Incest - Is it moral?

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
And do know that I don't condone child marriage, but @Dee 's accusation are totally bigoted and prejudiced, and not accepting the fact that morality standards of today cannot be projected to 1440 marriage,  unless it is stated in Ancient Arab tribal law that child marriage is against the tribal community law, which it wasn't.
So @Dee is being totally illogical and offensive. 
I want a practical solution, not sophism here.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

Since you claim child marriage is wrong and what he did was immoral, give a moral solution of above scenario.

Abortion would be the moral solution. 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
That is same as killing, and they didn't had method to determine whether it was boy or girl, so why would they abort? they wanted only male child even if they are poor. Because boys were adopted too and they can get money.
Isn't it why they used to bury the newborns, it was form of abortion but after determining the sex, and the child was alive.
that is again not a valid option.

Dee

@kakalam777



***so  what if he was a prophet? 

You don’t expect much from your “prophet “ do you?

***He was human first. 

Yes with a liking for child sex 

***where  did you get the idea that prophet should not follow the customs of society? 

So your contention is Arabic men loved sex with kids as it was a “custom” 

****He didn't used to eat pizza, burger and fast food too? are we suppose to not eat that as well? what logic is that?

What are you babbling about?


***They didn't even have water filtration system, why then did God not inspire him to make scientific advancement to avoid death? Are we suppose to drink unfiltered water too? 

What babble is this?

***  she never had children, what prove do you want from me, read the history
  

Right , yet you said he consummated the marriage now he didn’t?

**so according to you incest with your own daughter is not child rape

Where did i state those exact words?

***but with legal wife who is of puberty and having a sexual urge is? Sex is expression of love and when wife is having sexual urges it is duty of husband to satisfy her?

Duty?

 ****Should a husband tell her to go masturbate in another room?

Well she could do it in front of him if she wanted 

****Further,  Did she ever complained, even after his death?

Did you know Muhammad struck her and she complained? No of course you didn’t read your Hadiths?

 ***did you read her biography what she said about her husband? when the socially accept legal wife is not complaining about physical or metal abuse about her husband on what basis you are? 

Yes I’ve read several and they all differ , did you read about Muhammad fetish for “sporting with young girls” no?

****Get me a statement from Aisha that said  she was sexually abused? 

Right , so Aisha in the culture where they buried kids alive for being poor is going to complain about her abuser ....Oooookay 

***if you can do that I will accept that child marriage of 1440 years is immoral. And if you can't and you never will, then you can just instead of getting in between a relationship of husband and wife. 

A “relationship “ between a 53 year old and an eight year old , wonder if thec8 year old looked at Muhammad with lust , you don’t seem to be aware Aisha was still playing with dolls when she was with Muhammad ,read your Hadiths son ......What? You don’t know what they are?

kakalam777

@Dee ;

Nothing wrong with incest if both agree to it? Why’s it wrong?

so why is it wrong when a wife agrees to having sex with husband? They had 3 years together to love each other without having sex? Can you provide me evidence that she was abused and it wasn't a sex with consent. I don't see Aisha saying that she disagreed with having sex with him in her biography. Do quote it if you ever have read it.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

Ok, you were specifically referring to the days of old, thought you were talking about present day...

Well, they didn't know better, they were immoral but if it was legal at the time to bury a living female child then it was... I fail to see how it relates to the present day though... 

kakalam777

@Dee ;

A “relationship “ between a 53 year old and an eight year old , wonder if thec8 year old looked at Muhammad with lust , you don’t seem to be aware Aisha was still playing with dolls when she was with Muhammad ,read your Hadiths son ......What? You don’t know what they are?

Are you suppose to say this same thing when a grand father is having sex with her grand daughter? You condone incest and bestiality buddy.

A legal wife with social  status and property having sex with her husband when she gets sexual urges is nothing wrong.

You are clearly being bigoted here, well I wouldn't expect anything less from a person following subjective morality.

I don't need to read hadith I read her biography, and did he ever had sex when she was playing with dolls? NO...He did it when she started having sexual urges at age of 9. 

kakalam777

Right , so Aisha in the culture where they buried kids alive for being poor is going to complain about her abuser ....Oooookay 

You don't know anything do you? Only saying rubbish from google.

Aisha was born in Islamic era where burying was stopped and people didn't know what to do with their daughters.
You see why I keep saying you are bigoted and prejudiced now?

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
Obviously not why would I refer it to now, I don't mix morality of 1400s to today like @Dee does.
There are adoption, and donation option, I would rather prefer people will do that, so that girls can educate and mature before marriage.
I keep saying I don't condone child marriage, but it is not immoral for 1440 years old to do so. And this @Dee is mixing the morality of two different era like a immature kid he/she is.

Dee

@kakalam777

***you suppose to say this same thing when a grand father is having sex with her grand daughter?

Where did I state those words ?

 ****You condone incest and bestiality buddy.

Where did I say I support bestiality you ?

****A legal wife with social  status and property having sex with her husband when she gets sexual urges is nothing wrong.

A 9 year old lusting for a 53 year old???? That’s Muslims for you 

***/You are clearly being bigoted here, well I wouldn't expect anything less from a person following subjective morality

I’m not I’m being truthful you support peadophillia , that’s your objective moralit6 

**/I don't need to read hadith I read her biography, and did he ever had sex when she was playing with dolls?

Ask Mo ....possibly 

**** NO...He did it when she started having sexual urges at age of 9. 

Right she fantasied as a 9 year old about having sex with a 53 year old peado , that’s Muslims for you 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen

I fail to see how it relates to the present day though... 

Because it is still valid, if the already born female is under mortality threat, due to parent's poverty and they don't find alternative options. That is why the whole Islamic morality compass came into discussion, because killing, giving for slavery and brothel of already born daughter is not allowed. And People in Vietnam, and other such places give their daughters for slavery or brothels even now. And there are many tribes that still marry child girls in south Asia. And I was arguing Dee that marriage is better than brothels and slavery IF and ONLY if they don't have options where people willingly take for adoption or get donations.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

It is still immoral to force an under aged girl to marry... It was in so in 800CE, in 1400CE and still is immoral today... Whether it's slightly better than to be sold into slavery is irrelevant, it is still immoral... Saying it is better is evading the overall societal problem regarding the value of female human beings in said society...

Slavery was always immoral, the fact that it was legal back then doesn't change a thing, it was, is and will stay immoral to own, trade or sell human beings as property... Same goes for forced marriage of under age girls, making it legal doesn't change the immorality of it, never had and never will... It's just a clumsy way to justify immoral actions.

kakalam777

Where did I state those words ? Where did I say I support bestiality you ?

supporting one is supporting all, you support subjective morality and according to it it is morally right and even legal to have sex with beast....so in a way you do support it... is there something so wonderful in this world where you can pick one part of law and reject other? And I already told you I support morality that is both objective and subjective but linked to actions "harm".

I’m not I’m being truthful you support peadophillia....

Paedophilia didn't exist in ancient ages, it was always socially accepted marriages, slaves or brothels.  Its a recent trend where you abduct and rape kids... so again your accusations are irrelevant and illogical.

A 9 year old lusting for a 53 year old????

Oh you think a girl can't fall in love with old people? I can personally introduce 6-7 years old who like old men in park and they go and sit in their laps.  Do you think there is only pedophilia and not Gerontophilia ?

You are saying I support pedophila? No I don't support any form of -philias. I only support marriage by contract, I don't support love marriage either, because once love is gone then its bye bye. Didn't you realise from all my conversations, I am realist, who don't take feelings and desires into much considerations? 

AmericanFurryBoy

@kakalam777
The options you gave were immoral, putting them in brothels, making them slaves, etc. if they had rights, they could’ve held a job and paid for themselves

AmericanFurryBoy

1. Make them slaves and give slave status, the are free for sex obviously.

   I’m sorry, what? That’s not okay

2. Make them wives, and give them wife status and you have inheritance and property for wife and if divorce you get alimony. And marrying in early puberty was normal due to high mortality rates.

   That’s a little more ok, but still not quite right

3. Put them in brothels and again for pleasure

   That’s really just not right, putting them in a brothel against their will

4. Bury them back alive again. which was already a normal practice

   NO!

5. Human trafficking to other places to sold as slaves or pleasure

   Already been covered

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
immoral according to who? 
Is death by starving your child moral? moral according to who?
I don't see any societal harm in marrying a child who is about to die for her survival in some remote corner of the world? is your morality standards reaching her and feeding her? NO. Life is more important than some abstract morality or opinions of strangers who are not even helping in elevating the problems of a family. Further, opinions of strangers in tribal customs don't matter, so again your morality becomes impractical to stop child marriages. I have personally seen people asking a hippies tribe about child marriage, and they say its their custom and they don't allow national or state laws to interfere in their customs. So again your morality standards become useless. Plus you said 800 CE and 1400CE  there was no child marriage? but history says otherwise, so what happened to immorality then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides

As for slavery I agree.

kakalam777

@AmericanFurryBoy
I wasn't giving you options, I was stating real life situation that was present in 600CE Arabia, do you think I was doing a hypothetical multiple choice questions here? This was reality of Arab tribe, Whether moral or immoral that was their customs.
And yes marriage is OK as a LAST resort if there is no alternative. That is why I said it was not immoral for child marriage 1400 years ago in that scenario Amoral maybe, but definitely not immoral. 

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

According to any moral person... Making it legal doesn't change that... Going by your "harm" principle, sure it maybe less harmful than outright killing them, but it's is still demonstrably harmful for the girl herself and to society at large... 

Dee

@kakalam777

*** supporting one is supporting all,

Really? That’s another typically idiotic comment from you 

 ***you support subjective morality and according to it it is morally right and even legal to have sex with beast

Its not my thing and no I don’t agree with bestiality you because the beast in question is not consenting 

****in a way you do support it...

I still don’t , yet you spent 25 posted defending a peadophile how amusing 

***is there something so wonderful in this world where you can pick one part of law and reject other?

Yes I reject the Muslim part that supports child rape .....strange I know 



**** And I already told you I support morality that is both objective and subjective but linked to actions "harm".

Yes , I know you think no harm if a 53 year old man abuses an 8 year old you keep saying it 

I’m not I’m being truthful you support peadophillia...


didn't exist in ancient ages, it was always socially accepted marriages, slaves or brothels.  Its a recent trend where you abduct and rape kids... so again your accusations are irrelevant and illogical.

A 9 year old lusting for a 53 year old????

***/Oh you think a girl can't fall in love with old people? 

I don’t know any 8 year olds here who fall in love with 53 year old you sick dog 

**** I can personally introduce 6-7 years old who like old men in park and they go and sit in their laps.

You personally know you sick f—k and you don’t tell their parents? Oh wait don’t tell me you’re talking about yourself are you?

 ***Do you think there is only pedophilia and not Gerontophilia ?

No , I  sure you’re more than familiar with them all,

**/You are saying I support pedophila? No I don't support any form of -philias. 

Yet you support the peado “prophet” 

***I only support marriage by contract, I don't support love marriage either, because once love is gone then its bye bye.

So you support child marriage.....I know you keep saying 

***g Didn't you realise from all my conversations, I am realist, who don't take feelings and desires into much considerations? 

I know which is why you support child abuse

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
Agreed, isn't this why I said it is not recommended but ONLY as a last resort option.
If parents can support, education is priority for any family, till girl reaches legal mature age.This is unanimous in my community.
Because if a person impregnates an underage, the body will be damaged and it is again "harm" to a person's life and body.
Which is again not allowed.

kakalam777

@Dee
You know what I am kind of getting numb to your rants now. 
So I won't even bother about your vulgar offensives. 
If you can provide me with proves and real life situations that is beneficial to society, I will agree with you, but if all you doing is being stuck in past projecting 1440 yr old dead husband and wife, as a means to justify your self being right, then you are just being illogical and .
Let me ask you explicitly, where you abused as a child? or was someone you know was?
I am talking real like situations here involving life and death here, not being a psychiatrist and treating your traumas by justifying child abuse is alright.  

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

That "last resort" option is still harmful and immoral, this fact doesn't change because it's legal. Societies where child marriage is legal are regressive, backward and morally bankrupt, shackled by their idiotic traditions...

Dee

@kakalam777

***If you can provide me with proves and real life situations that is beneficial to society, I will agree with you, but if all you doing is being stuck in past projecting 1440 yr old dead husband and wife, as a means to justify your self being right, then you are just being illogical and .

Listen you you claimed Muslims only took child brides from impoverished families Aisha was from a wealthy family the marriage was agreed on as Muhammad liked kiddies didn’t he? 

Your contention is peadophillia was the norm in the Arab world back then I totally agree , which is why it’s still acceptable today 


****Let me ask you explicitly, where you abused as a child? or was someone you know was?

No I wasn’t , thankfully I’m not an 8 year old girl in a Muslim country 

*** I am talking real like situations here involving life and death here, not being a psychiatrist and treating your traumas by justifying child abuse is alright.  

But yet you’ve spent 32 posts defending it 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
I am talking about backward societies only, and that is where education and donations are mostly needed, and that is the way to eradicate the backward customs. 
Do you think cases of poverty so much where a child is dying occurs in financially stable houses? obviously no, and they are not even allowed to do such a thing.

Plaffelvohfen

@kakalam777

There is no denying that it currently still exists, but making it legal in those countries is just sweeping the problem under the rug instead of addressing it properly. And it doesn't change the fact that it is immoral anyway (which is the topic btw). 

Dee

@kakalam777

**** Do you think cases of poverty so much where a child is dying occurs in financially stable houses? 

Yet your solution to such is to sell your child into sex slavery , the hypocrisy of Muslims is staggering they support sexual slavery yet frown on homosexuality.....BTW Aisha was from a well off family so your excuse is still what , that Muslims back then favoured child sex? 

kakalam777

Listen you you claimed Muslims only took child brides from impoverished families Aisha was from a wealthy family the marriage was agreed on as Muhammad liked kiddies didn’t he? 

Ok, here is the thing, what Islamic prophet did was example for his time. 
Instead of burying, selling as slave or to brothels, it is better to marry them early, that was for that time. And NO sex till puberty. This is explicit from his actions of waiting 3 years and no impregnation, since that is harmful for young girls. If it was someone else they would just go and bang on wedding night, why do you think he waited 3 years? Is this a characteristic of a paedophile? It is to show others that you don't just marry children for having sex with them, instead it is to support their living, till they reaches sexual maturity. 
As for who he marries that is his prerogative. And he preferred his best friend to be his in-law.  Did he marry 5-6 young girls? If he was pedo he could do that couldn't he he was ruler of community, he had every right to marry however many he can, but he stopped at 1. Yet you still accuse him.

The same ruling applies if an unfortunate situation happens and a girl child had to get marry early. That is all I am saying, I am not saying everyone should go and and proceed with child marriage left and right. For example, father died, mother can't work and feed her daughters and she has few of them, etc etc....these are all real life situations and each case have different solution. 
I have said this before and saying it again, Islamic marriage is not like western marriage, marriage in Islam is a contract, where both male and female side can put conditions in it, and if its a bride's father/mother marrying a child due to financial reasons, they can stipulate the term a guy can't have sex with their daughter and request education and other things before marriage in contract.

Because you don't know the details like I do, you think everything is easy and immoral, there are lots of strings attached to marriage, there is bridal gift/dowry [in form of money] for the girl provided by groom, alimony if divorce occurs, these are all decided in marriage contract before marriage takes place. And after marriage the yearly charity for female is supposed to be done by husband, and this can be given to wife's parents to elevate financial burden. 

Your contention is peadophillia was the norm in the Arab world back then I totally agree , which is why it’s still acceptable today 

It is NOT acceptable, It becomes special case scenario where girl is becoming financial burden and under a mortal danger due to hunger in some remote place. But if its in a city in today's society, community can interfere and object and provide financial support and file for divorce on girl's behalf and provide working condition to the family if made publicly aware. It is not that hard...education first, wait for legal state age and then marry. This is current consensus. Because there is no "harm" involved in doing so.

kakalam777

@Dee

Yet your solution to such is to sell your child into sex slavery , the hypocrisy of Muslims is staggering they support sexual slavery yet frown on homosexuality.....BTW Aisha was from a well off family so your excuse is still what , that Muslims back then favoured child sex? 

Since you follow subjective [customs or group or herd] morality standards your view is narrow and impractical to real life problems.

Marriage is not sex slavery, it comes with status, education and inheritance and many legal rights. As for homosexuality, it has same ruling as adultery and fornication. And all these three causes social, and communal harm, fornication can result in unexpected pregnancy, if be careless and other medical issues if not careful, adultery can harm and break families, and homosexuality can cause confusing in sexuality in social demographics. How is it helpful in social progression if there is lack of male:female ratios in demographics?
Even your mentor Richard Dawkins says if a person who is already a homosexual, has a child  and he raised him with his same sex partner then there is high chance the child will be numb to romance about same sex and have a high chance to activate his homosexual genes [if they exist]. And if both of his "parents" are touchy feely with him then he too might not mind the same from other guys. Meaning environment influences desires. Hence desires or subjective morality is a useless measure to morality, since it can change on other part of the globe, and lack practicality.
Since you guys condone incest obviously you wouldn't mind. Like I said subjective  morality is a sorry excuse to fulfil selfish desires. 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen

There is no denying that it currently still exists, but making it legal in those countries is just sweeping the problem under the rug instead of addressing it properly. And it doesn't change the fact that it is immoral anyway (which is the topic btw). 

And how is you making it immoral helping in anyway? And it is not legal, but special case based on real life situation and necessity to maintain ones life under the clause of "right to live".

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen
By the way on the topic of morality I wanted to ask you,
Who gave people right to decide what is moral and what is immoral? Do they have authority of some kind? A certification saying they can decide what is moral and what is immoral.

Just curious.

ZeusAres42

Plaffelvohfen said:

@kakalam777

Stoning is harmful, cutting hands as a punishment for theft is harmful, forcing women to live in cloth bags is harmful, and the list goes on and on... The only religion that is actually based on not doing harm is Jainism.

I think Buddhism is also similar actually to Jainism in their desire to do no harm. With that being said, no one needs religion to follow in order to do no harm to others when a great many of us already have this in our biology; it's called empathy!

Plaffelvohfen

kakalam777 said:

@Plaffelvohfen
By the way on the topic of morality I wanted to ask you,
Who gave people right to decide what is moral and what is immoral? Do they have authority of some kind? A certification saying they can decide what is moral and what is immoral.

Just curious.

Who?? No one... There is no "right" to pass moral judgment, it's something we all do by virtue of being human...

Moral authority has been defined as the "fundamental assumptions that guide our perceptions of the world", you are thus necessarily the source of authority for your own morality, we all are... 

MayCaesar

Morality is relative and ever changing. There is a couple I know personally: a woman from Vietnam, and a man from the US of Latin-American descent. A few centuries ago such a relationship would be considered absolutely outrageous, and likely punishable in all "civilised" countries. Nowadays no one bats an eye when people of different ethnicities come together.
I personally absolutely prefer Asian women, especially women from such countries as China, Korea and Japan. I find their looks irresistible, their accents adorable, their cultural manners cute, and their general outlook on life refreshing. At the same time, I am a White guy from Eastern Europe living in the US. Such a thing would be an oddity at best, and a deviation at worst, just in the year 1600, yet today no one bats an eye. Norms change.

Today incest is mostly viewed as unacceptable, but chances are in 100-200 years it will be just as common as White-Asian couples are. 

The relevant question in the general perspective then is not whether incest is "moral", but whether it is something that harms people. Are there objective health risks incest pose, big enough to discourage it? If the answer is yes, then there is something to talk about. And if the answer is no, then it really is no one's business whether a given individual partakes in it or not.

Dee

*****Since you follow subjective [customs or group or herd] morality standards

Yet you said subjective morality is basically each individual doing as they wish which is the opposite of herd morality. 1: 9 billion Muslims though do follow herd morality 


******your view is narrow and impractical to real life problems.

How is my view "narrow " when I don't believe in punishing apostasy or blasphemy which is a good example of narrow mindedness?

****Marriage is not sex slavery,

Selling a daughter because you're poor is sex slavery , what term do you put on it?

****it comes with status, education and inheritance and many legal rights.

How refreshing that sex slaves have "rights " in the Muslim world

*****As for homosexuality, it has same ruling as adultery and fornication.

What is wrong with either?

 ***And all these three causes social, and communal harm, fornication can result in unexpected pregnancy, if be careless and other medical issues if not careful,

So what? Ban car driving then as it comes with risks

****adultery can harm and break families,

It can also improve and enhance families 

*****and homosexuality can cause confusing in sexuality in social demographics.

Explain way you mean

*****How is it helpful in social progression if there is lack of male:female ratios in demographics?

How do you define "social progression"? So far you've mentioned nothing but regressive policies 

****Even your mentor Richard Dawkins

Another statement , how is Dawkins my mentor?

Why would I care what Dawkins said on the matter?

****says if a person who is already a homosexual, has a child  and he raised him with his same sex partner then there is high chance the child will be numb to romance about same sex

Supply the quote where Dawkins said this?

Maybe also send him an email as it's his argument not mine and I bet he never said it


******and have a high chance to activate his homosexual genes [if they exist].

Dawkins never said that why are you lying?

Post up the quote bet you cannot


*****And if both of his "parents" are touchy feely with him then he too might not mind the same from other guys.

Thats nonsense , and just your opinion how do you come about it?

****Meaning environment influences desires. Hence desires or subjective morality is a useless measure to morality, since it can change on other part of the globe, and lack practicality.

But all morality is subjective which is why it changes and evolves as humanity and societies do , slavery was once commonplace what changed that? 


*****Since you guys condone incest obviously you wouldn't mind.

Where is the wrong in consensual incest do explain?

*****Like I said subjective  morality is a sorry excuse to fulfil selfish desires. 

In the U S in the 60's blacks suffered segregation the good people of the U S came to a conclusion over time this was wrong beacause people like the great Martin Luther King and others made powerful argumentation as to the immorality of it , so do tell how did the realisation of racial segregation as being wrong fullfill a "selfish" desire?

Remember your appeal to an objective morality has you justifying why sex slavery is right exactly the way Christians used the bible to justify it also 

kakalam777

@Plaffelvohfen ;
Morality true purpose is that it requires people to sacrifice their own short-term interests for the benefit of society. And subjective morality lack such aspect and even objective morality sometimes.

kakalam777

@Dee ;

Yet you said subjective morality is basically each individual doing as they wish which is the opposite of herd morality. 1: 9 billion Muslims though do follow herd morality 

Sorry I don't follow herd, I follow certified record. And a  practical morality standard.

kakalam777

Post up the quote bet you cannot

watch his video on homosexuality and evolution....he basically said "environmental factors have high chance to govern the preference". And it took 20min to get that conclusion....and I never said being homosexual is wrong...I said it has adverse affect on social demographics in long run and disadvantageous for social progression. Do you even know what that means?

Remember your appeal to an objective morality has you justifying why sex slavery is right exactly the way Christians used the bible to justify it also 

I don't appeal to objective morality, I appeal to morality linked to "harm", which can be both objective and subjective.

kakalam777

@Dee

****adultery can harm and break families,
It can also improve and enhance families 

Oh it can enhance, I see, so you are okay with your husband or wife going and having sex behind your back...okaaayy...very enhancing.

kakalam777

Where is the wrong in consensual incest do explain?

then where is the wrong in consensual child marriage? They both same, you are having sex with someone your child's or grand child's age. How do you know sex in marriage is not consensual, when the person is sexually reached puberty? And I am sure you know what puberty means....mean they have sexual desires now.

The thing is what you prefer was not socially accepted and what you reject was and is still socially accepted in many tribes. 

And I don't prefer either.

Dee

@kakalam777

****Sorry we don't follow herd, we follow certified record. And a  practical morality standard

So your behaviour does not conform to those of other muslims? 

herd mentality

noun

noun: herd mentality; plural noun: herd mentalities

1. the tendency for people's behaviour or beliefs to conform to those of the group to which they belong.

You follow precisely the dictionary definition of herd mentality 

Practical “morality “ as in approving of sex slavery ......ehhh oooookay 

Dee

@kakalam777

***watch his video on homosexualty and evolution....he basically said "environmental factors have high chance to govern the preference". 

You claimed Dawkins said .... Richard Dawkins says if a person who is already a homosexual, has a child  and he raised him with his same sex partner then there is high chance the child will be numb to romance about same sex and have a high chance to activate his homosexual genes 

Demonstrate where he mentioned “homosexual genes “? Where is the link to the video where he made the quotes you claim 

***And it took 20min to get that conclusion....and I never said being homosexual is wrong...

Post up the video 

Right , so you agree Islamic teachings on such are immoral?

***I said it has adverse affect on social demographics in long run and disadvantageous for social progression. 

I asked you to prove that statement you cannot?

****Do you even know what that means?

I do , you obviously don’t 

***I don't appeal to objective morality, I appeal to morality linked to "harm", which can be both objective and subjective.

How is it objective? Give examples if you can?

So you agree there’s nothing wrong with subjective morality?

Every previous point you made you now disagree with .....interesting 

Dee

@kakalam777

***Oh it can enhance, I see, so you are okay with your husband or wife going and having sex behind your back...okaaayy...very enhancing.

Where did I say that in those words, bet you cannot show me ....again?

kakalam777

So your behaviour does not conform to those of other muslims? 

pick any Muslim or 10 and ask him if he knows the core principle of Islamic morality compass, they won't be able to answer you, In-fact 90% won't be able to answer, because they don't read their own theology, and jurisprudence. They too follow cultural grouping.

In Islamic jurisprudence, it is obligatory for men to pay dowry, but in south Asia - non Muslims women pay dowry and Muslim follow same culture, the bride pays more dowry compared to husband. So basically they don't know anything about the original Islamic jurisprudence and they are unwilling to listen since its cultural norm. Only people who study knows.

And I know that its core principle is neither objective nor subjective morality but is linked with harm.

Meaning any action that is causing, physical or severe emotional harm comes under immoral category. That include, incest, forced sex, child abuse, devoid of education, beating husband/wife, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, excessive materialism, alcohol, gambling, interest... these might be okay if you take objective or subjective morality but if it is linked to action harm....none of them falls under moral standards because they have damages from personal harm all the way to familial, social, communal and national harm, statistically in the long run. You are free to test it.

Knowledge is power, and current Muslim community lacks that.

And since Islamic prophet was the one who conferred with such a morality standard by Quran, it is impossible for him to abuse child, because by doing so he is breaking the moral code of Quran itself...Which westerners and Muslims themselves don't understand, only few scholars know, and even if they say, people will act deaf eared like you people are doing in this thread. Instead of understanding you are bringing this and that as your supplementary evidence, which is irrelevant. 

Dee

@kakalam777

***then where is the wrong in consensual child marriage? 

I know you proudly claimed that you know of 7 and 8 year olds in your Muslim society who desire older men and sit on their knees in public parks and this is accepted by followers of Islam. Over here kids of that age play with dolls exactly the way Aisha did before Muhammad abused her.

Do you honestly think kids daily concern is sexual desire for older men? It seems to be a Muslim thing 

***They both same, you are having sex with someone your child's or grand child's age

I don’t agree with child sex as I keep saying children do not consent to sex except in your Muslim societies it seems 

. ****How do you know sex in marriage is not consensual, when the person is sexually reached puberty? 

Is a 7 ,8 year old ready to consent .....wait you’ve answered that 

****And I am sure you know what puberty means....mean they have sexual desires now.

Yes I know you keep saying you and your buddies know of 7,8 year old girls who desire you’s , that’s called a peadophile ring in civilized societies 

****The thing is what you prefer was not socially accepted and what you reject was and is still socially accepted in many tribes. 

And I don't prefer either.

I know , yet you claim to know kids that want sex with you ......

kakalam777

I know you proudly claimed that you know of 7 and 8 year olds in your Muslim society who desire older men and sit on their knees in public parks and this is accepted by followers of Islam. Over here kids of that age play with dolls exactly the way Aisha did before Muhammad abused her.

Have I every said they are Muslim? they are not...lol

I don’t agree with child sex as I keep saying children do not consent to sex except in your Muslim societies it seems 

again irrelevant, pubertal children only think of sex, the get horny at least 3-4 times a day, more if they view graphic images, I was pubertal when 11 and I know.

Is a 7 ,8 year old ready to consent .....wait you’ve answered that 

Why are you decreasing 1 year? its 9 year with 3 years of fostering love. It takes few minutes to fall in love and you are saying 3 years is too short?

Yes I know you keep saying you and your buddies know of 7,8 year old girls who desire you’s , that’s called a peadophile ring in civilized societies 

Again irrelevant, I was never taking  civilised society when discussing child marriage, you are again being prejudiced towards poverty stricken people in a round about way. Why are you so apathetic to poor folks who are in crises of starvation? 

kakalam777

@Dee ;
You said adultery can improve and enhance families...that basically means you allow your husband/wife to go have sex with other people....that is the definition of adultery and it is legally not a criminal offence. 

so can you provide me testable evidence for its "improve and enhance qualities" for families?

Dee

@kakalam777

****Have I every said they are Muslim? they are not...lol

You will have no trouble then naming these countries where you claimed you’ve seen this and it was a norm, so which countries are they or are you just making it up ....again?

****again irrelevant, pubertal children only think of sex, the get horny at least 3-4 times a day, more if they view graphic images, I was pubertal when 11 and I know.

Really? 7, 8 9 year olds , have you a study backing this up?

***/Why are you decreasing 1 year? its 9 year with 3 years of fostering love. It takes few minutes to fall in love and you are saying 3 years is too short?

Incorrect , Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consummated unless Muslim sacred books are lying are they ....Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated.

***/Again irrelevant, I was never taking  civilised society when discussing child marriage,

Right so which societies are you talking about as you keep avoiding naming them why’s that? 

***you are again being prejudiced towards poverty stricken people in a round about way. 

Right , so my concern about children being sexually abused is “prejudiced” how  so?

You just said they were uncivilized what makes them so? You keep disagreeing with your own it’s hilarious to watch 

****Why are you so apathetic to poor folks who are in crises of starvation? 

You mean why am I so unfair to families who sell their kids into sex slavery? 

I know my subjective moral compass is dreadful isn’t it?

kakalam777

You mean why am I so unfair to families who sell their kids into sex slavery? 

No I mean why you are so unfair to someone dying? and again your labelling is wrong, sex slavery is distinct category and so is plain slavery and so is prostitution. Marriage is entirely different, it mean male and female has equal rights.
You are not very bright with nuances in different statuses I see. 

Right so which societies are you talking about as you keep avoiding naming them why’s that? 

Tribal societies of Bangladesh, India, Vietnam, Pakistan, and Thailand irrespective of religion. You don't travel much do you? That is why your world wide view is limited to your own community, which is pathetic and you claim you are moral when you don't care about other people in other parts of he world.

incorrect , Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consummated unless Muslim sacred books are lying are they ....Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated.

you keep saying 8 years  age  in every post before, now you are correcting me it is 9 when I asked you why you are decreasing the age of consummation? Pot calling kettle black?

ME ****again irrelevant, pubertal children only think of sex, the get horny at least 3-4 times a day, more if they view graphic images, I was pubertal when 11 and I know.
YOU: really? 7, 8 9 year olds , have you a study backing this up?

I said 11 and you saying 7,8, 9? do you have problem understanding numbers? I am talking about  sexual urge of myself not others, any yes I can say puberty depends on environmental factors, read paper by Marisa M. Fisher and Erica A. Eugster.

kakalam777

@MayCaesar

Morality is relative and ever changing.

That is not morality that is sociology of what we think and practice what is right and wrong. Morality should be true right and wrong, to have a standard that can define if we are progressing as society or not. And Inter racial marriage was never wrong from moral perspective that is again the sociology or cultural/group influence.
For example cannibalism is moral in remote islands disconnected from civilisations, but it does not make it inherently right, hence immoral.
Another example, few decades ago sentinellies from Islands near India used to kill everyone close to them thinking them as enemies, but now they are more approachable. The sociology of what they think and practice has changed not morality that you can't kill your enemies.
There are many examples here https://www.speakingtree.in/allslides/sex-rituals-from-around-the-world
which are all moral to do, But any person who loves their wife wouldn't want to share her, and any women who loves her husband doesn't want her husband to go to another wife, so is it moral to do so forcefully because the sociology of that tribe think its alright? The question is "Is subjective morality alone with cultural norm right standard to measure morality or not?"

So morality itself that is every changing is flawed if it doesn't have any standard to compare it with to check if its progressive or digressive to society. Similarly morality which is objective and too rigid and aligned with the true morality is also flawed as it never socially progresses. 

Dee

@kakalam777

***No I mean why you are so unfair to someone dying? 

Ahhh , they’re dying now so selling their child is necessary , why if they’re dying are they selling their kid  you dummy?

****and again your labelling is wrong, 

Selling your child for sex is sex slavery you dummy 

***sex slavery is distinct category and so is plain slavery and so is prostitution. Marriage is entirely different, it mean male and female has equal rights.

But you admitted selling your child wax fine once you’re a Muslim do you know what slavery even means you dummy?

****You are not very bright with nuances in different statuses I see. 

Yet I’m the one knows the difference what  a peadophile is , you actually admire them .....nuances in status ....Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

***/Tribal societies of Bangladesh, India, Vietnam, Pakistan, and Thailand irrespective of religion. You don't travel much do you? 

Yet Pakistan and Bangladesh are Muslim where child brides are a norm , also where is your evidence that kids in the other countries of their own free will look for older male lovers? Bet you have none as usual 

***/That is why your world wide view is limited to your own community, which is pathetic and you claim you are moral when you don't care about other people in other parts of he world.

Yet I’ve been all around the world and if I don’t care how come you’re the one openly supporting peadophillia and I’m against?

**** you keep saying 8 years  age  in every post before, now you are correcting me it is 9 

Actually she was given to Muhammad when she was 6 the 53 year old peadophile consummated the marriage when she was 8 or 9 

***when I asked you why you are decreasing the age of consummation? Pot calling kettle black?

What are you on about you dummy?

****I said 11 and you saying 7,8, 9? do you have problem understanding numbers? I am talking about  sexual urge of myself not others, any yes I can say puberty depends on environmental factors, read paper by Marisa M. Fisher and Erica A. Eugster.

But we are not talking about you or your lust for children as you did claim you know 7/8 year olds who desire you and older men , also your link not surprisingly doesn’t work