Millennial Kingdom and the Judgment of the Condemned and ultimately the destruction of this Earth and the Heavens and the formation of a New Earth and a New Heaven whereupon will be placed the New Jerusalem where the faithful will serve Elohim forever in resurrected bodies fashioned after the glorified body of our resurrected Messiah (Philippians 3:21; Revelation 20-22).

 

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

The fundamental belief of Christianity is that we all fall short of God's standards and will never measure up on our own merit.  At the initiation of a person's relationship with God, they are forgiven - eternal damnation is therefore not a consequence of  a believer's sins.  Now if you want to reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit - that is your choice and God will honor it.  To claim though that Christians live in fear of hell is just not the case.  People obey God because they respect Him and know that following his commands is for their benefit and well-being here on earth - their eternal destiny was settled the moment they asked God to forgive them.  

Why do you misrepresent the most fundamental belief of Christianity? 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  - Ephesians 2:8-9

Does God have rules?  Sure.  However, my salvation is settled.  His rules are for my benefit.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

The fundamental belief of Christianity is that we all fall short of God's standards and will never measure up on our own merit.  At the initiation of a person's relationship with God, they are forgiven - eternal damnation is therefore not a consequence of  a believer's sins.  Now if you want to reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit - that is your choice and God will honor it.  To claim though that Christians live in fear of hell is just not the case.  People obey God because they respect Him and know that following his commands is for their benefit and well-being here on earth - their eternal destiny was settled the moment they asked God to forgive them.  

Why do you misrepresent the most fundamental belief of Christianity? 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  - Ephesians 2:8-9

Does God have rules?  Sure.  However, my salvation is settled.  His rules are for my benefit.  

Who chose to "reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit"? That's a lie and another nail in the coffin of you're faith. Why do you lie and never answer the question as to why you lie on purpose? According to your fairytale your god put us in that position. Why do you lie to yourself? People obey Putin because they're afraid of him, he god too? 

I present the whole truth of Christianity and you know it. Grace is an unconditioned act. https://www.compassion.com/christian-faith/bible-verses-about-grace.htm#:~:text=God's grace is usually defined,in our relationship with him. 

Your god puts conditions on grace, you submit to an eternality of feeding gods ego, and you know it. That's the standard, merit you must satisfy.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

The fundamental belief of Christianity is that we all fall short of God's standards and will never measure up on our own merit.  At the initiation of a person's relationship with God, they are forgiven - eternal damnation is therefore not a consequence of  a believer's sins.  Now if you want to reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit - that is your choice and God will honor it.  To claim though that Christians live in fear of hell is just not the case.  People obey God because they respect Him and know that following his commands is for their benefit and well-being here on earth - their eternal destiny was settled the moment they asked God to forgive them.  

Why do you misrepresent the most fundamental belief of Christianity? 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  - Ephesians 2:8-9

Does God have rules?  Sure.  However, my salvation is settled.  His rules are for my benefit.  

Who chose to "reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit"? That's a lie and another nail in the coffin of you're faith. Why do you lie and never answer the question as to why you lie on purpose? According to your fairytale your god put us in that position. Why do you lie to yourself? People obey Putin because they're afraid of him, he god too? 

I present the whole truth of Christianity and you know it. Grace is an unconditioned act. https://www.compassion.com/christian-faith/bible-verses-about-grace.htm#:~:text=God's grace is usually defined,in our relationship with him. 

Your god puts conditions on grace, you submit to an eternality of feeding gods ego, and you know it. That's the standard, merit you must satisfy.

You said 'god put us in that position' but that isn't really accurate is it?  Instead, each person is judged for their own sins.  You act like God, the creator of the universe, has no right to expect any level of ethical conduct from His creation.  You are mad that God judges you for your bad behavior.  Yet you don't even live up to your own standards, let alone God's. It seems foolish to be mad at God for rejecting your bad behavior, when you yourself reject your own bad behavior also.   And yet, you say He is unjust to hold you accountable for your bad behavior???  God is just and will judge sin.  And God is merciful and has provided a means of salvation.  He didn't have to do that.  Unlike other religions, Christianity is not merit based.  When we acknowledge God's existence and our sin and ask for His forgiveness, he cancels all the charges against us.

You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.  He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. - Colossians 2:13-15 NLT

You see God as the unjust one.  Yet, you ignore your own wrong doing.  God is not unjust to offer forgiveness; for our sins were against Him.  If he wants to give you an opportunity of forgiveness for your offenses, and have them paid for by Jesus' sacrifice, it is in His right to do so.  For the Christian, at the beginning of our relationship with God, our eternal destiny has already been assured, we don't earn it or work for it.  Christians don't live in fear of going to hell, they know God has already forgiven them.  If the condition for grace is to acknowledge God exists and that I have sinned and need God's grace and forgiveness, then that seems like a great offer.  I don't pay the price for my sins, because Christ has already done the hard part, and paid the price for me.  Grace - its a wonder thing.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

The fundamental belief of Christianity is that we all fall short of God's standards and will never measure up on our own merit.  At the initiation of a person's relationship with God, they are forgiven - eternal damnation is therefore not a consequence of  a believer's sins.  Now if you want to reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit - that is your choice and God will honor it.  To claim though that Christians live in fear of hell is just not the case.  People obey God because they respect Him and know that following his commands is for their benefit and well-being here on earth - their eternal destiny was settled the moment they asked God to forgive them.  

Why do you misrepresent the most fundamental belief of Christianity? 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  - Ephesians 2:8-9

Does God have rules?  Sure.  However, my salvation is settled.  His rules are for my benefit.  

Who chose to "reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit"? That's a lie and another nail in the coffin of you're faith. Why do you lie and never answer the question as to why you lie on purpose? According to your fairytale your god put us in that position. Why do you lie to yourself? People obey Putin because they're afraid of him, he god too? 

I present the whole truth of Christianity and you know it. Grace is an unconditioned act. https://www.compassion.com/christian-faith/bible-verses-about-grace.htm#:~:text=God's grace is usually defined,in our relationship with him. 

Your god puts conditions on grace, you submit to an eternality of feeding gods ego, and you know it. That's the standard, merit you must satisfy.

You said 'god put us in that position' but that isn't really accurate is it?  Instead, each person is judged for their own sins.  You act like God, the creator of the universe, has no right to expect any level of ethical conduct from His creation.  You are mad that God judges you for your bad behavior.  Yet you don't even live up to your own standards, let alone God's. It seems foolish to be mad at God for rejecting your bad behavior, when you yourself reject your own bad behavior also.   And yet, you say He is unjust to hold you accountable for your bad behavior???  God is just and will judge sin.  And God is merciful and has provided a means of salvation.  He didn't have to do that.  Unlike other religions, Christianity is not merit based.  When we acknowledge God's existence and our sin and ask for His forgiveness, he cancels all the charges against us.

You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.  He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. - Colossians 2:13-15 NLT

You see God as the unjust one.  Yet, you ignore your own wrong doing.  God is not unjust to offer forgiveness; for our sins were against Him.  If he wants to give you an opportunity of forgiveness for your offenses, and have them paid for by Jesus' sacrifice, it is in His right to do so.  For the Christian, at the beginning of our relationship with God, our eternal destiny has already been assured, we don't earn it or work for it.  Christians don't live in fear of going to hell, they know God has already forgiven them.  If the condition for grace is to acknowledge God exists and that I have sinned and need God's grace and forgiveness, then that seems like a great offer.  I don't pay the price for my sins, because Christ has already done the hard part, and paid the price for me.  Grace - its a wonder thing.

What I said is accurate if you believe the bible, you don't? And who asked prior to their birth to be born into a situation where eternal judgment is dispensed not based on actions but an arbitrary word called "sin"? Arbitrarily defined as "unbelief" in turn is explained as disobedience to gods commands, thus refusing to worship god, all of which center around the submission of our will to its will entirely forever. Or be tortured forever because the mental faculties your god provided logically leads to logical conclusions nothing in existence points to a hidden god, and that bruises your imagined gods ego I.E. yours cause you believe the nonsense.  You're wrong about one more thing, it's not about behavior, criminal or not, no what merits "forgiveness" for being born what you are; is sufficiently denying logic in what's observable in reality and accept without question that which there is no trace of. Now can you prove that you of freewill chose these circumstances before your birth and decided before your indoctrination you'd reject reality based fact so you could obey gods command and believe a rock exist so therefore the exact god of the fallible bible exist? 

And no, the lies you keep telling yourself about me being mad at god just reinforces the fact you must lie to personally reassure your faith. Which is the beginning of the end of it actually though you will resist reality as long as you can anyway. 

Instead of consistently, foolishly misdiagnosing my reasons for rejecting your god try providing legitimate reasons for accepting it. I accept what I've done wrong in life. Why would you assume I ignore it? I just happen to know that not accepting to be friends with that which is by ALL manor of detection; nonexistent and imaginative, so therefore I know it isn't worthy of eternal punishment to reject imaginary offers. There is no crime in that scenario even on the off chance it wasn't completely imaginary.

Told you. "Sin" even according to you is arbitrarily defined. God created and orchestrated personally the conditions that moved creation in the direction it took so intensely it knows the number of hairs on all our heads, then says cause we exist as we were created we are in sin and need of forgiveness. Not because of any atrocious act or anything, but cause we wanted to explore on or own instead of sit in its court and worship what by all accounts is imaginary. And as far as "Christians don't live in fear of going to hell, they know God has already forgiven them" goes that's just another way of saying you're escaping hell because you blindly accept bible dogma. It's how you feel secure in the thought you obeyed gods demand for ALL your attention, by its desire thus meeting its standard that will merit your portion of saving grace. If not then explain why hell is mentioned is some way more so then heaven in your book? The command to fear, bend the knee or else, pain, lots of eternal pain...again your god warning of the one thing that will send you to hell. A warning replete throughout the entire bible...


Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Something that stands out in Christianity, that differs from most religions, is that it is not merit based.  Whereas other religions are about what you must do to obtain heaven or enlightenment, and where in some religions your good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on scales to see if you did enough good deeds, Christianity is a religion about grace.  The fundamental belief in Christianity is that we are all sinners and not able to do enough to merit heaven.  God forgives us at the initiation of that relationship.  We may continue to struggle and fall short of God's standard, and even our standards, but God has claimed us, in a act of grace.  Our merits are not considered, just our willingness to accept His offer.  

That's why I have a hard time relating to atheistic claims that Christians live in terror of going to hell.  Surely, we don't want anyone to go to a place without God's felt presence - though some atheists claim it is their idea of heaven.  However, our relationship with God, is not about a fear that we will be utterly rejected, God accepted us up front.  Our relationship with God is one of love and of trying to grow in that relationship.  

Christianity is the quintessential case of merit based religion. It not only calls for submission, but submission of 100%  of your mind, the essence of your existence 100% of the time forever. That's the price for so called 'grace'. Merit based religion of the highest caliber. Otherwise hell. 

Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

So you can hold to the feel good part of indoctrination and think you have peace as long as you pretend the other half of your doctrine doesn't exist.

The fundamental belief of Christianity is that we all fall short of God's standards and will never measure up on our own merit.  At the initiation of a person's relationship with God, they are forgiven - eternal damnation is therefore not a consequence of  a believer's sins.  Now if you want to reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit - that is your choice and God will honor it.  To claim though that Christians live in fear of hell is just not the case.  People obey God because they respect Him and know that following his commands is for their benefit and well-being here on earth - their eternal destiny was settled the moment they asked God to forgive them.  

Why do you misrepresent the most fundamental belief of Christianity? 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  - Ephesians 2:8-9

Does God have rules?  Sure.  However, my salvation is settled.  His rules are for my benefit.  

Who chose to "reject God's grace and be judged on your own merit"? That's a lie and another nail in the coffin of you're faith. Why do you lie and never answer the question as to why you lie on purpose? According to your fairytale your god put us in that position. Why do you lie to yourself? People obey Putin because they're afraid of him, he god too? 

I present the whole truth of Christianity and you know it. Grace is an unconditioned act. https://www.compassion.com/christian-faith/bible-verses-about-grace.htm#:~:text=God's grace is usually defined,in our relationship with him. 

Your god puts conditions on grace, you submit to an eternality of feeding gods ego, and you know it. That's the standard, merit you must satisfy.

You said 'god put us in that position' but that isn't really accurate is it?  Instead, each person is judged for their own sins.  You act like God, the creator of the universe, has no right to expect any level of ethical conduct from His creation.  You are mad that God judges you for your bad behavior.  Yet you don't even live up to your own standards, let alone God's. It seems foolish to be mad at God for rejecting your bad behavior, when you yourself reject your own bad behavior also.   And yet, you say He is unjust to hold you accountable for your bad behavior???  God is just and will judge sin.  And God is merciful and has provided a means of salvation.  He didn't have to do that.  Unlike other religions, Christianity is not merit based.  When we acknowledge God's existence and our sin and ask for His forgiveness, he cancels all the charges against us.

You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.  He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. - Colossians 2:13-15 NLT

You see God as the unjust one.  Yet, you ignore your own wrong doing.  God is not unjust to offer forgiveness; for our sins were against Him.  If he wants to give you an opportunity of forgiveness for your offenses, and have them paid for by Jesus' sacrifice, it is in His right to do so.  For the Christian, at the beginning of our relationship with God, our eternal destiny has already been assured, we don't earn it or work for it.  Christians don't live in fear of going to hell, they know God has already forgiven them.  If the condition for grace is to acknowledge God exists and that I have sinned and need God's grace and forgiveness, then that seems like a great offer.  I don't pay the price for my sins, because Christ has already done the hard part, and paid the price for me.  Grace - its a wonder thing.

What I said is accurate if you believe the bible, you don't? God has put us here, your bible says so if that's what you believe. And who asked prior to their birth to be born into a situation where eternal judgment is dispensed not based on actions but an arbitrary word called "sin"? Arbitrarily defined as "unbelief" in turn is explained as disobedience to gods commands, thus refusing to worship god, all of which center around the submission of our will to its will entirely forever. Or be tortured forever because the mental faculties your god provided logically leads to logical conclusions nothing in existence points to a hidden god, and that bruises your imagined gods ego I.E. yours cause you believe the nonsense.  You're wrong about one more thing, it's not about behavior, criminal or not, no what merits "forgiveness" for being born what you are; is sufficiently denying logic in what's observable in reality and accept without question that which there is no trace of. Now can you prove that you of freewill chose these circumstances before your birth and decided before your indoctrination you'd reject reality based fact so you could obey gods command and believe a rock exist so therefore the exact god of the fallible bible exist? 

And no, the lies you keep telling yourself about me being mad at god just reinforces the fact you must lie to personally reassure your faith. Which is the beginning of the end of it actually though you will resist reality as long as you can anyway. 

Instead of consistently, foolishly misdiagnosing my reasons for rejecting your god try providing legitimate reasons for accepting it. I accept what I've done wrong in life. Why would you assume I ignore it? I just happen to know that not accepting to be friends with that which is by ALL manor of detection; nonexistent and imaginative, so therefore I know it isn't worthy of eternal punishment to reject imaginary offers. There is no crime in that scenario even on the off chance it wasn't completely imaginary.

Told you. "Sin" even according to you is arbitrarily defined. God created and orchestrated personally the conditions that moved creation in the direction it took so intensely it knows the number of hairs on all our heads, then says cause we exist as we were created we are in sin and need of forgiveness. Not because of any atrocious act or anything, but cause we wanted to explore on or own instead of sit in its court and worship what by all accounts is imaginary. And as far as "Christians don't live in fear of going to hell, they know God has already forgiven them" goes that's just another way of saying you're escaping hell because you blindly accept bible dogma. It's how you feel secure in the thought you obeyed gods demand for ALL your attention, by its desire thus meeting its standard that will merit your portion of saving grace. If not then explain why hell is mentioned is some way more so then heaven in your book? The command to fear, bend the knee or else, pain, lots of eternal pain...again your god warning of the one thing that will send you to hell. A warning replete throughout the entire bible...


Mathew 10:28: And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Exodus 20:3-7: “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

MayCaesar

The obvious thing Christians systematically miss is that if "god" truly created the entire Universe, then said "god" also caused everything that happened in this Universe. For instance, every time someone murders someone else, they do so because the Universe "god" created led them to do so.

That is yet another reason why I find comparison between Christianity and Communism so apt: in both the idea of central planning is venerated. In the former the "god" is the central planner, while in the latter it is the Central Committee. In both cases mere plebs like you and me are nothing but cogs in the machine. The idea of individual sovereignty is not even on the radar here. And Communists, at least, do not subject those who have displeased them to eternal torment: one's tenure in Gulags is going to eventually end as their mind and body will give up. Stalin who has murdered tens of millions seems quite innocent, compared to a creature that allegedly has sent billions upon billions of humans (and, perhaps, lesser animals too?) to be tortured for eternity. And we do not even know if there are alien species out there... What if the Universe has trillions of civilizations, each supplying "Hell" with billions to trillions of souls every Solar year?

I am not sure what love someone can hold for a creature like this, unless their psychology is completely twisted. It seems to me that if "god" really existed, then it would be by far the most vicious creature in the entire Multiverse, and slaying the beast would be the greatest accomplishment. In such a Multiverse whoever comes up with technology that can kill "god" is the greatest liberator ever to live.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

I see close correlations' between all centralized oppressively authoritarian governments and the biblical power structures stressed in scripture. Not just communism. Always a head figure surrounded by the most loyal of staff dispensing the tenets of its rule over the masses where the power at the top remains unchecked and unquestioned lest you pay a severe price. The bible is replete with figure heads pronouncing judgments not of a criminal concern, but of a personal desire from the top figurehead, or a claim of it being done on its behalf if the main man, figure head happens to be imaginary. But check out this vision of gods court in the bible and tell me governments don't emulate it in ways, keep in mind this is just one chapter explaining part of gods "kingdom"...

Revelation 4:

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

Indeed. I would go further and suggest that authoritarianism is merely a consequence of the deeper phenomenon: dismissal of individual autonomy. All of these ideas, at the end of the day, are grounded in the assumption that the life of the intelligent being only has value as long as it serves some "bigger purpose": the nation, the collective, the god, the family... That one's life is worthless unless it in some way is sacrificed on the altar of "higher good".

Of course, humans cannot be trusted to make their sacrifice without a little "nudging". Hence the need for the Central Committee, or the Council of Elders, or the Holy See. More progressive people claim that only "god" himself can hold his children accountable. All of them are afraid of the individual making his own decisions and pursuing his own happiness. That is an uncontrolled variable, and that is scary.

Luckily, this kind of thinking seems to be (very-very slowly) dying. The new generations are more interested in virtual worlds and AIs, than sermons and plenums. Give it a few more decades, and religion will be much like VHS tapes: something a tiny fraction of overly nostalgic people cares about, and everyone else only sees it in museums.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

The obvious thing Christians systematically miss is that if "god" truly created the entire Universe, then said "god" also caused everything that happened in this Universe. For instance, every time someone murders someone else, they do so because the Universe "god" created led them to do so.

That is yet another reason why I find comparison between Christianity and Communism so apt: in both the idea of central planning is venerated. In the former the "god" is the central planner, while in the latter it is the Central Committee. In both cases mere plebs like you and me are nothing but cogs in the machine. The idea of individual sovereignty is not even on the radar here. And Communists, at least, do not subject those who have displeased them to eternal torment: one's tenure in Gulags is going to eventually end as their mind and body will give up. Stalin who has murdered tens of millions seems quite innocent, compared to a creature that allegedly has sent billions upon billions of humans (and, perhaps, lesser animals too?) to be tortured for eternity. And we do not even know if there are alien species out there... What if the Universe has trillions of civilizations, each supplying "Hell" with billions to trillions of souls every Solar year?

I am not sure what love someone can hold for a creature like this, unless their psychology is completely twisted. It seems to me that if "god" really existed, then it would be byfar the most vicious creature in the entire Multiverse, and slaying the beast would be the greatest accomplishment. In such a Multiverse whoever comes up with technology that can kill "god" is the greatest liberator ever to live.

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

The obvious thing Christians systematically miss is that if "god" truly created the entire Universe, then said "god" also caused everything that happened in this Universe. For instance, every time someone murders someone else, they do so because the Universe "god" created led them to do so.

That is yet another reason why I find comparison between Christianity and Communism so apt: in both the idea of central planning is venerated. In the former the "god" is the central planner, while in the latter it is the Central Committee. In both cases mere plebs like you and me are nothing but cogs in the machine. The idea of individual sovereignty is not even on the radar here. And Communists, at least, do not subject those who have displeased them to eternal torment: one's tenure in Gulags is going to eventually end as their mind and body will give up. Stalin who has murdered tens of millions seems quite innocent, compared to a creature that allegedly has sent billions upon billions of humans (and, perhaps, lesser animals too?) to be tortured for eternity. And we do not even know if there are alien species out there... What if the Universe has trillions of civilizations, each supplying "Hell" with billions to trillions of souls every Solar year?

I am not sure what love someone can hold for a creature like this, unless their psychology is completely twisted. It seems to me that if "god" really existed, then it would be byfar the most vicious creature in the entire Multiverse, and slaying the beast would be the greatest accomplishment. In such a Multiverse whoever comes up with technology that can kill "god" is the greatest liberator ever to live.

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

Wrong again. Do you read your bible? God creates ,we procreate, big difference bible wise. What you call 'free moral gents' is in reality "bend the knee or else". Why do you avoid that fact of scripture? Could it be there is no way to spin it other than to make the delusional claim it's our freewill to be put in that position and decide from only those two choices? That is not an example of free agency. In any sane reality that is. 

You pray to an imaginary god, have absolutely no quid pro quo pattern of definitive 'prayer answering' that can be verified independently, same said god gets history and science wrong in its inspired word, you admit you have no morals of your own as they stem from the same fallible book; THEN you project your anger onto others for their calm rationale rejection of your myths and make silly accusations that they are angry at you fantasy god. Not to mention always misrepresenting what people say. To claim that as 'forcing world views onto you' is the height of Christian hypocrisy.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

Wrong again. Do you read your bible? God creates ,we procreate, big difference bible wise. What you call 'free moral gents' is in reality "bend the knee or else". Why do you avoid that fact of scripture? Could it be there is no way to spin it other than to make the delusional claim it's our freewill to be put in that position and decide from only those two choices? That is not an example of free agency. In any sane reality that is. 

You pray to an imaginary god, have absolutely no quid pro quo pattern of definitive 'prayer answering' that can be verified independently, same said god gets history and science wrong in its inspired word, you admit you have no morals of your own as they stem from the same fallible book; THEN you project your anger onto others for their calm rationale rejection of your myths and make silly accusations that they are angry at your fantasy god. Not to mention always misrepresenting what people say. To claim that as 'forcing world views onto you' is the height of Christian hypocrisy.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

Depends. As far as I know, my mother just had sex with my dad, and I was the offspring. Or did I miss the part where she used AutoCAD to intelligently design me? If she had, then any court on this planet would hold her responsible for the misdoings of the entity she designed and released into the world.

Then again, I did not even talk about responsibility; I talked about causality. As usual, you are replying to something that no one has said. You try to play your life on easy mode by picking and choosing which parts of reality to accept and which to twist... Comes with religion, does it not?