xlJ_dolphin_473 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw
Atheism is not a religion; it is better thought of as a-theism rather than athe-ism. The only factor uniting all atheists is the lack of belief in a god. There are many claims you do not believe - that does not make you a member of thousands of religions, one for each claim.

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; At least I'm not a baby murdering, LGBTQ perverse, HAMAS loving, Marxist.

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Spoken like a true ignorant christian.

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

 @Factfinder

Not trickery - that's a definitive lie.  He said 'sorcery'.  That means he believed Jesus demonstrated magical powers.  He even listed healing the lame, and healing the blind.  

You lied and got called out on it.

No, you're called out again...

On Christ’s miracles, Celsus argues that he worked his miracles by “sorcery” and that they were no more superior to the deeds of the Egyptians and others in the magic arts (6). The miracles are just fables invented by the disciples. Further, Christ’s prediction of his own death was invented by the disciples and his purported resurrection is nothing unique in comparison to the likes of Zamolxis, Pythagoras, and Rhampsinit (7). In fact, the resurrection has its origin in a hysterical female as well as in the wishful thinking of Christ’s followers (8). This is why Celsus ridicules Christians for their use of blind faith instead of reason: “For just as among them scoundrels frequently take advantage of the lack of education of gullible people and lead them wherever they wish, so also this happens among the Christians… some do not even want to give or to receive a reason for what they believe”

https://jamesbishopblog.com/2020/06/23/greek-philsopher-celsus-on-the-historical-jesus/

He may not of used the specific word 'trickery' but intelligent people not driven to lie for a false god know for a fact his description inferred trickery. As 'magic' relies on deception as in making up stories and creating illusions. "Sorcery" was considered part of the magic arts and you knew that. So you were 'tricked' by the sorcery or you're simply lying again Just_sayin, which is it? 

48 [Celsus' Jewish critic]: the Christians deemed Jesus to be the Son of God, because he healed the lame and the blind. and moreover, because, as they assert, he raised the dead. 49. O light and truth! he distinctly declares, with his own voice, as ye yourselves have recorded, that there will come to you even others, employing miracles of a similar kind, who are wicked men, and sorcerers; and he calls him who makes use of such devices, one Satan. - Origen book 2:48-49

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

 @Factfinder

Not trickery - that's a definitive lie.  He said 'sorcery'.  That means he believed Jesus demonstrated magical powers.  He even listed healing the lame, and healing the blind.  

You lied and got called out on it.

No, you're called out again...

On Christ’s miracles, Celsus argues that he worked his miracles by “sorcery” and that they were no more superior to the deeds of the Egyptians and others in the magic arts (6). The miracles are just fables invented by the disciples. Further, Christ’s prediction of his own death was invented by the disciples and his purported resurrection is nothing unique in comparison to the likes of Zamolxis, Pythagoras, and Rhampsinit (7). In fact, the resurrection has its origin in a hysterical female as well as in the wishful thinking of Christ’s followers (8). This is why Celsus ridicules Christians for their use of blind faith instead of reason: “For just as among them scoundrels frequently take advantage of the lack of education of gullible people and lead them wherever they wish, so also this happens among the Christians… some do not even want to give or to receive a reason for what they believe”

https://jamesbishopblog.com/2020/06/23/greek-philsopher-celsus-on-the-historical-jesus/

He may not of used the specific word 'trickery' but intelligent people not driven to lie for a false god know for a fact his description inferred trickery. As 'magic' relies on deception as in making up stories and creating illusions. "Sorcery" was considered part of the magic arts and you knew that. So you were 'tricked' by the sorcery or you're simply lying again Just_sayin, which is it? 

It was by means of sorcery that He [Jesus] was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed;  - Origen book 1:6

48 [Celsus' Jewish critic]: the Christians deemed Jesus to be the Son of God, because he healed the lame and the blind. and moreover, because, as they assert, he raised the dead. 49. O light and truth! he distinctly declares, with his own voice, as ye yourselves have recorded, that there will come to you even others, employing miracles of a similar kind, who are wicked men, and sorcerers; and he calls him who makes use of such devices, one Satan. - Origen book 2:48-49

You just keep digging you hole deeper. Biblically, Satan is the deceiver, he performs no miracles as he tricks people into thinking he does, he only appears as an angel of light, remember? "Sorcery" was a way of expressing they didn't know how a magical wonder was done but knew it was a deception of some kind. Which is why diviners, soothsayers, magicians, sorcerers, charlatans and the like were not to be consulted in Israel.  No miracle powers involved. Hence the product of magicians are referenced 'magic tricks'.  So in essence you just supported what I was saying. I take it you were tricked by the sorcery? Have you read the bible?

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

I read it and understand it for what it says. He spoke in terms of claims being made by the church then went on to refute them. Either you can't read or you're lying, which is it? Satan has the power to deceive (trick) and not to do divine works. According to your fairytale book...

Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:43-45
Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Corinthians 11:13 &14
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Sorcery, trickery, not divine miracles and Celsus knew that because he was very familiar with scripture. Care for a shovel?

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

@just_sayin

I read it and understand it for what it says. He spoke in terms of claims being made by the church then went on to refute them. Either you can't read or you're lying, which is it? Satan has the power to deceive (trick) and not to do divine works. According to your fairytale book...

Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:43-45
Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Corinthians 11:13 &14
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Sorcery, trickery, not divine miracles and Celsus knew that because he was very familiar with scripture. Care for a shovel?

You got caught lying.  I'll respond with Origens response to Celsus (Contra Celsum Book II, 48):

Celsus, moreover, unable to resist the miracles which Jesus is recorded to have performed, has already on several occasions spoken of them slanderously as works of sorcery; and we also on several occasions have, to the best of our ability, replied to his statements. And now he represents us as saying that we deemed Jesus to be the Son of God,  because he healed the lame and the blind. And he adds: Moreover, as you assert, he raised the dead. That He healed the lame and the blind, and that therefore we hold Him to be the Christ and the Son of God, is manifest to us from what is contained in the prophecies: Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall hear; then shall the lame man leap as an hart. And that He also raised the dead, and that it is no fiction

Do you know what a lie is? You first said this: You know he said that Jesus performed miracles right? Which is a lie. Even your hero Origens an apologetic with the need to lie says this in the quote you provide...has already on several occasions spoken of them slanderously as works of sorcery; It can not be both an admission of divine attributes  AND a slanderous attack calling the works sorcery. Origen lies and claims Celsus couldn't 'resist the miracles' but Celsus didn't say that like you claim. His detractor said that about him, get it?

Now in my original response to you I did quote the word "trickery" in a remark attributed to Celsus on line:

https://www.google.com/search?q=celsus+on+jesus'+miracles&sca_esv=1dad59e041ee67d9&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ACQVn0_BGLFUVFALnv5xXPKyCzOTb8fQiQ:1714080402117&source=hp&ei=ksoqZqaXBYbGkPIP1vWn-AI&iflsig=ANes7DEAAAAAZirYou4VfCgmNDrPA6s26aNammeafg53&oq=&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgAqAggAMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQIxgnGOoCMgcQLhgnGOoCSOkQUABYAHABeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQHIAQCYAgGgAguoAgqYAwuSBwExoAcA&sclient=gws-wiz

Because as you see that's what the quote reads. No deceptive intent on my part. Yet I provided overwhelming evidence that Celsus did believe jesus to be a practitioner of the magic arts, sorcery, and used deceptive measures of an unknown source to pull off recorded miracles in the gospels. Celsus never acknowledged jesus as a divine miracle worker as you thought because you were tricked; or you just thought you'd get away with that lie? 

After this, through the influence of some motive which is unknown to me, Celsus asserts that it is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of (miraculous) power; hinting, I suppose, at the practices of those who expel evil spirits by incantations. And here he manifestly appears to malign the Gospel. For it is not by incantations that Christians seem to prevail (over evil spirits), but by the name of Jesus, accompanied by the announcement of the narratives which relate to Him; for the repetition of these has frequently been the means of driving demons out of men, especially when those who repeated them did so in a sound and genuinely believing spirit. Such power, indeed, does the name of Jesus possess over evil spirits, that there have been instances where it was effectual, when it was pronounced even by bad men, which Jesus Himself taught (would be the case), when He said: Many shall say to Me in that day, In Your name we have cast out devils, and done many wonderful works. Whether Celsus omitted this from intentional malignity, or from ignorance, I do not know. And he next proceeds to bring a charge against the Saviour Himself, alleging that it was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed; 

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Origen is citing and refuting Celsus.  Origen is defending the Christian faith.  Again, in your attempt to cover up your first false claim you have made yet another false claim.

Correct except that he's not quoting Celsus. He's putting up a strawman like you do. Citations do no always mean quotations. If you could quote Celsus saying your false claim you would. But you can't. Put up or . Quote Celsus attributing the miracles claimed by Christians that Jesus performed them by divine providence. Or run away again I don't care. Prove I made false claims if you can. Demons are deceitful and can't perform divine acts. Dam, you really don't comprehend scripture. LOL the part you embolden supports the truth of my words. Revel in your ignorance. Who said that again? LOL