How should Israel respond to the attacks by Gaza?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Again...

Palestinians had 200,000 years to create a Palestinian state.  It's too late.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;I don't remember what you said about illegal immigration.

Thats right you dont remember and nor does any one else remember because I said totally nothing at all about illegal immigration as you very well know lier boy. In fact it was you who said it didn't you lier boy.

 So you are right about illegal labor hurting low skilled people's wages. The thing is though, there is no reason why an employer would hire someone with a prison record, 

Is that what you said. Yes it is. In fact you said it twice by lying about what I said about my work mates who are not illegal immigrants and do not have prison records. You total deceiving lier....you mean you conveniently dont remember do you lier boy so you can make up malicious liers about others you total low life.

Just like the total liers about kids being decapitated with your totally bogus videos and links that you posted. You are more than just totally sick. The totally offensive made up stuff you say against others is disgusting and vile.

Sonofason

Ampersand said:

@JulesKorngold

That there is no Palestinian state because the Palestinians are being denied their basic human rights, among them the right to self determination and to form a government, is kind of the very point that you seem to be missing.

Having a national state is not a human right.

Bogan

@piloteer

Piloteer quote  There are two kinds of people on this earth. Americans, and non-Americans. And as soon as an American concerns themselves with non-American collectivist principles, they too become non-American. 

I really had a lot of trouble figuring out what you meant by this statement?    I think it means that Americans should only concern themselves with Americans?    Well, I would agree to that up to a point.      The USA is still a member of the world community, and a very important member at that.    “Isolationism” did not stop your country being attacked and bombed in 1941.   

Piloteer quote      My "self declared enemy" is anyone who is willing to support taxing my family for the sake of any cause that doesn't actually benefit my family directly.

Muslims are your self declared enemy.    The Koran is full of instructions from Allah to kill non Muslims unless they convert to Islam.     Would you like me to post a few of them up?     Okay, how about……

“Fight the infidels who are near to you.     Lay ambushes for them, strike TERROR in their hearts”

Quran 8.12   Your Lord inspires the angels with the message, "I will TERRORISE the unbelievers.    Therefore, smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them.     Strike off their heads and each of their fingers and toes.

Quran 9:5: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

Quran 2:216: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you 

I could post a LOT more, but I think you get the idea?      Islam is an extremely dangerous “religion” which preaches hatred and terrorism towards non Muslims     It also preaches that Muslims should be aggressive towards non Muslims.     I take it that you are a non Muslim?     Okay bud, well guess what?     According to Islam, YOU are the enemy.    And that DECLARTION is in black and white script.    Why you stick up for the people who would  kill you if you don’t become Muslim, is something I would like you to answer?

 Piloteer.     I come first, not the world!!!!

Psychopaths think exactly like that.    Are you psychopathic?     If so, that would explain a lot.

 Piloteer quote       It wouldn't hurt me or my family if Jewish people could not "live together" as you claim they should and all want to (regardless of the fact that Judaism is practiced all around the world).

I have no idea how you misinterpreted my words to claim I said that all Jewish people should live together?   You are a very confused person.    No wonder you “think” like you do.

 Piloteer quote        This is true and I know it to be true because our family is currently doing just fine now, in this time when Jewish people are not living together in one country. It is not the responsibility of me or my family to ensure Jewish people feel safe and cozy and together in their own country. In fact, it is not me or my families responsibility to support anyone but ourselves. If they cannot fight for and gain freedom of their own accord, then they deserve NO freedom!!!!! 

 “Sovereign citizens” think like that.      Most people think that they are kooks.     Human beings are tribal and territorial.     If any alien spaceship landed on earth, the beings on that spaceship may wonder how a small creature like human beings, lacking teeth, horns, armour, beaks, claws, or talons, got to be the dominant species on planet earth?    We did it because humans instinctively band together to fight off any threats to the individual members of or tribe, regardless of whether they are two legged or four legged.    No man is an island, entire unto himself.     Humans need to belong to a greater community from whom they get protection and support.     But to gain acceptance from a community, you must more or less accept the values, attitudes, and behaviours of that community.

Piloteer quote   As far as countries who the US should support, ideally none is the correct answer, but if we had to, I fail to see why we would want to support a country that has no real economic benefit for the US. China, Saudi Arabia, Britain, hell even Canada if need be.

Well, the principle is, that democracies either stick together, or, like the countries in Europe who tried to remain neutral in WW2, they will get picked off, one by one.   Israel is a democracy.

Piloteer quote       Those are countries that have strong economic ties with the US. Britain, France (meh), and Canada are our strongest allies and it is those countries that should be considered first for any kind of economic or military support. But the best thing about those countries is they really don't need support, and that's OK in my book. 

These countries should not need US support but they do, because they bludge off the US taxpayers instead of spending the money they need on defense.      Britain had 1300 tanks in 1980 and 300 today.      Australia has a lousy 50 second hand tanks in our entire ferking army.    One US aircraft carrier has more combat aircraft than the entire Australian Air force.    Australia’s defense budget this year is AUS$35 billion,   Yet we squander AUS$ 40 billion a year on “aboriginal” welfare for no advancement, and most of the people who get that are not even full aboriginal.  The NATO standard for defense spending is 2% of GDP.     Prior to the Ukraine war, Germany only spent 1%.   Donald Trump, who I am sure you hate, warned the Germans to increase their defense spending and stop bludging off the USA.    He was right.

Piloteer quote      A true nationalist would not concern themselves with what Donald Trump thinks is a good global economic policy for the US because he's just another republicrat who has no plans of getting rid of our minimum wage requirements or ending social security.

I am definitely having trouble figuring out your political leanings?    At first, I though you were another young, educated neo Marxist?     But now you seem to be sprouting extreme right wing, sovereign citizen beliefs?

Piloteer quote  He and the so called republicans have done nothing to reverse the communist European policies that have been destroying my country since the 1930s.

 Donald Trump, a man you somehow think is your enemy, tried to do just that.     Which is why the Left and the corrupt US administration will do anything to stop him from running for President again.       You should be supporting Trump, not sneering at him.

 

Piloteer quote    No person who may know what Putin's d!ck tastes like can call  themselves any kind of self respecting nationalist, contrary to his claims that he is.   

 I have no idea what you are talking about?   Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine with a strong President like Donald Trump in office.     Putin invaded Ukraine because he knew that Biden was a seriously corrupt and senile old fool.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Ampersand

there is an absolute prohibition against annexing occupied territory

Then why only call out Israel for their annexations, but instead nearly every other nation on the globe? Since every nation has conquered territory, what makes Israel so special? I've already proven how it can't be occupation or illegal in the international sense because no other country is claiming it. You can't illegally occupy a territory if no other country claims that territory.

the Israeli government has no right to it in the first place.

I think they do if they own it. What other country has an international claim to the land? Palestine? It doesn't exist. Jordan? It already gave up ownership of the land to Israel back in the 90's.
I don't care much for these emotional and legalistic arguments about "rights to land." Might makes right, and that's why any country has the ability to take any piece of land.
Countries aren't people though, they don't have feelings, emotions, or desires. So they can't have rights, or inherent claims to land.

an illegal settler purchases some land in the West Bank from the Israeli government

The Israeli government controls that land so it can decide what constitutes an illegal settlement or not.
I'm sorry, but the UN and other international institutions have literally 0 authority on how a country manages the land properties of its citizenry.

Not only this but because Israel also demolished Palestinian homes

Because those settlements are usually built without permits, or destroyed during counter-terrorism operations.
I'm sorry, but if you don't have a legal claim to the land, the government will probably bulldoze your house. This works the same in many other countries. Israel is not special in this respect. And other countries like the USA, Russia, France, and China are in far greater violation of this "human right."

Let’s take an excerpt from Palestine Inside Out An Everyday Occupation by Saree Makdishi

I don't have to read a secondary source when I already have the primary source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ_neE0gQUY
I don't approve of settler violence. And I think that Israel should start cracking down on it. But I think that it should be remembered that this violence sprung from after decades of terrorist attacks and riots from Palestinian cities swept onto Israeli settlements in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.
You often speak of cause and effect, and that the Israeli "occupation" led to the events we have seen in the past couple of days and other terrorist attacks. However, settler violence has been the cause of decades of Palestinian terrorism and two intifadas. So by your logic, is settler violence understandable, and caused by Palestinians, not Israelis?

They are kept in a life of suffering where they have one of the worst qualities of life found anywhere on the planet.

They have fostered a culture of terrorism and anti-Semitism for the past 55 years. And have focused so much on the destruction of Israel that they have barely focused on improving their own society.

B’tselem (an Israeli NGO) has for instance found (http://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files2/publication/200705_utterly_forbidden_eng.pdf):

Those people who are usually subject to the interrogation mentioned in the report are people directly responsible for terrorist attacks. With a much smaller percentage being used on suspected terrorists. 
Only Senior Detainees were actually subject to harsh interrogation methods. And even then, the interrogation methods mentioned were used rarely, and probably only in extreme cases. Even then, I don't hold sympathy for "senior detainees" as known terrorists. And I don't think Israel should hold back in its interrogation if Israeli civilian's lives are at stake.

From your own report:
"Accordingly, this report focuses mainly on an examination of the ways and frequency in which Israel violates the right of Palestinian detainees suspected of terrorist activity to be free from torture and ill-treatment."
Israel doesn't arbitrarily torture random Palestinian civilians as you seem to suggest. Rather, it only uses torture methods in a few select cases of known terrorists. Israel is at war with terrorism, and in this respect, I think Israel is justified in its use of torture. Especially since the torture mentioned in the report isn't exactly severe in comparison to other cases of torture in the world(like Abu Ghraib and Islamist torture practices).

And of course people detained and tortured are regularly detained without trial

Because they're terrorists subject to Israeli military law. Israel is at war with terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza, and so suspected and known terrorists will and should be detained without trial.
I've already demonstrated how torture is a rare occurrence, and even when it is used, the methods employed are not nearly as severe as torture in other countries. Israelis don't waterboard, they don't rape, they don't severely beat their detainees. And they especially don't do these things to civilians.

(http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf)

Your report specifically talks about civilian casualties during the 2008-2009 Gaza war. Although it doesn't even give a number on the number of intentional civilian deaths by Israeli forces. So it can't speak on the proportion of intentional civilian deaths versus unintentional civilian deaths.
Furthermore, Israel took a multitude of precautions to avoid civilian deaths. 
Once the campaign began, Israel also distributed hundreds of thousands of leaflets and used its intelligence on cell phone networks in Gaza to issue warnings to civilians, including phone calls to some families in high-risk areas and families of Hamas personnel. 
It developed small 10-20 kilogram bombs that could be used as both warning shots – sometimes referred to a ―knocking on the roof‖ 
If Israel's policy was to kill as many civilians as possible, then why would they warn them to evacuate the area, send phone calls urging Palestinians to leave high-risk areas, or send warning bombs to encourage civilians to evacuate buildings? 
Seriously, your argument that Israel tries to kill as many civilians as possible pales in the face of the fact that Israel probably takes more precautions than any other country in the world to AVOID civilian casualties.

However, these attempts to avoid civilian casualties pale in comparison to Hamas's use of human shields. During the 2009 Gaza war, Hamas soldiers disguised themselves as civilians, rather than wearing military uniforms. Meaning that while Israel was trying to take methods to avoid civilian deaths, Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups were taking methods to encourage it, by encouraging Israeli soldiers to mistake Palestinian civilians for terrorists. 
Reports on the military operations by NGOs suggest that in general members of Palestinian armed groups did not wear military uniforms. One report states that after the destruction caused by the Israeli air strikes at the start of the military operations, members of al Qassam Brigades abandoned military dress and patrolled streets “in civilian clothes”.337 A second report states that members of the Palestinian armed groups “also mixed with the civilian population, although this would be difficult to avoid in the small and overcrowded Gaza Strip, and there is no evidence that they did so with the intent of shielding themselves”. 

Hamas also regularly used human shields to protect themselves, such as attacking Israeli troops from and around schools and other public buildings. For example, an Israeli attack that killed 30 civilians around a UN school was caused by Hamas effectively using the school as cover while firing mortars at Israeli troops.
While Israel tries its best to avoid civilian casualties, Palestinian groups like Hamas do their best to encourage civilian casualties. Even then, Israel is not perfect, and attacks have been accidentally made against civilian areas and NGO buildings. In such cases, those responsible were prosecuted such as in the case of an Israel bombardment onto a UNRWA compound.
Overall Israel did not intentionally attack civilians, while Hamas deliberately put them in Harm's way. (http://https//www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html)

Ultimately the driving force in the conflict is the continual war crimes committed against the entire populace of the OPT.

No, it isn't...
Seriously, just read a book, watch a video, or at least learn some history.
The entire issue of this conflict is that the Arabs within Israel and the surrounding countries have never been able to tolerate a Jewish presence in the land. Looking so far back as the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, and the 1929 Hebron and Jaffa riots, Arabs have continually taken violence in opposition to Jews living in the region of Palestine. The 1936 Arab revolt, the 1948 War of Independence, the 1950s Fedayeen insurgency, the 1956 Suez crisis, the 1967 six-day war, the war of attrition, etc... These conflicts have all occurred without any Israeli control of Judea and Samaria, and Gaza. Ultimately, the driving force in the conflict isn't the Israeli control of Judea and Samaria. That is only a small part of the wider conflict. Were Israel to withdraw completely from the West Bank, there wouldn't be any peace. Because those terrorists in the West Bank aren't attacking Israel because they only want the West Bank, but because they want all of Israel to be under Arab control. Arab leaders have repeatedly attempted to delegitimize a Jewish claim to Palestine(such as Abass claiming Jews are eastern European Khazars). Thereby demonstrating their opposition to Israel not just controlling the West Bank, but Israel existing in general.
This sentiment of Arab opposition has existed for 103+ years and is itself the driving point of the entire conflict. Not the recent "occupation" over the past 56 years of Judea and Samaria. The whole issue of the conflict is that it is a battle between Zionism and Arab nationalism, and their contrary claims to the land of Israel.
Go read a book, please...

Israeli/Palestinian conflict will never be resolved until Israel ends its apartheid system

If Israel is apartheid, why was there a Palestinian party in the 2021 Israeli government? I doubt South Africa would've allowed a black party into power back in its apartheid days...

While the current PM of Israel has bragged about ruining the peace accords with Palestine

What ruined the Oslo Accords was the Palestinian-initiated terror wave known as the second intifada. Not Bibi.

https://www.haaretz.com/2010-07-15/ty-article/tricky-bibi/0000017f-dc84-d3a5-af7f-feae8a9e0000

Your article doesn't even talk about any specific peace deals, so it's irrelevant. Get over it...

Fatah have offered numerous peace deals that offer Israel more than they are legally due

Fatah offered only one peace deal by their own initiative (In 2014) since their rejection of the generous Israeli peace deal back in 2000. Israel has already recognized a Palestinian state as late as 2009. And went so far as to freeze settlement building the same year to show solidarity with peace for both Palestinians and Israelis. (source)
In fact, in 2010(which was a set of peace talks like the Oslo Accords), Abbas refused(earlier the same year he also called for Arab states to go to war with Israel, which isn't helpful for peace) to negotiate with Israel at first, demonstrating that, unlike Israel, Palestinians have never been eager to negotiate peace with Israel.
Do you also mind specifying which specific peace deals you are referring to?

compromising on land and refugees to try and make it enticing to Israel.

No, they haven't, Abbas's last peace plan in 2014 with Israel failed precisely because they weren't willing to give up a single inch of the West Bank, and demanded all of it, including East Jerusalem. Palestinians have never been willing to compromise, which explains why they[Fatah] rejected Ehud Barak's offer of 95% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza back in 2000. These negotiations failed because Palestinians were never able to compromise over refugees, Jerusalem, or settlements.

MineSubCraftStarved

@ZeusAres42

it doesn't necessarily mean the entirety of Gaza's population aligns with Hamas's decisions or actions

I doubt that. The population of Gaza elected Hamas in the first place, and they have taken pretty much no actions to get rid of them since. Hamas, meanwhile, has taken a campaign of radicalization by training child soldiers, and by posting and creating pro-Hamas and anti-Israeli cartoons, art, speech's, and other forms of propaganda.
However, I think that given Hama's endless wars with Israel, has led to the great lowering of the QOL in the Gaza strip. Which has in turn probably eroded a significant a percentage of their support from the Palestinian people.
Although in the following image, you can see that most Gazans probably support Hamas and other terror groups like the PIJ and Nasser Salah.
 - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/Screenshot%202023-10-10%20175617.png
The point I'm trying to make is that Hamas's support is large, but not overwhelming. But those that support Hamas are probably so radicalized that they would pose a serious threat to Israeli security. Meaning that Israel would probably be forced evict the population following their pacification of Hamas.

I think that regardless of the impacts on the rest of the region, the expulsion of the population of Gaza will probably be best for Israel, and so it should undertake such an action.
This is collective punishment, there is no getting around that. But in certain cases, collective punishment is allowed. Particularly during war time(which is collective punishment by itself).
Hamas, with the support of most of the Gaza strip attacked Israel, killing, raping and assaulting over a 1000 civilians, including babies, girls, women, and children.

From the moral standpoint, I don't sympathize with Hamas for their terror attacks. And I don't sympathize with the Gazan people as their support for Hamas in part enabled this attack. Just like I don't sympathize with Nazi refugees who were evicted from Poland and Czechoslovakia during the second world war.
Even if the majority, or a large section of the Gazan people opposed Hamas, they made no attempt to oppose them or kick them out in over 16 years. Now they have to suffer the consequences of their inaction.

From a practical standpoint, the Gazan people pose a serious threat to Israeli national security if left to their own devices. As seen by their cycle of violence stretching as far back as 1987. The Gazan people will never accept living under Israeli occupation, or to live near a thriving Jewish state. Israel's best option is to evict a population that poses a major national security threat. An option that is well justified throughout earlier precedents, such as the expulsion of 10+ million Germans during WW2.
There also comes the issue of terrorists. Hamas has in the past, and will probably infiltrate into the civilian populace by wearing civilian clothing and attire as it has done in the past. Therefore, Gaza will probably still have a substantial terrorist population even after it's war with Israel, so a full clearing of Gaza is required to fully stop Hamas.

Gaza is a resisting population fighting against Israel, whose civilian population is fully opposed to the state of Israel, and is in majority support of Hamas. Israel is therefore justified in evicting the population of Gaza given that it actively opposes Israel's existence and national security.

Dee

@MineSubCraftStarved

Poor old MSC back after nearly a year after he posted up the very same nonsense painting the state of Israel out to be peace loving humanists when the goal has always been the total elimination of the state of Palestine a vision first put in place by the scum bucket Ben Gurion......On March 10, 1948, the Zionist Haganah paramilitary adopted Plan Dalet, which laid out a strategy to ethnically cleanse Palestine. A month later, in the village of Deir Yassin, Zionist militias killed more than 100 men, women and children — one of several massacres that served to terrorise Palestinians.

MayCaesar

The idea of the groups' ability to create a separate state being a "right" does not seem to be sensible to me. "Rights" only apply to individuals and their actions; "rights" of a collective is a misnomer. Now, a group of individuals can voluntarily and unanimously decide to create a set of rules all members of it are willing to abide by. But that is very different from formation of a new state, when a small group of people comprising the new government imposes its rules on the rest of the population within a certain area.

I do not think that any political group in Catalonia should be able to issue a referendum that, if successful, would lead to secession of Catalonia from Spain: the fact that the majority of people have consented to it does not imply that everyone has, and those who have not are now going to be citizens of the state they never willingly joined or were born in. That is quite different from the regular democratic process which, while also coercive, at least preserves the general constitutional framework.

That is not to say that secession is never justified... It certainly is not justified in cases when the government in the newly born state is comprised of religious fanatics though. If Palestine truly becomes independent and is run fully by Fatah and Hamas, women will be covered with burqas in no time. There is virtually no metric by which Palestine would do better was Israel to completely remove its presence from it, let alone remove itself from the face of the Earth.

Bogan

MSCS quote   Then why only call out Israel for their annexations, but instead nearly every other nation on the globe? Since every nation has conquered territory, what makes Israel so special? I've already proven how it can't be occupation or illegal in the international sense because no other country is claiming it. You can't illegally occupy a territory if no other country claims that territory.

 Good point.   “Palestine” was never “a country”, it had always been the conquered province of a Great Power.    The west Bank was a part of Jordon, but when you are fighting an enemy bent upon your total destruction, the other side can not complain if they attack you with the deliberate intent to wipe your new country off the face of the earth, (with the sort of consequences to the Israeli population as we say on October 7), and you take some of their territory.    As for the UN, we all know how corrupted it has been and how most of it’s totalitarian leaders side with totalitarian Muslim leaders to hate Israel.

MSCS quote   I think they do if they own it. What other country has an international claim to the land? Palestine? It doesn't exist. Jordan? It already gave up ownership of the land to Israel back in the 90's.   I don't care much for these emotional and legalistic arguments about "rights to land." Might makes right, and that's why any country has the ability to take any piece of land.   Countries aren't people though, they don't have feelings, emotions, or desires. So they can't have rights, or inherent claims to land.

 You do own if If you claim it and you have soldiers all over it who are prepared to die to keep it.    This is the Realpolitic of every border in the world.

 MSCS quote  .    I'm sorry, but if you don't have a legal claim to the land, the government will probably bulldoze your house.     

 Governments everywhere have the right to reclaim private property in the nations interest, after paying a fair and reasonable market price for that land.      

 

MSCS quote   They have fostered a culture of terrorism and anti-Semitism for the past 55 years.    

So did Mohammad and the entire Muslim world for 1400 years.. 

MSCS quote    And have focused so much on the destruction of Israel that they have barely focused on improving their own society.

 They can not “improve” their country as Gaza is not a viable economic entity.     It’s income comes from either the UN, which is getting fed up of bankrolling Gaza’s economy, only to see the Gazans attack Israel again and have the Israelis blow it all up again.     Gaza’s only economic model is terrorism against Israel.     Israel is an abomination to the Islamic world for the sole reason that the once conquered Jews have returned to take control of a land once conquered by Islam.

MSCS quote  Those people who are usually subject to the interrogation mentioned in the report are people directly responsible for terrorist attacks. With a much smaller percentage being used on suspected terrorists.    Israel doesn't arbitrarily torture random Palestinian civilians as you seem to suggest. Rather, it only uses torture methods in a few select cases of known terrorists. Israel is at war with terrorism, and in this respect, I think Israel is justified in its use of torture.

 Torturing POW’s is exactly like every other war crime.     If one side routinely does it, there is no obligation of the other side to play fair.      Of course, one side may choose to take a moral position and play fair anyway, but regardless of what fat chair bound diplomats far away from a war zone claim, that decision rests with the nation which must act in it’s best interests for it’s own survival.     In such a case, torturing prisoners to gain vital information becomes a practical military necessity.      The only way it should be condemned is if both sides play clean and somebody breaks the rule. 

  

MSCS quote     Especially since the torture mentioned in the report isn't exactly severe in comparison to other cases of torture in the world(like Abu Ghraib and Islamist torture practices).

 You are probably not aware of it, but serious psychological studies have shown, that unless jailers are specially trained and rigorously overseen, cruelty by guards towards prisoners is usually the outcome.     The US guards at Abu Ghraib prison were simply National Guard troops with no special training in the duties of a POW camp guard.    In addition, they were left to run the prison in any way they wished without any real leadership monitoring their behaviour, while their prisoners did everything, they could to rev up the guards.     What resulted was predictable and inevitable.

 

MSCS quote    I've already demonstrated how torture is a rare occurrence, and even when it is used, the methods employed are not nearly as severe as torture in other countries. Israelis don't waterboard, they don't rape, they don't severely beat their detainees. And they especially don't do these things to civilians.

 I read a book (no, I can’t remember the name of it) where a Polish soldier spent the war either fighting for the Wehrmacht or fighting for the Red Army.     He had been captured and tortured by the Germans, Russians, Americans, and the British.     His opinion, was that the British were the nicest torturers, as “at least they stopped every now and again to have a cup of tea.”

MSCS quote   If Israel's policy was to kill as many civilians as possible, then why would they warn them to evacuate the area, send phone calls urging Palestinians to leave high-risk areas, or send warning bombs to encourage civilians to evacuate buildings? 

 Israel has never deliberately targeted civilian areas.  But they will attack military targets within civilian areas which HAMAS uses as a human shield.   HAMAS knows this and that is why they are using their own people as human shields to try and prevent the Israelis from wiping parts of Gaza right off the map.    The Israelis have issued the warnings that they know the Gazans will not comply with because HAMAS will not let them leave.    Either way, they are going to bomb and shell a lot of civilian areas knowing full well that Gazan non combatants are still there.    The Israelis have issued the warnings, and can now wash their hands of the human catastrophe which will ensue.     The blame for this lies entirely with HAMAS.

MSCS quote   The entire issue of this conflict is that the Arabs within Israel and the surrounding countries have never been able to tolerate a Jewish presence in the land. Looking so far back as the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, and the 1929 Hebron and Jaffa riots, Arabs have continually taken violence in opposition to Jews living in the region of Palestine. The 1936 Arab revolt, the 1948 War of Independence, the 1950s Fedayeen insurgency, the 1956 Suez crisis, the 1967 six-day war, the war of attrition, etc... These conflicts have all occurred without any Israeli control of Judea and Samaria, and Gaza. 

 Islam can not live under any other system other than it’s own.     Islam is intolerant of all other religions and will always seek to dominate.    This will become a serious issue in every western country stu-pid enough to allow Muslim immigration.     

Dee

@MayCaesar.

 If Palestine truly becomes independent and is run fully by Fatah and Hamas, women will be covered with burqas in no time

Fair point but as much as I detest such practices what if its what the people want?

We had hundreds of years of religiously driven nonsense over here in Northern Ireland if people identify in such a way and claim its part of their culture what are you to do?  

. There is virtually no metric by which Palestine would do better was Israel to completely remove its presence from it, let alone remove itself from the face of the Earth.

From our perspective yes, what about from their perspective? 

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Baby Killing is wrong

I know that some Democrat congresspersons aren't willing to say that chopping up babies is morally wrong, but it is.  We know that many leftists have a pro-baby killing mentality anyway - supporting abortion from conception through birth, and some afterwards, as evidenced by their 'no' vote for the Born Alive Abortion Survivors Act which would have required that a child born alive after a botched abortion receive immediate medical attention as any other child at that gestational age would be entitled.  

Yet, it did surprise me at how many leftists on college campuses and at pro Hamas rallies actually argued that the baby killers where the good guys.  I believe that we should protect rather than kill innocent human life as some leftists have argued that it is good to do.  

How can anyone say it is a good thing to burn, shoot or butcher a baby as Hamas did?  NSFW images of these atrocities here.  No doubt pro-Hamas and pro-baby killing will just deny that the atrocities happened rather than deal with the fact that they support the killing of innocent human lives.

jack

anarchist100 said:

Unfortunately they won't be ignored, because as we all know, jews are very easily offended to the point of irrationality.

-------

Oh dear, it seems that I hates jews, I wonder why the French, Germans and Irish haven't caught on that I hate them too. Must not be very smart.

Hello a:

Lemme see..  Do the people who support Jews say sh*t about 'em???  Uhhh, NO they don't.

Fu*ck off

excon

Bogan

Just-sayin quote   How can anyone say it is a good thing to burn, shoot or butcher a baby as Hamas did?  NSFW images of these atrocities here.  No doubt pro-Hamas and pro-baby killing will just deny that the atrocities happened rather than deal with the fact that they support the killing of innocent human lives.

 One good outcome from this HAMAS invasion is that it is causing liberal, educated young Jews to reassess their liberal values.     The USA’s ivy league universities that sprout neo-Marxist views have a very high proportion of young Jews in them, so I would assume that much of the anti Trump and pro Marxist rhetoric emanating from these universities has the support of young Jews.    You only need look at our resident Jewish troll “jacks” opinions to see that in black and white.  

There have always been anti-Jewish sentiments among extreme right-wing groups because initially, Jewish intellectuals were very prominent among Marxist leaders, and Jews were prominent among the USA’s Civil Rights movement.    Here in Australia, Jewish leaders have always supported the importation of “refugees: regardless of what serious social effects that the importation of unassimilable people has had on Australian society.  

But right-wing hostility towards Jews today pales into insignificance compared to the plain, outright anti Semitism of today’s Left.      How young neo Marxist Jews cope with this hostility from their own class comrades is an interesting question?

just_sayin

Bogan said:

Just-sayin quote   How can anyone say it is a good thing to burn, shoot or butcher a baby as Hamas did?  NSFW images of these atrocities here.  No doubt pro-Hamas and pro-baby killing will just deny that the atrocities happened rather than deal with the fact that they support the killing of innocent human lives.

 One good outcome from this HAMAS invasion is that it is causing liberal, educated young Jews to reassess their liberal values.     The USA’s ivy league universities that sprout neo-Marxist views have a very high proportion of young Jews in them, so I would assume that much of the anti Trump and pro Marxist rhetoric emanating from these universities has the support of young Jews.    You only need look at our resident Jewish troll “jacks” opinions to see that in black and white.  

There have always been anti-Jewish sentiments among extreme right-wing groups because initially, Jewish intellectuals were very prominent among Marxist leaders, and Jews were prominent among the USA’s Civil Rights movement.    Here in Australia, Jewish leaders have always supported the importation of “refugees: regardless of what serious social effects that the importation of unassimilable people has had on Australian society.  

But right-wing hostility towards Jews today pales into insignificance compared to the plain, outright anti Semitism of today’s Left.      How young neo Marxist Jews cope with this hostility from their own class comrades is an interesting question?

I agree with you.  The Democrat party has a serious anti-Semitism issue going on.  Just about every member of the Congressional Black Caucasus, including Barrack Obama, have had their picture taken with Black supremacist and mega anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan.  That would be the equivalent of a Republican congressperson having his picture taken with the Grand Wizard of the KKK.  The media give the Democrat party a pass on its antisemitism.  Seriously, Tlaib was unable to respond to a question if she condoned Hamas cutting babies heads off and she couldn't say it was wrong to cut babies heads off.  I seriously think they need to attend a "How not to be evil 101' class. 

A big difference that I see between the right and left in its Jew hatred is that extremist right-wingers who hate Jews are a small minority openly condemned for their Jew hatred, whereas Jew hatred is a central part of Democrat Party leadership: the Squad,  the Congressional Black Caucasus, Antifa, BLM, and campus leftists. .  

Bogan

@just_sayin ;   I agree with you. 

Then you are obviously a very intelligent person.

Ampersand

@Sonofason

The right to self-determination which includes the right to determine their political status is literally article 1 of both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. They literally do have the right to form a state as a human right.

piloteer

JulesKorngold said:

Palestinians had 200,000 years to create a Palestinian state.  It's too late.

I get the feeling that if the US had supported a Palestinian state rather than a Jewish state, Palestine would be just as powerful as Isreal is now. Isreal needed to take gargantuan amounts of money from foreign countries to prop themselves up, mainly from the US. As an American, I shouldn't be on the hook to pay for some other countries freedom and soviergnty. If they cannot do it alone, they don't actually deserve freedom or soviergnty. 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Ampersand
And what defines a group that want's self determination? If me and a couple friends decided to form our own state in the middle of France, would we be allowed to as a national group with a national sense of self-determination?

I used to believe in the argument of national self-determination(particularly in regards to Israel). But I now see the argument as unconvincing since any group can claim themselves as an ethnic group with deterministic asperations. I'm sure there are many in Bavaria who call themselves Bavarians, and support the creation of a Bavarian state from Germany. But they aren't entitled to it any more than people who call themselves Germans are to it.
I think that if some group wants a state, they can fight for it. But they should also be expected that their enemy will also fight back. Essentially might makes right.

But from an outside perspective, whether or not some group morally deserves a state depends greatly on context.
Essentially, the whole Palestinian national asperation of statehood was created only in the 70's and 80's by the Soviets, PLO, and Arab League to contest the Jewish claim to the land.
Essentially, Palestinian national asperation has only exists, and will exist on the flimsy foundation of total and utter opposition to Jewish nationhood.
Which makes Palestinian self-determination(and the concept of Palestinians in general) especially toxic. It exists only to hurt Jews.

Also, why didn't you respond to my last argument?

MayCaesar

Ironically, the only possible case of true self-determination - secession of the individual from the state - is not considered a right. It would make a lot more sense if a Palestinian could say, "I am not a subject to either Israeli or Palestine law; leave my land alone", than if a bunch of politicians with goons with guns in their pocket said, "We are 'seceding' from Israel. Naturally, any Palestinian who objects will be jailed"- which is how so-called self-determination happens in practice.

We, of course, can recall Crimea. It self-determined alright. We will just ignore all the tanks involved in the process. People voted on a referendum, after all, so...

Barnardot

@Bogan ;How can anyone say it is a good thing to burn, shoot or butcher a baby as Hamas did?  

They cant because there is no evidence of Hamas killing babies what so ever and the link that you posted was fake.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Seriously, Tlaib was unable to respond to a question if she condoned Hamas cutting babies heads off

And seriously you know very well why as the evidence was presented to you.

And seriously the links you posted were fake and offensive as you very well know and were explained clearly why.

And seriously there is not one single bit of evidence any where that Hamas cut of babies heads except in your sick head.

And seriously most descent civilized people must wonder how lying deceiving offensive people like you actually sleep at night.

Bogan

@Barnardot ;    How can anyone say it is a good thing to burn, shoot or butcher a baby as Hamas did? 

That was "just-sayin", not me, dickhead.    Learn to read.     And spell.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Barnardot

They cant because there is no evidence of Hamas killing babies what so ever and the link that you posted was fake.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/12/40-israeli-babies-beheaded-by-hamas/

Bogan

Bogan

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;Seriously, Tlaib was unable to respond to a question if she condoned Hamas cutting babies heads off

And seriously you know very well why as the evidence was presented to you.

And seriously the links you posted were fake and offensive as you very well know and were explained clearly why.

And seriously there is not one single bit of evidence any where that Hamas cut of babies heads except in your sick head.

And seriously most descent civilized people must wonder how lying deceiving offensive people like you actually sleep at night.

Democrat congresswoman Tlaib, when asked if she condoned the chopping off of babies heads, could have responded "I don't know if that is true, but if it is, I don't condone it."  Instead, she had a moral dilemma about saying its wrong to cut babies heads off.  

The link I posted was from Israel's twitter and the images are legitimate.  You can lie and say they are fake, but they are not.  @Minesubcraftstarved provided the Snopes link for you which does affirm that Hamas shot, burned and butchered babies and children.  Note, that  Israel posted the images, only after others had posted them.  

If the claim about cutting babies heads off is proven to be false, I'll gladly retract it.  None of the reporters who claim to have seen the photos, not the IBF have said that the reports are false.  It is unlikely that the IBF will release the images due to Israel's beliefs about the disrespecting the dead.  

No one is fooled by your dishonest claims that Hamas did not shoot, burn and butcher with knives and axes, children and babies.  Leftists are constantly caught in their lies.  For example, the Jew hater, Rashida Tlaib was called out for posting a fake image she said was of Palestinian children killed by Israel.  Instead the image was of babies killed by Asaad in 2013.  

https://twitter.com/KareemRifai/status/1713274561804828817

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;The link I posted was from Israel's twitter and the images are legitimate. 

Stop twisting things a round Lier Boy. You know very well what the is and for the 3rd time it was the timing of the video and that there was a time stamp 2 days after woods. Comprhhendaz. No proberly not. Your going to keep making circular arguments that have nothing to do with the argument.

If the claim about cutting babies heads off is proven to be false, I'll gladly retract it. 

Thats the talk of a real scum bag. Only if it is proven false then eh. And how is any body going to prove something that never happened. And even if it did what gives you the right to make a sick claim when you have admitted right here that it is unproven. What a complete nut case. 

Dee

@Barnardot

2  days after woods

ROFLMAO

piloteer

@Bogan

Leave it to an Australian to have absolutely no concept of individualism. All I got out of your argument was the typical foreign b!tching and moaning about how Americans are self centered and mean. Waa????. Americans are not supposed to care anyway. We are supposed to be an individualistic capitalist society. The Apex principle of the US is greed. Foreigners only understand collectivism, therefore they are nothing more than chattel who do not deserve any kind of liberty. Not only is it not the responsibility of Americans to help foreigners gain liberty, but it's actually in our best interest to ensure their suffering.      

All every non-American country really represents for the US is potential real estate for American citizens if we run out of space in our country. It's possible someday that the US may not have the space for all of its citizens. You can go on believing the US will be diplomatic about it, but we are a global economic and military superpower, and if we're going to be that powerful, we may as well use our might if needed. Foreign countries will need to be seized and the population of those countries will need to be removed or dealt with by other means to make space for Americans. 

I'm sorry if I'm from a country that actually matters, and you are only from Australia. I understand your frustration, but we aren't going to subdue our dominance over everyone just for the sake of a sociology temper tantrum from an Australian.   

I'm not sure what "world community" you are talking about, and I also don't care. The US is the only valid country in the world anyway. There's nothing in the US constitution that says American citizens are responsible for being global enforcers of liberty or peace, or whatever commie cause you want to throw at me. In fact, there's nothing in the US constitution that says the US needs to abide by "international laws" at all.            

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;The link I posted was from Israel's twitter and the images are legitimate. 

Stop twisting things a round Lier Boy. You know very well what the is and for the 3rd time it was the timing of the video and that there was a time stamp 2 days after woods. Comprhhendaz. No proberly not. Your going to keep making circular arguments that have nothing to do with the argument.

If the claim about cutting babies heads off is proven to be false, I'll gladly retract it. 

Thats the talk of a real scum bag. Only if it is proven false then eh. And how is any body going to prove something that never happened. And even if it did what gives you the right to make a sick claim when you have admitted right here that it is unproven. What a complete nut case. 

MineSubCraftStarved Snopes link.  It pretty much called you as a teller of lies.  You aren't seriously claiming that Hamas did not shoot, burn and butcher babies and children are you?  That's a pretty brazen lie.

I have no problem apologizing if the claim of babies getting their heads cut off is false.  No one has retracted their reporting though.  For instance, the Jerusalem Post said: “The Jerusalem Post can now confirm based on verified photos of the bodies that the reports of babies being burnt and decapitated in Hamas’s assault on Kfar Aza are correct.”  They have not retracted that claim:

https://twitter.com/jerusalem_post/status/1712460425529372821

The i24 news reporter who first reported the story is still standing by her story.  See 

Journalist slams doubts about her reporting of beheaded Israeli children: ‘I wish it wasn’t true’

The international war correspondent who first revealed Hamas’ beheading of Israeli children stood by her reporting Wednesday while recalling some of the atrocities she saw with her “own eyes” as doubts arose on social media.

i24News reporter Nicole Zedeck slammed people who questioned her reporting that 40 babies and young children were slaughtered — with some decapitated — at a kibbutz near the Gaza border on Tuesday.

“I witnessed some of those scenes with my own eyes as we were walking through this community that may be a quarter of a mile from the Gaza border, the atrocities that were still left behind, children, cribs, baby cribs overturned on their side, splattered with blood,” she said on “The Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Show.”

So they are standing by their stories.  Again are you seriously denying that Hamas shot, burned and butchered children and babies?  

Bogan

@piloteer

Piloteer quote   Leave it to an Australian to have absolutely no concept of individualism.

Thank you, thank you, for that racist quote denigrating Australians.     That quote will go into your “PIloteer Clangers” file, and if you ever come back on DebateIsland and start whining about racism, I will drag it out and fling it back in your face.

 

Piloteer quote       All I got out of your argument was the typical foreign b!tching and moaning about how Americans are self centered and mean. Waa????.

Well. That means that as usual, you got it all wrong.

 

Piloteer quote      Americans are not supposed to care anyway. We are supposed to be an individualistic capitalist society.

What I am trying to do, is figure out your ideology?    I thought that you were either a loony lefty, or another young, diplomaed elitist like Dreamer who thinks that the sun shines out of his chosen class of pseudo aristocrat elitists arse.       But now I think that you are some kind of right wing isolationist?    Are you are sovereign citizen?  

 

Piloteer quote The Apex principle of the US is greed. Foreigners only understand collectivism, therefore they are nothing more than chattel who do not deserve any kind of liberty.

 You are correct, although putting it that way is extreme and unkind.      Collectivists think that individuals should suppress their natural self interests for the collective interests of the group.     Free market capitalist societies know that self interest is the driving force of enterprise, invention, and economic success.    However, western culture has always tried to moderate self interest of the individual, because an entirely self interested individual is of no use to the group.     Knowing where self interest should end, and where group interest begins, is the mark of a mature adult. 

 

Piloteer quote       Not only is it not the responsibility of Americans to help foreigners gain liberty, but it's actually in our best interest to ensure their suffering.   

You are not correct for many reasons.      If democracies do not stick together, then the example of WW2 will arise again, where those European countries which tried to stay neutral were eventually were picked off, one by one, by totalitarian states like Italy and Germany.      Russia today is a Nazi state attempting to re establish it’s old colonial empire.     30 NATO nations oppose Russia, and some of these countries were forced allies of the USSR, who were only allied to the USSR because of Russian bayonets.    Now, NATO is 32 culturally akin countries, which have banded together to aid a non NATO member who does not want to become a colonial conquest of Russia again.   It is not in the collective interests of those 32 countries for an aggressive and expansionist state like Russia to become stronger, and then expand again.     

THE USA was isolationist in 1941 and a fat lot of good it did them.   Today, they know that strong alliances with culturally akin nations are the key staring down powerful totalitarian states like Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran.    The USA has a lot of friends around the world.     The four totalitarian states have no friends except each other, and they are the sorts of “friends:” which make you prefer your enemies.      

   
Piloteer quote       All every non-American country really represents for the US is potential real estate for American citizens if we run out of space in our country. It's possible someday that the US may not have the space for all of its citizens. You can go on believing the US will be diplomatic about it, but we are a global economic and military superpower, and if we're going to be that powerful, we may as well use our might if needed. Foreign countries will need to be seized and the population of those countries will need to be removed or dealt with by other means to make space for Americans. 

You are claiming that the US needs to invade and conquer other countries in order to find room for it’s citizens?     Interesting theory.    Never heard that one before.   Putin thinks like you do.  

  

Piloteer quote       I'm sorry if I'm from a country that actually matters, and you are only from Australia.

That’s okay, mate.    No need to apologise for the fact that the USA is much more important and powerful than Australia.  If you are trying to rev me up, then nice try, but it won’t work.  

 

Piloteer quote   I understand your frustration, but we aren't going to subdue our dominance over everyone just for the sake of a sociology temper tantrum from an Australian.   

I am not frustrated at all.    I am curious as to how a person such as yourself came to believe such wacky ideas?    I presume that your ideas are just over the top as a way of being sarcastic?     Or do you really think that way?  

 

Piloteer quote         I'm not sure what "world community" you are talking about, and I also don't care. The US is the only valid country in the world anyway.

The USA is the world’s oldest, largest, and once richest democracy, so it is an important member of the world community of nations.    Many nations look up to the USA, although it has become a class fashion among the young western bourgeoise to always denigrate it.    

 

Piloteer quote       There's nothing in the US constitution that says American citizens are responsible for being global enforcers of liberty or peace,….

 No there is not.    But a democratically elected government can choose to be the world’s policeman if it wishes to do so.    Many people around the world are grateful to the Americans for that.    But the problem is, too many of the people that your nation protects not only sneer at the USA behind it’s back, they know that they can bludge on financing their own defense, in the belief that if the sheet hits the fan, the yanks will come and save them.     Trump was right again.  

 

Piloteer quote  ……..or whatever commie cause you want to throw at me.  

I am neither a right wing socialist nor a left wing socialist.    I am a person who defends democracy, because democratic countries are peaceful countries.   Wars are always between totalitarian states, or between democracies and totalitarian states.   They are never between democratic states.   Even Britain, France, and Germany, who were at each others throats for centuries, today are friends because they are culturally akin democracies.

 

Piloteer quote       In fact, there's nothing in the US constitution that says the US needs to abide by "international laws" at all.   

I agree with you.    But two things should be considered.    The first, is that this planet is the only one we have, so finding agreement as to what a nations self interest should be, and where it should think about moderating it’s self interest for the good of the whole world community, is a valid and mature concept.     The second, is that control freaks who seek to become a new world aristocracy, can see opportunities to expand their power by claiming to be the valid arbiters to the controls on an individual countries self interest.      These attempts by the international elites should be identified for what they are, and resisted.     Anthropogenic climate change is the best example of that.  

Barnardot

@just_sayin Did Hamas cut the heads off babies. Yes or No.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;That was "just-sayin", not me, dickhead.    Learn to read.     And spell.

Just like red necks and bogans need to learn how to make a quote in sted of putting it in the body of there post. 

So what you do right is you copy then paste what you want in to your post. You with me so far. Then and this could be trikey your got to select All right. And here’s the real trikiest part. Your got to select the back to front P with the top filed in and the l in lower case next to it and you really have to concentrate then because you get many choices just like life throws at us all the time. So if your on the spectrum then your buggered. But if you take your Ritalin then you would figure out that your got to select Quote. 

And then hay presto the bit that you selected is in a gray box and you realize that hay it doesn’t pay to be a bogan because I miss out so much in life.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;I have no problem apologizing if the claim of babies getting their heads cut off is false. 

Well obviously Lier Boy does have a problem because the claim of babies getting their heads cut off is false. So you are even a lier about that.

Or did you just forget? Proberly not because Lier Boy is a habitual lier and liers don't apologize do they?

Just like Lier Boy will not apologize for falsely accusing my work mates of being illegal immigrants and prisoners and whats worse saying that I said it.

Just like Lier Boy will not aplogise for saying that a known luny lying bitsh who makes heaps of money by doing TV shows is a pathological lier.

And just like Lier Boy posted a heap of bogus fraudulent sites that are either closed down or phish people who visit them.

And just like Lier Boy offends and disgusts thousands of descent honest people with his lieing claims.

Lier Boy is a lier and we have no doubt will continue to be a lier.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: How should Israel respond to the terrorist attacks?

First, it seems many of the other users have more time than me, I can only maybe spend an hour a day on this. I see some people have really put a lot of effort with charts and everything. I have a lot of reading to do and haven't cross referenced every point.

Striking the balance between speed and quality is important. I aim for 90% quality and 10% speed. Disinformation is 0% quality and 100% speed and people tend to believe what they hear first. Therefore, take my opinion with a pinch of salt, I haven't spent that much time on it.

My uneducated opinion is that reciprocal pearl clutching and revenge playing off each is the biggest threat that could end the world. Each side takes ten lives for every loss would quickly escalate out of control. The idea is to takes two to tango and humans tend to inflict revenge harsher than the initial wrongdoing.

"A human rights expert for the United Nations called for a ceasefire between Hamas and Israeli forces Saturday, warning of mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. “The situation in the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel has reached fever pitch,” Francesca Albanese, U.N. Special Rapporteur"

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4256342-un-expert-calls-immediate-ceasefire-israel-hamas-conflict/

On the other, it takes one to tango. In the sense that people wanted to party in peace and were butchered by Hamas terrorists. That even if Israel takes .9 lives for every life Hamas takes this might not end the war. Hamas might demand 100 lives to one, you do the math it would be infinite revenge.

In conclusion Israel needs to do less damage than Hamas, sort of like an r0 below 1 for viruses or else this won't end. Or Hamas is totally unreasonable and Israel just needs to win the war as quickly as possible. I am unsure. The million dollar question and unknown variable is Hamas reasonable?

jack

@MineSubCraftStarved

"Joe Biden urged Israel not to repeat “mistakes” the US made after 9/11 as he made a statement during his visit to Tel Aviv on Wednesday, 18 October, following Hamas’ attack earlier this month."

Hello M:

Good for Joe..  He's a smart cookie.  Other than annihilation or a brutal occupation, the two state solution is the only way now.  It was the only way back when it was first proposed, and it's the only way now.

Israel should declare the West Bank to be a free unoccupied Palestinian state... Israel should provide a safe route from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel should evacuate the settlements they built on Palestinian land and give them back..

Do the Palestinians deserve it?  No, but Israel shouldn't do it for the Palestinians..  They should do it for the world.

excon

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Biden says Hamas attack equivlalent to fifteen 911 attacks.

President Biden compares Hamas attack to 'fifteen 9-11s'

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/president-biden-compares-hamas-attack-to-fifteen-9-11s/ss-AA1irStz

Really makes the people who sided with Hamas look like total jerks. If this is true, I really don't know how Israel should respond. Rage and thirst for revenge must be overwhelming.

Sonofason

jack said:

@MineSubCraftStarved

"Joe Biden urged Israel not to repeat “mistakes” the US made after 9/11 as he made a statement during his visit to Tel Aviv on Wednesday, 18 October, following Hamas’ attack earlier this month."

Hello M:

Good for Joe..  He's a smart cookie.  Other than annihilation or a brutal occupation, the two state solution is the only way now.  It was the only way back when it was first proposed, and it's the only way now.

Israel should declare the West Bank to be a free unoccupied Palestinian state... Israel should provide a safe route from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel should evacuate the settlements they built on Palestinian land and give them back..

Do the Palestinians deserve it?  No, but Israel shouldn't do it for the Palestinians..  They should do it for the world.

excon

FTW
I disagree.  You don't make a state out of a territory the size of a small county.  Palestinians...rather Hamas will never stop attacking Israel...whether they have their own state there on the Israeli land, or not.  Either kill them all, or assimilate them into the country, and keep an extremely close eye on each and everyone of them...And when they step out of line, kill them.

Bogan

I Was in high school when the Arab nations surrounding Israel attacked it in 1967.        Israel only consisted of 2 million people surrounded by 500 million Arabs bent on their total eradication.    Just like HAMAS today, the Arabs made no bones about what they would do to the Jews after they crushed them.

Every military pundit predicted Israel’s total annihilation.     The Arabs were awash with the most modern Soviet military equipment, including fighter jets and bombers.    But in a David and Goliath battle, incredibly, the Israelis beat the pants off the Arabs who famously ran so fast that they took of their boots so that they could run faster.     

The funny thing was, in these days the woke Left of the time were solidly behind Israel.    Since the Left can only make sense of human conflict by having an oppressed/oppressor dichotomy, then since it was 2 million  against 500 million, then there was no doubt in the L:eft’s mind who were the good guys and who were the bad guys.     The Left even gleefully pointed out how the Israeli system of Kibbitzes was the equivalent of a communist collective farm, which showed how admirably left the Israelis were,    You just weren’t a hip young European unless you could brag about going to Israel and working on a kibbutz.

Then something terrible happened.    Along came the Yom Kippur war and Israel wiped the floor with the Arabs again.     This put the Left in a real quandary.     Since the Left always takes the side of the losers against the winners, and since Israel always won, the Left started perceiving the Israelis as the bad guys instead of the Arabs who wanted to wipe Israel off the map. 

They could portray the poor Palestinians as the “oppressed”, and the Israelis as ”the oppressors” with a little pushing and shoving of the facts.      This coincided with a surge in university attendance at western universities where the ever expanding Humanities courses churned out brainwashed ninnies fit only for employment int the public service, so hatred of Israel by the educated left went into overdrive.  

I began to see just how shallow the thinking of the “progressive” brahmin caste was.      They followed every political fashion like they were conforming to a clothing catalogue.    It was as obligatory to hate Israel as it was to despise Republicans.   No critical thinking was needed, all they had to do to know that they were right was to follow the dictates of the self appointed leaders of their oh, so ferking superior peer group.    

Dreamer

Argument Topic: You make some valid points.

@Bogan

I don't understand liberals insistence on protecting religion. In some liberal circles whenever I start bashing religion somebody pushes me off the stage or distracts. I blame Howard Zinn's book which believes the Lancet study of some 600,000 Iraq deaths due to medical supply embargoes. Some of Zinn's writings have real problems with factual accuracy and just believe the propaganda of the losing side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

On the other hand Zinn missed the rectal feeding bag torture done by the Cheney administration. Anyways, true or not this is the starting point for a lot of liberals fiercely protecting Islam and Muslims to the point of pro-Palestine propaganda and antisemitic hate. Let's not forget the state hate by Iran which targets liberals.

https://counterhate.com/research/state-hate/

You can say whatever you want against Christianity, but as soon as you start criticizing Islam, you get ousted. In my opinion religion has to go, it just complicates everything needlessly. Many liberals go way further than just saying, I agree religion does more harm than good, but I think climate change and nuclear proliferation are bigger problems.

Have you heard about Qatar funding "social justice"?

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/outnumbered-at-uclas-pro-hamas-rally/