How should Israel respond to the attacks by Gaza?

Bogan

The first thing to do is for Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity and water.     Then, bomb the crap out of Gaza and make it uninhabitable.    Next, take a third  of Gaza and ethnically cleanse it of Israel's enemies by driving them into that part of Gaza that Israel will allow to survive.      Then, populate that captured part of Gaza entirely with Israelis, and put up another wall between the new part of Gaza which will now be part of Israel, and the rest of the uninhabitable part of Gaza that HAMAS and Hezbollah can have if they want it.

When the "Palestinians" say that they will kill their Israeli hostages if their demands are not met, tell them that for every Israeli captive they murder, 5 captured and incarcerated  "Palestinian" terrorists will be executed.

When one side insists on playing dirty, then the other side is under no obligation to play clean.

anarchist100

I don't care if Israel decides to overthrow Hamas, I don't care one way or the other when it comes to this conflict, but if I'm going to side with Israel then I'll say that's what they should do, but they should do it in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering for the people of the Gaza, end the Hamas organization and major attacks will cease, sure the Palestinians will be angry, and they'll strike out at the Israel, but not in a way that would warrant removing them from their homeland, or much worse, bombing them. I know that certain other mental juveniles are angry and therefor are advocating for unnecessary violence, however they will easily be proven irrational and ought to be ignored. Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality. So in all likelyhood they'll do something foolish and Iran will get involved and everyone else will end up having their cities blown up.

anarchist100

When one side insists on playing dirty, then the other side is under no obligation to play clean.

Civilized men do not become savages just because their enemies do, civilized men act in a way that achieves their goal practically, they don't cause unnecessary trouble for themselves and others out of anger like a wild beast. Anger is for animals and children.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;When one side insists on playing dirty, then the other side is under no obligation to play clean.

Well they have been doing that tite for tart stuff ever since time immoral. And when you analize it in the end all there doing is trying to prove who has the best imaginary friend. Its total craziness elevated to totally new levels of dumicity. So the Yids cut off the power and water to stop Hamas but oh woop dee do so do all the poor innocent Palestinians go without power and water. So of coarse Israel is just inventing a reason to harm innocent people who they hate the guts of any way.

Ampersand

Cue all the partisans rabidly advocating for war crimes against Palestinians without considering that:

a) War crimes are just as illegal and abhorrent if the other side does it first.

b) Israel has been committing war crimes against Palestinians for decades so by the logic of “Argh, they did a war crime first so OUR war crimes are justified” therefore by their logic Hamas isn’t doing anything wrong.

I feel any honest, moral and legally valid assessment of the situations should be:

- Disproprtionate or focused killing or harm to civilians is abhorrent and a war crime.

- Israel is justified in using force to stop this attack as a short term goal.

- Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian Territories is itself both a war crime and regularly brings about exactly the same kind of horror to Palestinians that in the last few days we have seen inflicted on Israelis.

- As a long term solution to this conflict, the very issue which is causing these atrocities on both sides needs to end and Israel must cease its occupation.

- There is little appetite in Israel for making such change and the government is openly racist and apartheid, so as citizens of presumably democratic nations we should do what we can to convince our leaders to come to an peaceful solution based around the principles enshrined in international law: (Return to 1967 borders with land swaps, limited right of return, Al-Aqua being kept primarily as a mosque but with a commitment to be open, welcoming and as interfaith as possible)

Dee

How should Israel respond to the attacks by Gaza?

I think you mean how should Palestine defend against terrorism from Israel , an eye for an eye that's how.

No wonder the OP sounds just like @Dreamer another typical hate filled bigot

jack

@MineSubCraftStarved

Hello:

I'm a Jew.  I hate Hamas.  I also hate what the state of Israel has become.

excon

Bogan

@anarchist100 ;   Civilized men do not become savages just because their enemies do, civilized men act in a way that achieves their goal practically, they don't cause unnecessary trouble for themselves and others out of anger like a wild beast. Anger is for animals and children.

Do you think that "civilised" men should slaughter and butcher their enemies in a civilised way?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Bogan

When one side insists on playing dirty, then the other side is under no obligation to play clean.

Agreed, Israel shouldn't be pulling its punches anymore, this isn't just some border skirmish like in 2009, 2014, and 2021. This is a full-scale war, with casualties numbering ten times that of 9/11 in proportion to Israel's size.

The Jewish state shouldn't be doing half-measures, but it also shouldn't commit massacres and other atrocities. At the same time though I also don't think it should be imposing restrictive measures like roof-bombing to save civilian lives at the cost of the destruction of vital terrorist enclaves.
I think Israel definitely needs to send a message about defeating Gaza to the wider Arab and Muslim world that it can't be pushed around. So I think carpet-bombing parts of Gaza isn't out of the question.

MineSubCraftStarved

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality.

F*ck off.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Ampersand

War crimes are just as illegal and abhorrent if the other side does it first.

It's still wrong, but a lot more understandable.
I don't think anyone in Israel is seriously considering genocide or mass killings of civilians besides a few radicals. With that in mind, if some Israeli soldiers go berserk and start shooting children down in some street, that isn't indicative of Israeli policy. But of some isolated decisions by some mental soldiers. Which is something that many people get mixed up on when prancing on about Israeli war crimes.
When Russian troops entered German territory during the second world war, they committed their own share of rapings, massacres, killings, and other atrocities. While these were bad, they were far less reprehensible than that of the Germans, because they were in response to German killings.
If someone shoots your dog, it's still illegal to shoot that person's dog, but it's a hell of a lot less abhorrent. Precisely because it is driven by vengeance or retaliation, not pure malice.

Israel has been committing war crimes against Palestinians for decades so by the logic of “Argh, they did a war crime first so OUR war crimes are justified” Therefore by their logic, Hamas isn’t doing anything wrong.

Israel hasn't been committing virtually any war crimes against Palestinians, and none of its policies and training practices support this assumption. One of the key principles within the IDF is "purity of arms," which directly states that a key ethic within the Israeli army is not to harm targets outside of your operation objectives(IE, civilians). If Israel has been committing war crimes against Palestinians regularly for decades, why would this be one of their main principles? Furthermore do you even have any evidence of them committing war crimes in general?
Purity of Arms - The IDF servicemen and women will use their weapons and force only for the purpose of their mission, only to the necessary extent, and will maintain their humanity even during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war and will do all in their power to avoid causing harm to their lives, bodies, dignity, and property.

Israel is justified in using force to stop this attack as a short-term goal.

What do you mean by a short-term goal, can you elaborate?

Israel’s Occupation of the Palestinian Territories

From what country is Israel occupying these territories? 

 is itself both a war crime

Ah yes, because controlling a piece of land is a war crime. I suppose by your logic Norway ought to be tried for violating the Geneva Convention given its occupation of Svalbard...

regularly brings about exactly the same kind of horror to Palestinians

By horror, I assume you refer to Israeli raids onto terrorist compounds(because that is the only time Israel really uses force in the West Bank for offensive operations). Which, mind you, isn't a tragedy, it's the government stopping terrorism. I don't see many people calling drug raids in America horror, so why is Israel so at fault here?

As a long-term solution to this conflict, the very issue that is causing these atrocities on both sides needs to end and Israel must cease its occupation.

That definitely isn't a long-term solution, over 500,000 Israelis would be evicted from their homes in Judea and Samaria, causing a massive refugee influx within Israel that would harm it. It would also be at a serious security disadvantage as, without Judea and Samaria, Israel can easily be cut in two within an hour by an enemy army.
Furthermore, is this even a moral option, even if it were feasible. Israelis already legally own most of the land in the West Bank, so what you are suggesting, is to forcibly steal the land, agriculture, and towns set up by private Israelis and give them over to people who are not affiliated with it. It is not moral to force innocent people to lose their land just so some terrorists might stop attacking. Which, they[terrorists] probably won't, because Palestinians have consistently refused peace offers, even ones that gave them all of the West Bank. This is because they intend to control all of Israel, not just Gaza and Judea, and Samaria.
Israel won that land in a war, fair and square, and its ownership of the land has been validated by its peace agreements with Jordan. Giving up the land is unfair to Israel, Israeli citizens. And is not a smart approach to end the crisis as without the support of the IDF, the more moderate PA will likely succumb quickly to terrorist groups like Hamas. Leading to a terrorist state not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank.

and the government is openly racist and apartheid,

If that were the case, why was there an Arab party in the Israeli national government back in 2021?

Return to 1967 borders with land swaps,

Which will again, most likely, lead to another war. If Israel's enemies suffer no major setbacks(like territorial losses), then what incentive will they have to stop coming after Israel?



I like how people on this forum can't wait to spread their anti-Israeli sentiments even when the Jewish nation has suffered the most amount of Jewish deaths in a single day since the Holocaust.
And I also like how certain people on this forum can't even attempt to stay on topic in regards to Hamas but instead try to throw phrases like "But what about Israeli occupation?" As if they are being apologetic for the massacres of 900+ Israelis by today. Whatboutism is a logical fallacy, whose users like Ampersand, are guilty of.

If you wanna talk about war crimes, Ampersand, then why won't you condemn Hama's rapings, massacres and kidnappings. Throughout Israel's post-1949 history, only 838 civilians have been killed in massacres. Hamas managed to surpass a number Israel took 74 years to reach, in just 3 days. If you want to condone countries about war crimes, remember to keep in mind which countries actually did the real atrocities.

MineSubCraftStarved

@jack
Then as a Jew, also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Israel for that.

Bogan

In 1864, the Confederate government announced that they were going to execute every African US soldier they captured.      Abraham Lincoln replied that if this was to occur, he would have executed one Confederate POW for every African US POW captured by the confederacy.     The Confederacy did not go through with their threat.     Unless you are prepared to fight fire with fire, an unprincipled enemy will always have the upper hand.   

In WW2, the German 12th SS Division executed 32 Canadian POW' captured a week after D-Day.      When that happened, regardless of the Geneva convention, the front line Canadian soldiers would not allow SS soldiers to surrender.      In WW2,. the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan could be considered a war crime except for one thing,     The Japanese themselves did not recognise the Geneva Convention and they had began the war with a savagery and cruelty not seen since the days of Genghis Khan.        Not only did they bomb civilian targets, they sunk hospital ships, and gang raped and executed captured nurses.       It was hardly surprising that front line allied soldiers replied with war crimes of their own.       Regardless of what chair bound politicians and diplomats think is right or wrong, front line soldiers will respond to a cruel and hated enemy with the same brutality that they know will be visited upon them, should they be captured by that enemy.   

All over the world, there are territorial disputes.        Russian Kaliningrad is actually East Prussia.       Russian Sakhalin Island is part of Japan.     Parts of Poland are now in Belorussia.      Gibraltar should be part of Spain.    The Argentinians claim to own the Falkland Islands.     But only the Muslims carry on like idiots over Palestine/Israel.     And the real reason is because Islam is a death cult.      Muslims believe that any land taken by Muslims is Muslim forever and it can never revert back to it's original owners.       That is what this is all about.     It is a religious war fought by mo-rons who think that the only way to improve their lot is to get killed fighting for Islam, and spend eternity at the seventh level of heaven screwing 72 self regenerating virgins.   

Their cause is bankrupt and they will never leave the Israelis in peace.         Wipe Gaza off the map and spread salt all over it so nothing will grow there again.    

anarchist100

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality.

F*ck off.

Nice counter argument.

anarchist100

Bogan said:

@anarchist100 ;   Civilized men do not become savages just because their enemies do, civilized men act in a way that achieves their goal practically, they don't cause unnecessary trouble for themselves and others out of anger like a wild beast. Anger is for animals and children.

Do you think that "civilised" men should slaughter and butcher their enemies in a civilised way?

They should be as violent as they have to in order to achieve their goal, Israel does not need to do what you say it should, it would only cause unnecessary suffering. I'm sure the people in the Israeli government are angry, but one shouldn't be ruled by anger to the point of acting in a foolish manner.

piloteer

@MineSubCraftStarved

Isreal is just another country. It in fact does NOT have the largest Jewish community on earth, that honor goes to the people of the United States. So as far as the country with the largest Jewish community is concerned, Isreal is just another country, not the US. There should be no concern on behalf of the citizens of the US economically or militarily for aiding Israeli illegal seizing of land from sovereign citizens who still have a valid claim to the territory. Israel repeatedly declares itself the rightful ruler over sovereign Palestinian territories which are increasingly becoming overcrowded massive city dwelling refugee encampments that have become hauntingly similar to a ghetto encampment surrounded by military forces on all sides. The US should not be giving aid of any kind to any country that does this. American taxpayers already have far too much debt and high cost of living to need to worry about donating their time and money to Israelis and their Mediterranean condo properties. 

I know there are those among the US Jewish community who are afraid to speak up against Israeli aggression and feel pressured to seem in lock step with some universal Zionist principle so instead they say nothing and get in bed with so called far right warriors who are obviously just antisemitic national socialist types who just don't want more Jewish people in the US. It is my belief that the US should open it's borders to ALL Israeli's who no longer feel safe against Palestinian terrorists or continued Zionist aggression for the sake of property value over human life. The US should welcome each and every Israeli citizen without question and feel welcome among not only the largest Jewish community on earth, but among all of the citizens of the United States. Those who oppose my claim that all Israeli citizens should be allowed to enter the US cannot really call themselves true supporters of Jewish people . It is then we will find those of us who only 'support' Isreal for the sake of making sure those Jewish people do not end up in the US or their respective country. As an American citizen, I say the true supporters of Jewish people will be those who would call for them to migrate to the US and live among the already largest Jewish community on earth.         

MineSubCraftStarved

@piloteer

It in fact does NOT have the largest Jewish community on earth

There are 7.15 million Jews in Israel and 7.6 million in America. So both countries are pretty much equal in this respect, so there isn't much of a point to say the USA has the largest Jewish population.

Israeli illegal seizing of land from sovereign citizens who still have a valid claim to the territory.

Israeli citizens are building settlements on empty land, not occupied by anyone. Jewish settlements encroaching on Palestinian Arab land areas are forbidden and demolished. Israel definitely respects the land rights of its Arab residents.

sovereign Palestinian territories 

Excuse me... but sovereign? Not entirely sure where this is coming from, I don't see a sovereign Palestinian country today, nor at any point in history. Even the PA is virtually under complete Israeli oversight, with no military and limited civilian and diplomatic capabilities being granted to them.

becoming overcrowded massive city dwelling refugee encampments that have become hauntingly similar to a ghetto encampment 

Hmmmm.... maybe because the PA isn't focused on accommodating them since their leadership is too busy lining their pockets. And why is this Israel's responsibility again?

surrounded by military forces on all sides

Because they regularly send terrorists into Israel proper. They aren't under siege, just under military checkpoints. Palestinian civilians can still enter and leave Israel proper and Jordan for work, so they aren't completely locked in.

The US should not be giving aid of any kind to any country that does this.

In exchange you get your strongest middle eastern ally, support from one of the word's largest computer hardware producer and innovator. A strong military ally(which is a nuclear ally btw), which helps the US innovate in technology and military doctrine(like the Iron Dome, and roof knocking). I think the exchange is well worth it for the United States.

US Jewish community who are afraid to speak up against Israeli aggression

I think you will find that the American Jewish community generally supports Israel. However plenty speak out against it, like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein, and organizations like JVP and If not Now.

 It is my belief that the US should open it's borders to ALL Israeli's

I don't see a lot of applicants bud.

Zionist aggression for the sake of property value over human life.

Not sure where this is coming from... But it's not too dissimilar from the sentiment that Jews value money over life. Just substitute Jew for "Zionist," and money with "property."


Also, here's the debate prompt:
How should Israel respond to the attacks by Gaza??

MineSubCraftStarved

@anarchist100

Nice counter argument.

It wasn't an argument, I just don't like people who call Jews sensitive and irrational.

anarchist100

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@anarchist100

Nice counter argument.

It wasn't an argument, I just don't like people who call Jews sensitive and irrational.

I'm not trying to get into an argument here, because clearly you're touchy about this, but it's really not all that unreasonable to say, Jew have probably spent more time than any other group trying to make life hard for people that offend them, there was a jewish guy on this site who literally tried to get a guy arrested for making rude jokes about jewish people. @Juleskonrad. Now maybe this is because they had it rough in the past, but having an excuse doesn't make it untrue.

All groups of people have some negative cultural aspects, Germans are miserable grouchy people, French are snobbish elitists, and jews are easily offended and get crazy when they're offended. There are good things too, like with every ethnicity, but taking ignoring negative things and pretending that your people are perfect isn't good. Notice how if I say something about Germans, or Frenchies they'll usually not make a big deal about it? That's because their culture doesn't care.

MayCaesar

How should anyone respond to repeated devastating attacks by someone who publicly announces that the sole cause for their existence is their extermination? Difficult question, is it not?

In my eyes, this is the rare case in which the generally awful Biblical prescription of "an eye for an eye" is actually a sound one. If someone is dead set on exterminating you, the only way to stop them is to exterminate them. In the battle between a deadly plague and the animal kingdom there is no compromise, nor is there a winner - there is only a survivor.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

At least you're consistent with the thinking of Ben Gurion Istaels first prime minister who along with his newly formed government stated that their goal was the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.

This indeed demonstrates clearly the appaling hypocrisy and double standards of the Jewish state which is still wailing about the Holocaust but thinks it a god given duty to irradicate by ethnic  an entire nation off the the planet.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved


Then as a Jew, also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Israel for that.


Then as a German , also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Germany  for that.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

It wasn't an argument, I just don't like people who call Jews sensitive and irrational.

Well maybe it's time you stop acting that way, you are indeed very sensitive and do display irrationally as in telling a fellow debater to f-ck off.

Dee

                              UNLAWFUL KILLINGS AND WAR CRIMES BY ISTAEL 
Israeli troops killed well over 2,000 Palestinian civilians in the last three Gaza conflicts (2008-09, 2012, 2014) alone. Many of these attacks amount to violations of international humanitarian law due to a failure to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians. Some amount to war crimes, including the targeting of apparent civilian structures.

In the West Bank, Israeli security forces have routinely used excessive force in policing situations, killing or grievously wounding thousands of demonstrators, rock-throwers, suspected assailants, and others with live ammunition when lesser means could have averted a threat or maintained order.

Armed Palestinian groups also committed war crimes during these conflicts and at other times, including rocket attacks targeting Israeli population centers. Between the start of the first Intifada in December 1987 and the end of February 2017, attacks by Palestinians killed at least 1,079 Israeli civilians, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem.

Israeli official investigations into alleged security force abuses during the Gaza conflicts and in policing situations failed to hold the abusers accountable, with rare exceptions. Palestinian authorities have also failed to investigate violations and hold those responsible to account.

Illegal Settlements
Israeli authorities have since 1967 facilitated the transfer of its civilians to the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In 1967, Israel established two settlements in the West Bank: Kfar Etzion and East Talpiot; by 2017, Israel had established 237 settlements there, housing approximately 580,000 settlers. Israel applies Israeli civil law to settlers, affording them legal protections, rights, and benefits that are not extended to Palestinians living in the same territory who are subjected to Israeli military law. Israel provides settlers with infrastructure, services, and subsidies that it denies to Palestinians, creating and sustaining a separate and unequal system of law, rules, and services.

 

Related Content

 Jerusalem Home Demolitions Harm Children

 2 Israelis Who Entered Gaza Held Incommunicado

 Israel/Palestine: Rights Workers Denied Gaza Access

 Palestine: Crackdown on Journalists, Activists

 

Forced Displacement
Israeli authorities have expropriated thousands of acres of Palestinian land for settlements and their supporting infrastructure. Discriminatory burdens, including making it nearly impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits in East Jerusalem and in the 60 percent of the West Bank under exclusive Israeli control (Area C), have effectively forced Palestinians to leave their homes or to build at the risk of seeing their “unauthorized” structures bulldozed. For decades, Israeli authorities have demolished homes on the grounds that they lacked permits, even though the law of occupation prohibits destruction of property except for military necessity, or punitively as collective punishment against families of Palestinians suspected of attacking Israelis.

 

Israel has also arbitrarily excluded hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from its population registry, restricting their ability to live in and travel from the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli authorities have justified these actions by citing general security concerns, but they have not conducted individual screenings or claimed that those excluded posed a threat themselves. Israel also revoked the residency of over 130,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and 14,565 in East Jerusalem since 1967, largely on the basis that they had been away too long.

 

Gaza Closure, Unjustified Movement Restrictions in West Bank
For the last 25 years, Israel has tightened restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the Gaza Strip in ways that far exceed any conceivable requirement of Israeli security. These restrictions affect nearly every aspect of everyday life, separating families, restricting access to medical care and educational and economic opportunities, and perpetuating unemployment and poverty. As of last year, Gaza’s GDP was 23 percent lower than in 1994. Seventy percent of Gaza’s 1.9 million people rely on humanitarian assistance.

 

Israel also has imposed onerous restrictions on freedom of movement in the West Bank, enforced at checkpoints within the West Bank and at its borders with Israel. Israel’s separation barrier, ostensibly solely built for security, in fact slices through the West Bank significantly more than it runs along the Green Line separating the West Bank from Israel, contrary to international humanitarian law, as confirmed by the International Court of Justice in July 2004.

 

Abusive Detention
Israeli authorities have incarcerated hundreds of thousands of Palestinians since 1967, the majority after trials in military courts, which have a near-100 percent conviction rate. In addition, on average, hundreds every year have been placed in administrative detention based on secret evidence without charge or trial. Some were detained or imprisoned for engaging in nonviolent activism. Israel also jails West Bank and Gaza Palestinian detainees inside Israel, creating onerous restrictions on family visits and violating international law requiring that they be held within the occupied territory. Many detainees, including children, face harsh conditions and mistreatment.

 

The Palestinian Authority, since its creation in 1994, and Hamas, since becoming the de facto authority in Gaza in 2007, have arbitrarily detained dissidents, tortured and mistreated detainees, and, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, executed 41 people pursuant to death sentences after flawed trials.

 

The law of occupation, designed to regulate the exceptional and temporary situation in which a foreign military power displaces the lawful sovereign and rules by force, grants an occupier broad but limited powers to restrict individuals and their rights to meet security needs.

 

However, in a prolonged occupation in which occupiers have the opportunity to develop more narrowly tailored responses to security threats, exemptions to rights protections should be reduced and the balance shifted toward respecting, protecting, and fulfilling all fundamental rights of the population. In addition, the occupier’s obligation to restore normal civilian life for the local population increases with the passage of time, as do its obligations to progressively realize the social, economic, and cultural rights of residents of the occupied territory.

 

After decades of failure to rein in abuses associated with the occupation, the international community should take more active measures to hold Israeli and Palestinian authorities to their obligations under international human rights and humanitarian law. Other countries and businesses should cease activities carried out inside settlements and change policies that support settlement-related activities and infrastructure, in keeping with their respective human rights responsibilities.

 

Governments should use their leverage to press Israel to end the generalized travel ban for Palestinians from Gaza and permit the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza, subject to individualized security screenings and physical inspection. The International Criminal Court should open a formal investigation into serious international crimes committed in Israel and Palestine both by Israelis and Palestinians.

 

“Fifty years of occupation and decades of a fruitless peace process should put firmly to rest the notion that downplaying human rights will ease the path to a negotiated solution to the conflict,” Whitson said. “Concerted action for rights and accountability is urgently needed, including through the International Criminal Court.”

 

On the occasion of the occupation’s 50th anniversary, Human Rights Watch has made available online publications dating back to the 1980s and early 1990s.

 

The law of occupation, designed to regulate the exceptional and temporary situation in which a foreign military power displaces the lawful sovereign and rules by force, grants an occupier broad but limited powers to restrict individuals and their rights to meet security needs.

 

However, in a prolonged occupation in which occupiers have the opportunity to develop more narrowly tailored responses to security threats, exemptions to rights protections should be reduced and the balance shifted toward respecting, protecting, and fulfilling all fundamental rights of the population. In addition, the occupier’s obligation to restore normal civilian life for the local population increases with the passage of time, as do its obligations to progressively realize the social, economic, and cultural rights of residents of the occupied territory.

 

After decades of failure to rein in abuses associated with the occupation, the international community should take more active measures to hold Israeli and Palestinian authorities to their obligations under international human rights and humanitarian law. Other countries and businesses should cease activities carried out inside settlements and change policies that support settlement-related activities and infrastructure, in keeping with their respective human rights responsibilities.

 

Governments should use their leverage to press Israel to end the generalized travel ban for Palestinians from Gaza and permit the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza, subject to individualized security screenings and physical inspection. The International Criminal Court should open a formal investigation into serious international crimes committed in Israel and Palestine both by Israelis and Palestinians.

 

“Fifty years of occupation and decades of a fruitless peace process should put firmly to rest the notion that downplaying human rights will ease the path to a negotiated solution to the conflict,” Whitson said. “Concerted action for rights and accountability is urgently needed, including through the International Criminal Court.”

 

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved


Deliberately lying when you know the savage  behavior of the state of Israel is being monitored and documented daily by human rights organisations is your usual tactic but fails miserably .......

I just bet you usual defence will  kick in as in " those sources cannot be trusted as they're enemies of israel , right.?

WOULD YOU LIKE AMNESTY INTERNATIONALS STATS ON THE ABUSES BY THE STATE OF ISRAEL,?

                                              HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATIONS

(Jerusalem) – Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today. 

 

At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians. 

 

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved



Israel hasn't been committing virtually any war crimes against Palestinians, and none of its policies and training practices support this assumaboun


You sound similar to Rudolf Hoss , of course you will say the comparison is unfair , Hoss would admire your ability to use denial tactics straight from his text book of defences against atrocities claims.

Rudolf Höss, the commandant at Auschwitz, used the same defense. He explained:

Don’t you see, we SS men were not supposed to think about these things; it never even occurred to us. . . . We were all so trained to obey orders without even thinking that the thought of disobeying an order would simply never have occurred to anybody, and somebody else would have done just as well if I hadn’t. . . . I really never gave much thought to whether it was wrong. It just seemed a necessity.

Ampersand

@MineSubCraftStarved

It's still wrong, but a lot more understandable.

And does that understanding flow both ways; that as literally every Hamas militant will have been brought up suffering under Israeli war crimes any war crimes they commit are also a lot more understandable?

Or is it just a whitewashing of one side?

If the former then fair enough, if the latter then that’s just partisan politics.

I don't think anyone in Israel is seriously considering genocide or mass killings of civilians besides a few radicals.

 
A slow but gradual policy of ethnic cleansing has been Israel’s de facto policy for years and they will be fighting in the same way as they have for decades where their army conducts indiscriminate killing of civilians.

Israel hasn't been committing virtually any war crimes against Palestinians, and none of its policies and training practices support this assumption. One of the key principles within the IDF is "purity of arms," which directly states that a key ethic within the Israeli army is not to harm targets outside of your operation objectives(IE, civilians). If Israel has been committing war crimes against Palestinians regularly for decades, why would this be one of their main principles?

This is a little like saying “The US Constitution says everyone is born free and equal, so obviously slavery, Jim Crow and racism could never exist in the USA.”

Regardless of your thoughts on the matter (and “why would a government try to present itself in the best possible light” isn’t exactly a tough question to answer) we are able to assess Israel’s actual actions.

Quantitively they are likely responsible for more war crimes than any other nation on Earth, as they’ve been illegally occupying the OPT for over 50 years now and every single Palestinian in the territories has suffered that with their restriction on basic human rights that they face.

Qualitatively, they kill civilians, cripple peaceful protestors, use civilians as hostages/human shields, detain people without trial, torture detainees including children, etc, etc. All this is documented by the UN, journalists, international human rights organisations like Amnesty International and even Israeli human rights organisations like B’tselem.

Ah yes, because controlling a piece of land is a war crime. I suppose by your logic Norway ought to be tried for violating the Geneva Convention given its occupation of Svalbard...

Taking land by force is explicitly a war crime that is proscribed by the UN charter, specific UN SC resolutions, the Nuremberg principles.

You also seem to be talking about occupation in the layman sense, not the military/lawful sense laid out in the Geneva Conventions, etc so your comparison to Svalbard is rather irrelevant.

What do you mean by a short-term goal, can you elaborate?

It is allowed to use force to defend itself from these current attacks in the short term. It is not allowed to use force to maintain its decades long occupation of the Palestinian Territories.

From what country is Israel occupying these territories? 

It’s occupying the Palestinian Territories, hence the use of the word territory. There is no country there yet. Part of the issue with the occupation aside from the Israeli killings, torture, slow ethnic cleansing, forcing millions to live in poverty, etc is that it is also denying the Palestinians the right to self-determination and to form their own government and country.

That definitely isn't a long-term solution, over 500,000 Israelis would be evicted from their homes in Judea and Samaria, causing a massive refugee influx within Israel that would harm it.

Firstly, just because it’s not a long-term solution you personally like doesn’t mean it’s not a long-term solution.

Secondly, according to the logic you apply later in your post to the Palestinians about needing to make sure people aren’t ‘rewarded’ for war crimes the expulsion of these people is a bonus and not a problem. They are there illegally, their settlements constitute a war crime and are part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing and so therefore they shouldn’t be rewarded by being allowed to keep Palestinian land.

Thirdly, from the time when serious peace talks were actually a thing Palestine was consistently willing to allow land swaps based on the 1967 borders so all the major towns in the OPT would become Israeli in return for undeveloped land from the Israelis. Hence there would be no massive evacuation, just a smaller one of the isolated settlers.

It would also be at a serious security disadvantage as, without Judea and Samaria, Israel can easily be cut in two within an hour by an enemy army.

Similarly with Gaza and the West Bank joined by only a thing corridor they don’t even control in the hypothetical peace deals of the past. Are you therefore arguing that Israel has to give up masses of land to a future Palestinian state to make them more secure? If not, why the hypocrisy?

Furthermore, is this even a moral option, even if it were feasible. Israelis already legally own most of the land in the West Bank, so what you are suggesting, is to forcibly steal the land, agriculture, and towns set up by private Israelis and give them over to people who are not affiliated with it. 

Israelis are illegal settlers in the West Bank, they have no ownership of the land there. This is one of the most agreed upon points in all international politics. You can’t legally own something that you’ve stolen by force.

It is not moral to force innocent people to lose their land just so some terrorists might stop attacking

Great, so we agree that the Palestinians don’t need to give land to the Israelis merely out of the hope of stopping the Israelis committing war crimes.

Which, they[terrorists] probably won't, because Palestinians have consistently refused peace offers, even ones that gave them all of the West Bank. This is because they intend to control all of Israel, not just Gaza and Judea, and Samaria.

When peace talks were actually a thing Fatah, not Hamas who you seem to be confusing them with, were willing to accept the peace with Palestine only existing on the West Bank and Gaza. The two sides never came to an agreement but the Palestinians made offers which gave Israel much more than they had any legal entitlement to and these were still rejected.

Which will again, most likely, lead to another war. If Israel's enemies suffer no major setbacks(like territorial losses), then what incentive will they have to stop coming after Israel?

The cause of decades of conflict is the occupation. Removing that removes the cause.

Also we’re not talking about rewarding Hamas, we’re talking about stopping committing war crimes against the Palestinian people - acts for which there is never a valid excuse.

And I also like how certain people on this forum can't even attempt to stay on topic in regards to Hamas but instead try to throw phrases like "But what about Israeli occupation?" As if they are being apologetic for the massacres of 900+ Israelis by today. Whatboutism is a logical fallacy, whose users like Ampersand, are guilty of.

Firstly I’d like to say that in your post you literally advocate for and whitewash war crimes. I’ve responded to you gently as I hope that this is due to a lack of knowledge of the situation, but if you continue you can expect me to be too forceful.

Secondly, I have stated that Hamas’s actions are atrocious and Israel has a right to defend itself to stop them.

Thirdly, the idea that the occupation is some unrelated point brought out as a distraction is gobsmacking. The occupation is the underlying reason for the decades of conflict and the very attacks that are taking place. Discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict without discussing the occupation is like discussing whether smoking is good or bad without mentioning that it causes cancer - it misses the entire point.

If you wanna talk about war crimes, Ampersand, then why won't you condemn Hama's rapings, massacres and kidnappings. Throughout Israel's post-1949 history, only 838 civilians have been killed in massacres. Hamas managed to surpass a number Israel took 74 years to reach, in just 3 days. If you want to condone countries about war crimes, remember to keep in mind which countries actually did the real atrocities.

I think this past line says a lot, “real atrocities” as if the murders and torture and human rights abuses against Palestinians don’t count. For my (and as per law and basic morality) all war crimes are abhorrent. I condemned Hamas in my last post and in case you missed it I’ll do it again: their actions are horrific and cannot be justified. The question is, can you say the same about Israel? So far no, you’ve literally argued for war crimes in your post. Take a breath, come back and look at this with decency and fairness.

Also your stats are wrong, just in the last 15 years for instance Israel has killed nearly 4,000 civilians and that’s only people (including children) directly not the massive amount of premature deaths caused by the occupation giving Palestinians some of the worst living standards on earth. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: How Israel Should Respond

Israel should cease fire...after totally wiping out Hamas.

jack

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@jack
Then as a Jew, also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Israel for that.

Hello M:

I'm a proud Jew who LOVED showing the world what underdogs can do.

I'm also a proud liberal who HATES how the right wing Israeli government is treating the underdog Palestinians.

excon

jack

Dee said:

@MineSubCraftStarved


Then as a Jew, also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Israel for that.


Then as a German , also remember what taught the world that we can't be pushed around that easily. And respect Germany  for that.

Hello Dee:

If Germany won the war, you could say they don't take being pushed around..

But, they got PUSHED around plenty by the whole fu*cking world.   And, it was good to see.

excon

Ampersand

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality

This is outright racism. You’re making a statement about an entire ethnoreligious group.

Criticise Israel for what it’s done, but don’t conflate Israel and Judaism and don’t act like either is one monolithic group. There might be Jewish Israeli settlers stoning Palestinians, but there are also Jewish Israeli human rights groups who will use their own bodies as human shields to protect Palestinians.

jack

Ampersand said:

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality

This is outright racism. You’re making a statement about an entire ethnoreligious group.

Hello A:

Don't fret..  For 6,000 years, Jews have been hated by better haters than him, yet we're still here - and thriving.

excon

piloteer

MineSubCraftStarved said:

@piloteer

Also, here's the debate prompt:
How should Israel respond to the attacks by Gaza??

As a citizen of the most major foreign financier of Israeli aggression, I'd say the US has a huge say in how Israel wants to conduct itself!!!! I help pay for it, therefore my input as to what Israel should do is of the utmost importance weather you like it or you don't. If you live in Israel yourself, you can't really claim to know how many among the American Jewish community are appalled by Israel or not, can ya? And however many Israeli citizens you think would not ever want to come to the US is of no value either way, they should be welcome regardless of your opinions on it. 

It may not be the responsibility of Israel to ensure the Palestinian peoples quality of life, but then it is equally not the responsibility of the US to aid Isreal in any manner whatsoever, and it is also not our responsibility to make sure we do not ever speak of the fact that Palestinians are  treated as second class citizens in their own homeland. Some may feel the people of the US are mean when they are open about their concern for US citizens above all others first and foremost, but I am willing to not apologize beforehand for totally embracing our right as a country to only concern myself with the needs of the US.

The whole, "Israel is your best ally in the region" argument holds no water because the reason Isreal is our only "ally" in that region is precisely BECAUSE they're our ally. It would be easy to recognize that the US could easily have better relations with every other middle eastern country if Israel were not our "ally". In fact, perhaps the US could go back to having a close relationship with Saudi Arabia like it use to have before Israel became a country in that region. It's not like that would be a bad idea since the US economy and Saudi Arabia's economy or so much more closely tied together than that of Israeli-US economic ties. Israel may have the right to protect themselves and put their own national interest above the feelings of all other countries, but that is also true for the US, and the fact remains that Israel is not a strong economic ally for the US. If it is our responsibility as a country to put our interests above the interests of all other countries just like Israel, then it is not morally wrong to question the principle of protecting Israel just for the sake of protecting Israel at the behest of straining our economic and military relationships with other middle eastern countries, most notably Saudi Arabia.   

I'm sorry if the obvious sentiment of my argument is that Israel should not have an all out war with Palestinians, but if the hope is for you to convince me that the US is somehow morally obligated to protect Isreal at all costs, I will ensure that argument is as slippery of a slope as possible for you because it is me who has to donate my hard earned money for foreign interests that I would not have ever had a concern about had I never been forced to pay for such things.   

Dee

@jack

Yes and I'm glad Germany got beaten,   call me old fashioned but I don't like it one bit when people like MineSub say the state of Israel indulging in  every act of barbarity is entirely justified 

Dee

@jack

I'm also a proud liberal who HATES how the right wing Israeli government is treating the underdog Palestinians.


Well said.

Bogan

@piloteer

Piloteer quote      Israel is just another country. It in fact does NOT have the largest Jewish community on earth, that honor goes to the people of the United States. So as far as the country with the largest Jewish community is concerned, Isreal is just another country, not the US.

Human beings are tribal and territorial.     To say that Jews in the USA should have no feelings of kinship with Jews in Israel is plainly silly and unworkable.    This is especially so for Jews, because they are the most persecuted people on earth and they learned a long time ago that they needed to stick together to survive.   So, if there are a lot of Jews in the USA, then that or course is going to affect the politics of the USA.

Piloteer quote       There should be no concern on behalf of the citizens of the US economically or militarily for aiding Israeli illegal seizing of land from sovereign citizens who still have a valid claim to the territory.

That concern exists because Jews will naturally take side of Jews, especially when the Jews of Israel are surrounded by people who want to wipe them off the map.    As for “having a valid claim to land”, as I wrote in my previous post, there are territorial disputes all over planet earth, but the reason why most of them have not become hot wars, is because people in most nations do not think it is worth getting into a war over.    Muslims re different.     Their own lives are so miserable that the only chance they have for a better life is by sneaking into a western country, or dying for Allah and going directly to heaven.

Piloteer quote      Israel repeatedly declares itself the rightful ruler over sovereign Palestinian territories which are increasingly becoming overcrowded massive city dwelling refugee encampments that have become hauntingly similar to a ghetto encampment surrounded by military forces on all sides.

Then there is a simple solution to that.       Muslim nations should allow Gazans and “Palestinians” to immigrate into their countries and the problem would be solved.   That could have been achieved 70 years ago.     But they will never do that.    That is because every Muslim country not floating on oil is a sheethole and the dictators who run these sheetholes are like Big Brother in “1984”.     They need an enemy for their people to hate so that their own people will not think about reforming their own political system.   Gaza only exists because of western and Islamic terrorist aid.     It is economically unviable.   

 Piloteer quote.    The US should not be giving aid of any kind to any country that does this.      

The USA became the USA by doing it itself.     It stole the land from native Americans and Mexicans, who stole the land from the previous owners, who stole the land from the previous owners.     Israel/Palestine could have been partitioned in 1947.   But the Muslims were utterly opposed to that for religious reasons.     They keep trying to wipe Israel off the map, and they keep failing.     If somebody wants to wipe your nation off the map, which means doing to your population what the HAMAS fighters from Gaza did to the Israeli citizens surrounding Gaza, then you re not going to be well disposed towards that group of people who would walk into your home with an assault rifle and shoot your wife and kids if they had the chance. 

Piloteer quote    American taxpayers already have far too much debt and high cost of living to need to worry about donating their time and money to Israelis and their Mediterranean condo properties. 

 They do have a lot of debt, so which countries it is in your interest to support and which countries are not pulling their defense weight should be an important consideration.     This is what Donald Trump was saying, yet people like yourself opposed Donald Trump.

Piloteer quote      I know there are those among the US Jewish community who are afraid to speak up against Israeli aggression and feel pressured to seem in lock step with some universal Zionist principle……

I would counter that by saying that there are some young Jews who are in a quandary about supporting their own kith and kin, or supporting the aims of the educated activist class with whom they also identify, and who’s opposition to Israel is considered one of the important issues which define membership of that woke and disgusting class.

 

Piloteer quote ……. so instead they say nothing and get in bed with so called far right warriors who are obviously just antisemitic national socialist types who just don't want more Jewish people in the US.

 There definitely are far right people who are anti semitic.    One reason for that is, because too many young Jews are members of the liberal left, neo-Marxist activist class who wish to destroy western democratic civilization.        But my own opinion, is that most right wing people support Israel because they are smart enough to figure out that while Jews in western society can be very beneficial, all Muslims are our self declared enemies, and they always have been, and they always will be.  How come you are not smart enough to figure it out?  

Piloteer quote     It is my belief that the US should open it's borders to ALL Israeli's who no longer feel safe against Palestinian terrorists or continued Zionist aggression for the sake of property value over human life.

A lot of US citizens and European are immigrating the other way because they no longer feel safe in their own western countries, because people like yourself (and liberal, neo Marxist jews) were crazy enough to import Muslims, and you are now feeling like Christian Scientists with appendicitis. 

Piloteer quote     The US should welcome each and every Israeli citizen without question and feel welcome among not only the largest Jewish community on earth, but among all of the citizens of the United States.

Your answer is for the Jews to move, not the Palestinians?    Sorry, I don’t agree with that.     Jews would make almost ideal citizens in western countries, (if you could knock the neo-Marxist ideas out of the young ones) because they are intelligent and productive.   Which is a lot more than you can say about Muslims.    80% of Muslims in Australia are on social welfare.   But the Israelis will never agree to your proposal.     Jews need a place on earth that they can run to if the people of the countries they live in turn on them.

Piloteer quote    Those who oppose my claim that all Israeli citizens should be allowed to enter the US cannot really call themselves true supporters of Jewish people .

As far as I know, Israeli citizens already do have the right to apply to immigrate into the USA.      But more US jews are fleeing the other way because people like yourself, including neo Marxist or at least very liberal Jews like Jack, allowed the enemies of the west to cross our moats and enter our keeps.

Piloter quote      It is then we will find those of us who only 'support' Israel for the sake of making sure those Jewish people do not end up in the US or their respective country. As an American citizen, I say the true supporters of Jewish people will be those who would call for them to migrate to the US and live among the already largest Jewish community on earth.  

Thy are fleeing the other way, ma-a-a-ate.    One reason why I am a racist is because of Israel.        Too many jews in my own country supported multiculturalism and it ended up biting the Jews on the bum, because that meant importing Muslims.    Jewish schools in Australia now have armed guards on them.     So, you had liberal Jews wanting multiculturalism in every western country, while insisting on Jewish monoculturalism in Israel.   Hypocrisy has always been a very good reason for a once liberal person like myself to re asses my views. 

anarchist100

Ampersand said:

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality

This is outright racism. You’re making a statement about an entire ethnoreligious group.

Criticise Israel for what it’s done, but don’t conflate Israel and Judaism and don’t act like either is one monolithic group. There might be Jewish Israeli settlers stoning Palestinians, but there are also Jewish Israeli human rights groups who will use their own bodies as human shields to protect Palestinians.

I'm making a statement about a group's cultural tendency, every group has cultural tendencies, it's about as racist as saying that the Irish are crude, which they are.

Anyhow the reason I bring up Jewish culture is because the people making the decisions are all Jews.

anarchist100

jack said:

Ampersand said:

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality

This is outright racism. You’re making a statement about an entire ethnoreligious group.

Hello A:

Don't fret..  For 6,000 years, Jews have been hated by better haters than him, yet we're still here - and thriving.

excon

Jews have not been around for 6,000 years.

anarchist100

jack said:

Ampersand said:

@anarchist100

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality

This is outright racism. You’re making a statement about an entire ethnoreligious group.

Hello A:

Don't fret..  For 6,000 years, Jews have been hated by better haters than him, yet we're still here - and thriving.

excon

Oh dear, it seems that I hates jews, I wonder why the French, Germans and Irish haven't caught on that I hate them too. Must not be very smart.

Dee

@anarchist100


 I wonder why the French, Germans and Irish haven't caught on

But here is an Irishman who has caught on ,you just said the Irish are crude which is a pretty childish judgement which seems to be based on nothing but prejudice.

Ampersand

@anarchist100

That’s not how you worded it. Your statement was about Jews as a whole and is essentially just a racist racial stereotype. Your defence is no better than some racist going “But black people simply are disproportionately lazy savages”.

Anyhow the reason I bring up Jewish culture is because the people making the decisions are all Jews.

Making which decisions? Is this conspiracy theory nonsense?

anarchist100

Dee said:

@anarchist100


 I wonder why the French, Germans and Irish haven't caught on

But here is an Irishman who has caught on ,you just said the Irish are crude which is a pretty childish judgement which seems to be based on nothing but prejudice.

It's true though, the Irish are well known for being foul-mouthed, having a crude sense of humor, and not being afraid of expressing anger, every Irishman I've met has been this way, and pretty much every non-Irishman who's spent a lot of time among them will agree with me, at least that's my experience, perhaps there's some bias involved, I can't provide you an exact statistic on this, but I have met lots of Irishmen, and it seems to always be the case. It really isn't a bad thing, most Irishmen are good people, even though some non-Irishmen might be offended by their mannerisms.

I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

anarchist100

Ampersand said:

@anarchist100

That’s not how you worded it. Your statement was about Jews as a whole and is essentially just a racist racial stereotype. Your defence is no better than some racist going “But black people simply are disproportionately lazy savages”.

Well them I worded it wrong, of course I'm not making a statement about every member of a group, that would be absurd.

Anyhow the reason I bring up Jewish culture is because the people making the decisions are all Jews.

Making which decisions? Is this conspiracy theory nonsense?

No, we're talking about Israel's response to the attacks, jews are deciding that.

Dee

@anarchist100


It's true though, the Irish are well known for being foul-mouthed, having a crude sense of humor, and not being afraid of expressing anger, every Irishman I've met has been this way, and pretty much every non-Irishman who's spent a lot of time among them will agree with me,

"Every non irishman agrees with you" so that's virtually  the entire population of the world agree with you? Seriously you say a loy of truly silly things this ranks up their.


 at least that's my experience, perhaps there's some bias involved, I can't provide you an exact statistic on this,

But you just said more or less the entire world agrees with you , now it's just your experience?

Yes maybe there some bias/ hate there. But of course you cannot provide stats bigots like you never can.

 but I have met lots of Irishmen, and it seems to always be the case

Where did you meet these crude Irishman who offended and  upset your superior cultured make up that makes you hate them?


It's remarkable really that millions of mostly  Americans visit us every year and rarely express a negative thing about the country but of course you know better 


. It really isn't a bad thing, most Irishmen are good people

Yet you admit you hate them , your words right?

As a nation our president thanks you so much for that very kind endorsement,  it means a lot.

, even though some non-Irishmen might be offended by their mannerisms.

A law is being passed here that in future Irismen must courtesy when they encounter female members of your cultured family and doff their collective hats on being confronted by your esteemed presence.




I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.


LOL getting judged by an ignorant uneducated oaf like you is pretty amusing to say the least.

Ireland: one of most respected countries in the world

Ireland is now one of the most admired and respected countries in the world

Ireland placed 11th as the best place out of 55 countries, according to research by The Reputation Institute.

Ireland ranked ahead of the UK, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal and France and the US in the Country RepTrak study, which was compiled by the Reputation Institute and its Irish counterpart, the Reputations Agency, the Irish Times reports.

Over 48,000 people across the G8 countries were surveyed via an online poll. ‘Effective government,’ ‘appealing environment,’ and advanced economy’ were also taken into account, reports Joe.ie.

Ireland ranked number nine for its “friendly and welcoming people” and  placed number six for having a “beautiful country.”

“An increasingly globalised world with intensified competition makes country reputation matter more than ever,” said Niamh Boyle, managing director of the Reputations Agency.

“Attracting tourists, FDI and high-skilled workforce, improving international diplomacy, and being able to sell Irish products abroad, are all facilitated by having a strong country reputation.

Bogan

Anarchist100 quote  It's true though, the Irish are well known for being foul-mouthed, having a crude sense of humor, and not being afraid of expressing anger, every Irishman I've met has been this way, and pretty much every non-Irishman who's spent a lot of time among them will agree with me, at least that's my experience, perhaps there's some bias involved, I can't provide you an exact statistic on this, but I have met lots of Irishmen, and it seems to always be the case. It really isn't a bad thing, most Irishmen are good people, even though some non-Irishmen might be offended by their mannerisms.

I have cut your statement and pasted it in your "clangers" file, and if you ever complain about racism, I am going to toss this quote from you back your in your face.

Bogan

@Ampersand ;    quote   And does that understanding flow both ways; that as literally every Hamas militant will have been brought up suffering under Israeli war crimes any war crimes they commit are also a lot more understandable?

Ama-a-a-azing.     You have this bizarre conviction that the poor oppressed Muslims were living hobbit like n Palestine respecting other religions and cultures, and these poor, peace loving people have been invaded by the green meanie Jews who only wish to dispossess and oppress them?

Hey ma-a-a-ate.    Reality check.         All of the Middle East and Near East was either Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Druze, or Buddhist before the religion of caravan raiders called "Islam" burst out of Arabia in 600AD and began conquering every other state, using an entirely new way of warfare.    That was, to promise warriors who fell in battle the promise of everlasting life, as well as numerous other social and sexual benefits.     It worked a treat.    Once conquered, the Muslims gave the captured population an offer they could not refuse.   Become Muslims, or will will either kill you, take everything you have, make you our slaves, or find some other way to make your life miserable.    Muslims most definitely do not believe in multiculturalism.           In Islamic countries, you become a Muslim if you know what is good for you, or you get out.     Muslims are the word's most accomplished ethnic cleansers.  

Islam conquered Palestine/Israel and stuck a dirty great mosque right on top of the Jews most holy temple.     That is their way of saying that this is now Muslim land forever.     Islam is exactly like Nazism when it comes to taking land.   Hitler said that where a German soldier put his foot, that was now German land forever.   Which was why Hitler would not allow his 6th Army to escape from Stalingrad.       Islam is exactly the same.      They have conquered Palestine/Israel and they can never give it back.   Especially so, because it was once the homeland of the Jews, who their prophet utterly hated.     That is why the problem of Israel which once could easily be solved by partition 70 year's ago, had the Muslims agreed to it. has become so much of a problem today.

Now, get it through your feeble little brain that nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel is what the Muslims want.      Neither HAMAS, Al Fatah, the PLO, or Hezbollah have any interest in living in peace with Israel.     Gaza was given back to the "Palestinians"  as a peace gesture by Israel and all that has achieved was to make Gaza a terrorist enclave adjacent to Israel.      Giving back Gaza was bitterly opposed by right wing Israelis, because they knew what would happen.   The "right wingers" were right.        

If there are a race of people who are utterly obsessed with the idea of wiping your nation off the map, killing all the women, raping all the men, and turning your kids into slaves, then I think it is okay for Israelis to be a bit harsh on them.    As for Jews taking Muslim land, two things are relevant there.    The first is, that Muslims can hardly complain about somebody taking their land when they have been taking not only other people's countries for 1400 years, but also confiscating the property of non Muslims.     Secondly, governments in every country reserve the right to acquire any citizens land within the country if it is in the public interest.     Muslims in Israel should not be exempt from the obligation towards government resumption of their land if it is in the Israeli public's interest.    

anarchist100

Bogan said:

Anarchist100 quote  It's true though, the Irish are well known for being foul-mouthed, having a crude sense of humor, and not being afraid of expressing anger, every Irishman I've met has been this way, and pretty much every non-Irishman who's spent a lot of time among them will agree with me, at least that's my experience, perhaps there's some bias involved, I can't provide you an exact statistic on this, but I have met lots of Irishmen, and it seems to always be the case. It really isn't a bad thing, most Irishmen are good people, even though some non-Irishmen might be offended by their mannerisms.

I have cut your statement and pasted it in your "clangers" file, and if you ever complain about racism, I am going to toss this quote from you back your in your face.

What even is racism? Is it racist to say the Irish are crude if it's not an issue to me? I don't hate the Irish, their vulgarity isn't even a problem for me. Also what makes you think I would ever complain about racism? Awhile ago you accused me of hating Trump and voting for democrats, why do you jump to conclusions so easily?

anarchist100

@Dee Whatever you say.

MayCaesar

I am not sure at which point it became extremely unpopular to reference fact-based stereotypes. It is absolutely true that certain groups of people exhibit certain characteristics statistically more sharply than certain other groups of people, and it is also absolutely true that some of those characteristics are conventionally seen as bad/undesirable. The following statements are true (although they are a bit fuzzy and prone to interpretation):

1. "Japanese bow more often than Chinese".
2. "English smile more often than Russians".
   
3. "Brazilians play soccer more often than Kenyans".
   
4. "Black people commit violent crimes more often than white people".
   
5. "Arabs commit terrorist attacks more often than Jews".
   
6. "Asians succeed academically more often than Latin".

All of these statements are merely statistical comparisons, and it is reasonable therefore to expect that a random person from the first group is more likely to do the stated actively than a random person from the second group. However, for some reason people do not have a problem with the first 3 statements, but have a serious issue with the last 3. Everybody understands that Japanese bow more often than Chinese due to cultural differences, and while some people might see the gesture as reminiscent of the feudal times, few would go out of their way to make a strong case against anyone stating this claim. But if you say that Arabs are generally more prone to terrorism than Jews, then - even though the statement is exactly as true as the previous one - then immediately someone will start protesting, "Hey, not all Arabs are like that, and Jews also are not perfect, and stop stereotyping, you racist bigot".

It is curious how strongly many people are influenced by the cultural zeitgeist, how easily they give in to the peer pressure, and how willingly they adopt other people's positions whenever strong emotions are involved. 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Ampersand

that as literally every Hamas militant will have been brought up suffering under Israeli war crimes

Which war crimes? You are using really vague terminology. What crimes exactly has Israel committed?

any war crimes they commit are also a lot more understandable?

Israel never decapitated babies or burned old women(something Hamas has done). This means that no, even if Israel has bombed military targets in Gaza, that does not justify the needless killing of civilians by Hamas, particularly women, children, and the elderly.

A slow but gradual policy of ethnic cleansing has been Israel’s de facto policy for years

This is a laughable proposition to insinuate given that the Arab population is growing at a faster rate than the Jewish population. And the population within the territories is growing at a far larger rate than that of Israel proper. Were Israel trying to ethnically cleanse Palestinians this would not be the case.

Have you ever attempted researching this topic,? A simple two-minute Google search dispels any notion that Israel is trying desperately to get rid of its Arab population.

Taking land by force is explicitly a war crime 

Then I suppose every country in the world ought to be tried for their supposed war crimes. But Israel's ownership of Judea and Samaria can't even be considered illegal because it signed a deal with Jordan, the land's previous owner, validating its ownership of the West Bank. Making your entire argument of "illegal occupation" utterly mute.
This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory that came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory. - Israeli and Jordan peace deal regarding the West Bank.

50 years now and every single Palestinian in the territories has suffered from the restriction on basic human rights that they face.

I assume by restrictions, you are referring to the checkpoint system.
Having traffic pile up due to checkpoints set up because your community breeds terrorists that they throw at Israel isn't a bad thing. It's either a wave of terrorism in Israel or checkpoints via Israeli military law. One option is definitely better than the other.

Qualitatively, they kill civilians

Almost never do they do that intentionally for the sake of killing civilians.

cripple peaceful protestors

I assume you're referring to incidents where Israeli security forces shoot tear gas into crowds that then injure protests(because those are the only cases where that really happened).
Those are accidental, not intentional. Making your argument mute that Israel intentionally cripples peaceful protestors.

use civilians as hostages/human shields,

Are you referring to EAW or something else? Because that's a whole separate discussion. Also include your source if you wanna be taken seriously.

detain people without trial,

Mainly because they are terrorists who are not citizens of Israel, and are subject to Israeli military law. I ought to tell you that not everything is as posh as you have it as a White Western European. Israel is at war with terrorism, and being at war means that sometimes people are not given a trial. This is unavoidable because the alternative is letting potential terrorists back out into the streets which may wreak havoc within Israel.

torture detainees including children, etc, etc.

Of which the vast majority of those reports(particularly those from children) are based purely on personal testimony and nothing else. Meaning that they don't have much of a strong legal basis.
BTW, if it's between letting innocent civilians die, or having terrorists tortured, I'd rather have the bastard tortured, thank you very much.

I seriously despise how those in the West sit on their posh chairs, drinking hot tea, at home, comfortable, telling others how to conduct their wars and conflicts. The world isn't perfect, and sometimes to save people you have to do bad things. In this respect, Israel is completely justified.

It is not allowed to use force to maintain its decades-long occupation of the Palestinian Territories.

And so if enemy countries suffer no long-term concessions(IE. territory losses) because Israel withdraws, then what is stopping them from attacking again?

There is no country there yet.

Then how TF can it be considered an occupation if it isn't occupying it from another country??

Firstly, just because it’s not a long-term solution you personally like doesn’t mean it’s not a long-term solution.

A long-term solution is also to nuke Gaza, parts of Judea and Samaria, and the surrounding Arab nations to oblivion, just because you don't personally like it doesn't make it a long-term solution.

They are there illegally, their settlements constitute a war crime and are part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing and so therefore they shouldn’t be rewarded by being allowed to keep Palestinian land.

The land Israeli settlers move into isn't owned by any Palestinians. Israel respects Palestinian land rights, and you can find multiple instances of the Israeli government evicting settlers for encroaching onto Palestinian land areas(such as this one Yishuv that was destroyed because it was on Palestinian land).
It's preposterous to suggest that building on empty, unowned land is a war crime. Nor does it demonstrate ethnic cleansing. Every single one of your arguments up to this point has been empty claims, with little reasoning.
You have provided no evidence, and all your arguments are filled with strongly negative connotated words like "ethnic cleansing," "genocide," and "war crimes" to fallaciously and disingenuously appeal to the emotions of the audience.
If you want to talk about war crimes and cleansing, include numbers, otherwise, you're not worth anyone's time.

war crimes the expulsion of these people is a bonus and not a problem.

So ethnic cleansing is a bonus now? Evicting these people in peacetime when they pose no serious problem or danger to anyone is nothing but immoral and in violation of the same codes of human conduct and conventions that you hold so dear. If you want to make an argument, have the courtesy to at least be consistent.

Similarly, Gaza and the West Bank are joined by only a thing corridor they don’t even control in the hypothetical peace deals of the past. Are you therefore arguing that Israel has to give up masses of land to a future Palestinian state to make them more secure? If not, why the hypocrisy?

A. I don't support a Palestinian state even in the practical, logistical, and economic sense(not just the moral and political one). I support a three-state solution with two new countries controlling Gaza and the Areas of Judea and Samaria. Or simply those areas I just mentioned being given to Egypt and Jordan respectively.
B. I think Israel shouldn't give land to any other of its neighbors because it has produced so much more for the world than any one of its neighbors. I think countries that innovate in areas like AI, defense, medicine, computers, and water supply should be rewarded, not punished. Especially if they are republican socially egalitarian nations.

Israelis are illegal settlers in the West Bank, they have no ownership of the land there.

Tell that to all the building waivers and landownership claims they signed and filled out to get that land.

This is one of the most agreed-upon points in all international politics.

International politics are completely and utterly irrelevant as to whether some families can own a house in the West Bank(IE, the international community has no say over an individual country's method of distributing land ownership). To say a citizen of their country can't build on the land of their country is absurd. I can build a house in Kaliningrad and that isn't a war crime. Just like I can make a house in Hebron and have that also not be a violation of international law.

You can’t legally own something that you’ve stolen by force.

Bring me one incident where Israeli settlers raided, and physically took over a Palestinian village or town where the Palestinians had legal rights to that land. I'll wait.

Great, so we agree that the Palestinians don’t need to give land to the Israelis

I don't want Palestinians to lose their homes in Nablus, Ramallah, and other Area A cities within the West Bank. And I think most Israelis don't want to either. Nobody is trying to force Palestinians out of their homes just because their Palestinian. And there has been no evidence of that. If this were the case, the Arab population would've been cleared long ago.
I seriously don't understand where this misconception of yours is coming from. Almost no Israeli wants to kick Palestinians from their homes in Nablus, Ramallah, and Gaza unless they're forced to. And the Israeli government certainly doesn't want to. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

When peace talks were a thing Fatah, not Hamas you seem to be confusing them

I haven't been. Fatah were also terrorists FYI.

were willing to accept the peace with Palestine only existing on the West Bank and Gaza.

Untrue, they rejected ownership of 92% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza because they want ALL of Israel. - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

The two sides never agreed but the Palestinians made offers that gave Israel much more than they had any legal entitlement to and these were still rejected.

See above. Seriously, you need to read a book.

The cause of decades of conflict is the occupation. Removing that removes the cause.

Do you seriously have no idea what the first 25 years of Israel's existence were?
Israel DIDN'T occupy anything and was still attacked. Their "occupation" showed the Arab world that they had teeth and that they could fight back.
The 1948 war, the Suez Crisis, the 6-day war, and the Fedayeen insurgency were major Israeli conflicts that began when Israel didn't hold anything.

Israeli's conflict isn't over occupation it subsided after Israel "occupied' some land it showed it could protect and defend that land.
I seriously don't understand how many people who talk about the Israeli-Arab conflict never even understand its history. Again... read a book, or at least study up on some facts.

war crimes against the Palestinian people

Owning a piece of land is not a war crime, get over it...

Firstly I’d like to say that in your post you literally advocate for and whitewash war crimes.

What specifically, which crimes, and when did I say that?

I hope that this is due to a lack of knowledge of the situation

I think saying Israel commits more war crimes than any other country on the planet. That Palestine was willing to accept a peace deal with the West Bank and Gaza while Israel wasn't. The occupation is the main source of the Israel-Arab conflict throughout its continuum. That Israel has a policy of ethnic cleansing despite having a faster-growing Arab population. Demonstrates that either you've gotten your facts from some inaccurate and random website online. You haven't researched them. Or you're outright lying. None of these are acceptable for serious debate.

Secondly, I have stated that Hamas’s actions are atrocious and Israel has a right to defend itself to stop them.

But yet you continue to insistently rant about Israeli occupation in a debate that is unrelated to the West Bank. Rather than the actual prompt.
Either you have dyslexia and can't read the prompt of this debate. Or you have an anti-Israel agenda.

Thirdly, the idea that the occupation is some unrelated point brought out as a distraction is gobsmacking.

Not when it becomes the entire topic of your argument(which it has, in case you didn't notice).

The occupation is the underlying reason for the decades of conflict and the very attacks that are taking place.

There would be terrorism with or without an "occupation." Just look at the Palestinian Fedayeen crisis, the war of attrition, and others to see that terrorism exists regardless of who controls Juda and Samaria. The fact of the matter is that Israeli ownership of the West Bank allows this terrorism to be more easily checked, and thus prevented, which is a good thing.