What should we do about the despicable liberal response to Hamas unprovoked attack?

Phite

Barnardot said:

So if you want to put it down to one thing Hamas used one of the oldest and most effective tricks in the military manual. And that is the element of surprise.

Yeah, who knew that by stealing a page right out of Hogan's Heroes' playbook, Hamas would be able to expose Israel's security barrier to be about as effective as Stalag-13's chain-link fence, its sweeping searchlight, and of course, Sergeant Schultz.asleep on the job.

I would think that Israel has a full refund coming to them, and then a recall of all the sensors, cameras, tanks, and every other function built into that security barrier that failed all at once.  

What a joke!

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Nice to have you back, haven't seen you for about 3 weeks was getting worried about you.

@jack

I hope everything is okay with you.

Barnardot

@Phite ;I would think that Israel has a full refund coming to them

Yes but then the manufacturers probably got it right. They probably had a claws in the warranty that looks like this. Ahemmmm......

This product is guarantted for 6 years and if your so totally dum and slack to be using this after 6 years when it is totally redundant and out of date then your enemy will have full unreserved rights to blow the aces off you. And notwithstanding that the cameras and sensors will not point upwards to detect high tech enemy drones which haven't been invented yet.

Phite

Barnardot said:

. . . the cameras and sensors will not point upwards to detect high tech enemy drones which haven't been invented yet.

Live and learn . . .

Barnardot

@Phite ;Live and learn . . .

So right so the next thing you know the Jew boys are going to spend a gozillion sheckles on updating there air defence systems. And next thing you know is that Mohammad and his mates also called Mohammad are going to come up from under ground from all the tunnels they made.

You herd it here first.

Phite

Hey, maybe they'll finally be able to pay their own way without U.S. taxpayer donations after they confiscate Gaza's offshore gas deposits.

Bogan

HAMAS is asking for a ceasefire because the Israelis have got them pretty well right where they want them and are slowly wiping the medieval bastards out.     I think those HAMAS id-iots thought that they could fight Israel in their tunnels, Cu Chi style.    But Gaza is not Vietnam, and they have got themselves trapped like thecowardly rats they are.    After the IDF gets through with HAMAS, i doubt if they will every try a stunt like that again.

Phite

Bogan said:

After the IDF gets through with HAMAS, i doubt if they will every try a stunt like that again.

Do you understand what a false flag operation is?

Still believe some guys drove a bulldozer through the security barrier without eliciting a military response . . . for several hours?

Last time you talked, you did expose your lack of understanding of that security barrier.  Have you done enough research since then in order to understand what would really happen when a bulldozer is driven through it?

Bogan

@Phite

Try writing an entire 350 word article starting with a clearly stated premise that you are prepared to defend with a reasoned argument.     Writing curt replies dealing entirely in implications is hardly going to impress anybody into thinking you have an opinion worth reading.    Neither is, just continually asking loaded Dorothy Dixer questions.     You may think that it makes you look authoritative, but it just makes you look like an ignorant person winging it to vainly defend a position he passionately holds, but has little knowledge of.

i asked you "where were you going with your implication?"    And it is only now, several posts later that you have finally gotten around to implying what it is.     You are implying that the HAMAAs attack on Israel where 1400 men, women, children, and babies got slaughtered was a "false flag" operation done by Israel?      Like, are you insane?      No wonder you hate Israel and support the Jihadists who hate you, your country, your culture, and your dog.     Please write 350 words explaining how your fevered mind came to that conclusion.    I read psychology and you are an interesting case.

 

Dee

@Bogan


  I read psychology

No you don't,  you're a buffoon.

Phite

@Bogan

Actually, you're the interesting case here.  I've posted an article by someone well acquainted with the details of the security barrier.  Sounded to me like he was saying that the idea of a bulldozer crashing through the barrier without drawing an immediate police or military response simply begs belief.  Sorry, but that's what he was saying.  So, before we go any further, you'll have to give me your interpretation of what he was saying there.

You sound quite angry about what he was implying.  Rather than express your disapproval of someone pointing out the implications of what he is saying, why not just explain where you believe he got it wrong.

You seem to hold the IDF in high esteem.  Are you acquainted with the USS Liberty . . . incident?

Bogan

@Phite

Phite   Actually, you're the interesting case here.  I've posted an article by someone well acquainted with the details of the security barrier.  Sounded to me like he was saying that the idea of a bulldozer crashing through the barrier without drawing an immediate police or military response simply begs belief.  Sorry, but that's what he was saying.  So, before we go any further, you'll have to give me your interpretation of what he was saying there.

 If your source is claiming that HAMAS did not smash through the security barrier with bulldozers and attack Israel, and if you are implying that the mass murder of 1400 largely civilian Israeli men, women, children, and babies was a “false flag” operation conducted by the the Israelis themselves, then one wonders what you use for a brain?

 

Phite quote    You sound quite angry about what he was implying. 

 You are confusing the shaking of my head in pitying wonder for anger.      Only stu-pid people get angry.    I am descended from British people and getting angry is not part of our collective culture.   My people have a saying about anger.    “If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs…”    In other words, don’t get angry.   When you get angry, you stop thinking and you can only react emotionally, which can make a stressful situation a lot worse.       Voltaire once remarked that the British were France’s most dangerous enemy because “they never get angry.”

 

Phite quote     Rather than express your disapproval of someone pointing out the implications of what he is saying, why not just explain where you believe he got it wrong.

 Why should I need to explain away what all people who possess triple digit IQ’s would consider insanity?     Such a ridiculous conspiracy theory hardly aids your credibility with any impartial person possessing average IQ that you wish to convince of the validity of your potty beliefs.     But it sure helps my side a lot, so please, keep it up.       As Napoleon once remarked.  "Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake."  

 

Phite     You seem to hold the IDF in high esteem.  Are you acquainted with the USS Liberty . . . incident? 

  Like your double digit IQ, your memory is also in remiss if you cannot remember that you and I have already exchanged several posts already on that topic.  Please stop smoking that wacky tobaccy.   Continued use definitely reduces IQ and memory, and you cannot afford to lose any more brain cells.

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

Phite   Actually, you're the interesting case here.  I've posted an article by someone well acquainted with the details of the security barrier.  Sounded to me like he was saying that the idea of a bulldozer crashing through the barrier without drawing an immediate police or military response simply begs belief.  Sorry, but that's what he was saying.  So, before we go any further, you'll have to give me your interpretation of what he was saying there.

 If your source is claiming that HAMAS did not smash through the security barrier with bulldozers and attack Israel,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah, the bulldozer went through the security barrier; no one is contesting that.  What you're being asked is, given what the guy in the article said about the barrier, how did the destruction of the barrier with a bulldozer go unnoticed for hours.

Take a stand one way or the other.  You seem incapable of responding in a coherent way.  That's what anger does . . .

Just paraphrase what the guy said.  Then I'll know where you stand.

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite ; Phite :  Are you acquainted with the USS Liberty . . . incident? 

  Like your double digit IQ, your memory is also in remiss if you cannot remember that you and I have already exchanged several posts already on that topic.  Please stop smoking that wacky tobaccy.   Continued use definitely reduces IQ and memory, and you cannot afford to lose any more brain cells.

I just went through this thread, and I couldn't find the posts you're referring to concerning the USS Liberty incident.  Why don't you point them out if you believe they're there?

If, as you say, wacky tobaccy causes one to forget something that was posted, what are you partaking of that causes you to remember posts that never existed?  Don't ya just hate when, speaking from your hallucinatory space, you refer to conversations that never took place?

You should consider the belligerent mindset of the IDF as demonstrated by their deadly attack on the USS Liberty and their subsequent denial of ill intentions before singing their praises. 

Barnardot

@Bogan ;After the IDF gets through with HAMAS, i doubt if they will every try a stunt like that again.

Well weather you like it or not they will keep on trying those stunts again since history shows that that is what they keep on doing. Your got to realize that these organizations aren't like a one nation army like those big noses are. hamas is made up of cells and when a cell gets obliterated they just re group and create more cells so long as the moolah keeps pouring in like it is from all the other rag head States and combined those buggas have a lot more money than the Israelis. And the US can keep being on there side but it is all grand standing. Watch this channel because you herd it here first that those head banging four skin mutilating weirdos are going to get knocked off this planet. and sonner rather than later.

Bogan

@Phite ;   I just went through this thread, and I couldn't find the posts you're referring to concerning the USS Liberty incident.  Why don't you point them out if you believe they're there?

It was not on this topic and it may not have been you.  If not, I apologise.     it is hard to tell you loony lefties apart since you all seem to have the same degree of brainwashing, and you all seem to be parroting the same slogans instead of thinking straight.     

Dee

@Bogan


you all seem to be parroting the same slogans instead of thinking straight.     

Surprised you could even reply,  are  you not running a bit late for your monthly KKK meet up?

ZeusAres42

In all seriousness, the situation between Israel and Hamas is complex and deeply rooted in a long history of conflict. Both parties have been accused of actions that have led to civilian casualties and suffering. The actions of both sides in this conflict are often subject to international debate and scrutiny, with different perspectives and interpretations depending on political, historical, and regional viewpoints.

It's important to understand that assigning "guilt" in such a complex and longstanding conflict can oversimplify the nuances and the historical context. Each side has its own narrative and justification for its actions, which are often intertwined with broader issues of national security, territorial disputes, historical grievances, and political ideologies.

International law and humanitarian principles provide frameworks for assessing the actions of both parties, especially regarding the protection of civilians and adherence to the rules of armed conflict. The international community, including various governments and organizations, often engage in efforts to mediate and resolve these conflicts, aiming to reduce hostilities and address underlying issues.

In summary, the conflict between Israel and Hamas is multifaceted, and the actions of both parties are part of a broader and complex historical and political context.

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite ;   I just went through this thread, and I couldn't find the posts you're referring to concerning the USS Liberty incident.  Why don't you point them out if you believe they're there?

It was not on this topic and it may not have been you.   

Or, it may have been the wacky tobaccy.

Anyway, what you were asked is, given what the guy in the article knew and said about the security barrier, how did the destruction of that barrier with a bulldozer go unnoticed for hours?  Just paraphrase what the guy in the article said.  And if by chance your takeaway from what he said leads you to believe that a bulldozer going through the barrier would go unnoticed for hours and hours, I'd be interested in hearing your take on that.

Bogan

@Phite

Since you obviously don't bother watching the news. and get all your brainwashibg from either Pravda or the Guardian, you seem to be unaware that the first thing that the HAMAS terrorists that you adore did, was to use drones to knock out all Israeli communications, especially cell towers.    You have to get out of that wine bar with your chardonnay sucking mates (sorry, bud-dies) and have a look around.     And your point is.....?

Phite

@Bogan

So, Hamas took out all of the cameras and sensors along the barrier, disabled armed tanks, took out radar, and crashed through the barrier without the command center detecting any of it?

The Jerusalem Post (June 23, 2017) heralds the newly proposed 65 km Gaza Fence and underground wall as “the biggest and most complex engineering projects Israel has undertaken and is unique even on a global scale”:

This underground wall will be equipped with sensors produced by the Israeli defense manufacturer Elbit Systems …

Above ground, a six to eight meter integrated wire fence armed with sensors and cameras will be erected. Observation, control and command centers will be built along its length and the entire barrier, above and below ground, will be linked online to a command center located in a rear military base in the vicinity.
…

observation towers, control and command centers will be built along the length of the wall, above and below ground, linked to a command center situated in a nearby military base.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So how did Hamas defeat that barrier undetected?

Bogan

@Phite ;    So, Hamas took out all of the cameras and sensors along the barrier, disabled armed tanks, took out radar, and crashed through the barrier without the command center detecting any of it?

No, they knocked down the walls themselves and invited HAMAS in so that they could massacre Jewish men women, children, and babies.     It was all a Jewish plot.

Phite quote   So how did Hamas defeat that barrier undetected?

You got me.   And your point is.........?

Phite

The command centers for the sensors, cameras, armed tanks, radar, etc. were at a nearby military base.  If you believe that Hamas defeated Israeli intelligence and the security barrier, explain how they arranged for the complete failure of the barrier without that failure being detected at the command centers?

It's like Israel's claim that they didn't mean to murder American military personnel during the USS Liberty massacre.  You believe anything the Israelis say, even when it flies in the face of reality.

Bogan

@Phite ; Just so you can learn something, your debating style is called "Always Imply, But When Challenged Deny."

You are implying that the Israelis knew all about the HAMAS attack and did nothing to prevent the slaughter of 1400 of their own men, women, children, and babies.     Good luck getting anybody to believe that rubbish.   

Why the Israelis shot up that yank spy ship, I just don't know.    As I said previously to either you, or some other loon, they had their backs to the wall, they were vastly outnumbered,  The very survival of every Israeli depended upon the Israelis keeping their military movements secret.     Just how close the yanks were to Israel in those days, I don't remember.        But I do know that the yanks opposed the joint operation of Israeli, British, and French forces when they tried to take back the Suez canal which the Gypos had stolen it off the French and the British.       At that time, discrimination against Jews in the USA was quite popular, and Jews were prevented from being members of exclusive clubs.     In addition, there was a very real suspicion among Jews that during WW2, both the British and the American leadership were quite happy about Hitler exterminating the Jews for them.   .     The allies did nothing about the extermination camps all during the war, even though Jewish leaders pleaded with them to do something, even bombing the camps themselves, or the railway lines bring Jews to the camps for mechanized slaughter.. 

For Christ's sake go to a library and read some history, instead of dreaming up ridiculous conspiracy theories, and then expecting your opponents to prove your case for you.  .  

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite ; Just so you can learn something, your debating style is called "Always Imply, But When Challenged Deny."

You are implying that the Israelis knew all about the HAMAS attack and did nothing to prevent the slaughter of 1400 of their own men, women, children, and babies.     Good luck getting anybody to believe that rubbish.   

Why the Israelis shot up that yank spy ship, I just don't know.

It's true that many are questioning the failure of Israeli intelligence regarding the attack.  The expert witness I provided has also stated that something doesn't add up.  You seem to be of the opinion that, despite all the bells and whistles that went into the security barrier, which were all connected to online command centers at a nearby military base, Hamas was nevertheless able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree for hours in broad daylight without anyone at the military base noticing that radar, hundreds of cameras, sensors, etc. were no longer operable.

Do you find that to be a reasonable narrative?

Also, when the Israelis attacked a US naval ship and killed US soldiers, that was an act of war.  But you just apologized for them, entering extenuating circumstances as part of the apology.  The Israelis decided that they didn't like the Americans (their closest ally) being there, and so they opted to treat them like an enemy by attacking and killing crew and doing their best to sink their ship.  But, in your eyes, the fault lies with the crew of the USS Liberty, a virtually unarmed Navy technical research ship in International waters.  They said that it was a case of mistaken identity, but that's been proven to be a fabrication on their part.  And in my opinion, that puts their methods in question.

MichaelElpers

@Phite

If this was credible wouldnt you think Hamas would be pointing this out?
I do not know anyone from the side of HAMAS claiming told us to or just let us kill their citizens.

Phite

MichaelElpers said:

@Phite

If this was credible wouldnt you think Hamas would be pointing this out?
I do not know anyone from the side of HAMAS claiming told us to or just let us kill their citizens.

 If what was credible?

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote    It's true that many are questioning the failure of Israeli intelligence regarding the attack. 

 “Many?”     Like who?    Every Muslim on planet earth?  Yair, that figures.   Most of those brain deads think that the Jews were behind 9/11 also.

 

Phite quote      The expert witness I provided has also stated that something doesn't add up.  You seem to be of the opinion that, despite all the bells and whistles that went into the security barrier, which were all connected to online command centers at a nearby military base, Hamas was nevertheless able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree for hours in broad daylight without anyone at the military base noticing that radar, hundreds of cameras, sensors, etc. were no longer operable.

 You are IMPLYING that the Israeli government was involved in the slaughter of their own citizens?    Don’t you realise how potty your premise is?    Please keep it up.   “Logic” like that really helps us right wingers to display to any impartial observer just how much loony lefties are intellectually challenged.

 

Phite   Do you find that to be a reasonable narrative?

 I find it bloody bizarre.    For your information, after the shooting spree at Port Arthur that killed 35 people and wounded dozens more,  by a brain dead mo-ron named Arthur Bryant, some right wing people were pushing the line that Bryant could not have done the deed.      They claimed it must have been done by an Australian special forces soldier so that the Australian government could justify the gun buyback to remove the private ownership of every self loading rifle in Australia.   It just goes to show that even my right side of politics has loonies like you.

 

Phite  Also, when the Israelis attacked a US naval ship and killed US soldiers, that was an act of war. 

 Yes it was.

 

Phite quote    But you just apologized for them, entering extenuating circumstances as part of the apology. 

 I offered an explanation as to how it might have happened.    Which the USA itself has apparently accepted. 

 

Phite      The Israelis decided that they didn't like the Americans (their closest ally) being there, and so they opted to treat them like an enemy by attacking and killing crew and doing their best to sink their ship.

 I don’t know how close an “ally” the USA was to Israel at that time?    Or, whether it was just a mistake, like the US shooting down of an Iranian civilian airbus carrying pilgrims to the Hajj.     Whenever you are confronted by a situation where the only explanations are a conspiracy or a balls- up, smart money is on the balls- up, every time. 

 

Phite quote       But, in your eyes, the fault lies with the crew of the USS Liberty, a virtually unarmed Navy technical research ship in International waters.  They said that it was a case of mistaken identity, but that's been proven to be a fabrication on their part.  And in my opinion, that puts their methods in question.

 The fault was with whoever it was in the US Navy who ordered the Liberty to enter a war zone, where the people of one combatant were fighting for their very survival against a fanatical, genocidal, and rapacious enemy that you so admire, and they were not mucking around.    Because if they lost, then what happened on October 7, 2023 in Israel would have been magnified a million times.   

Phite

@Bogan

The Israelis have bragged up their intelligence to be top of the line.  You should be questioning how it ALL failed and no one noticed at the military base where everything was linked.  You should give that some thought some day.  You can't be that easy . . .

Did it ever occur to you that the implication of a stand-down is so obvious that no one has to imply anything.  All you have to offer in response is an argument from incredulity.  It's worth nothing.

To reiterate, you accept that everything failed all at once.  Not only that, but you also believe that a failure to respond for hours and hours is not suspicious at all.

As far as Israel's attack of the USS Liberty, Aryeh Biro, a retired Israeli officer, publicly admitted that war crimes were committed in the Sinai in 1967. But the recent discovery of mass graves has revived memories in Egypt and perhaps renewed animosity against the former enemy. Egypt and Israel made peace a decade after the war but there is little trade or tourism between the two countries.

Now the Israelis are offering to compensate families of the victims but some Egyptians want Israeli officers put on trial as well. "Such people should be punished according to the law," said Mohamed Abdel Moneim of the Al-Ahram newspaper.

The Israelis have refused to put any officers on trial, saying it was all too long ago. However, the memories are still fresh for the villagers near El-Arish in the Sinai.

CNN- Mass grave may strain relations - Sept. 25, 1995

They saw that it was a U.S. vessel, attacked, and denied they knew it was a U.S. vessel.  That doesn't mean anything either, does it?

You don't suppose the Israelis were worried about the USS Liberty finding out about the executions, do you.  That would explain why they tried their best to sink it with everyone aboard.  You see the connection there, don't you?

I'm not asking you a controversial question here.  I'm providing you with information that confirms past atrocious behavior by the IDF to serve as proof that they will do and say anything to achieve their objectives.

I should probably ask you how you feel about the execution of bound Egyptians, but I get the sense that your answer will depend on who did the crime.  I should also ask whether or not you believe the claim from Israel that it was a case of mistaken identity.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote   The Israelis have bragged up their intelligence to be top of the line.  You should be questioning how it ALL failed and no one noticed at the military base where everything was linked.  You should give that some thought some day.  You can't be that easy . . .

 You are once again implying that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own citizens.   I think that is bizarre, because I am not that du-mb.

 

Phite quote       Did it ever occur to you that the implication of a stand-down is so obvious that no one has to imply anything.  All you have to offer in response is an argument from incredulity.  It's worth nothing.   

 Neither is the bizarre conspiracy theory that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own citizens.   It rates with the old conspiracy theory that the Roosevelt administration in the USA knew all about what was going to happen at Pearl Harbour, but it did nothing for political reasons.   Sheer fantasy.   Please stop smoking that wacky tobaccy.  

 

Phite quote     As far as To reiterate, you accept that everything failed all at once.  Not only that, but you also believe that a failure to respond for hours and hours is not suspicious at all.

 Yeah, I do.   Unlike you, I am a student of history, and especially military history.    When the definitive books on this war and the Ukraine war are published, you can bet I will buy the books and read them from cover to cover.    I don’t get my “facts” from Tic Toc, like you.   My generation was taught to read.  

 

Phite quote    Israel's attack of the USS Liberty, Aryeh Biro, a retired Israeli officer, publicly admitted that war crimes were committed in the Sinai in 1967. But the recent discovery of mass graves has revived memories in Egypt and perhaps renewed animosity against the former enemy. Egypt and Israel made peace a decade after the war but there is little trade or tourism between the two countries.

 The animosity exists because the majority of Egyptians voted for a Taliban or ISIS like fundamentalist government, and that government was overthrown by a military coup.    The majority of Egyptians are fundamentalist nut cases.    Muslims are our self declared enemies, and a clear and present danger to the west,     Israel is a western country.  I support the west.      I presume that you are either a brain washed university educated leftist who hates the civilisation he prefers to live in?   Or. you bow the Mecca when you pray? 

 

Phite quote      Now the Israelis are offering to compensate families of the victims but some Egyptians want Israeli officers put on trial as well. "Such people should be punished according to the law," said Mohamed Abdel Moneim of the Al-Ahram newspaper.

 Nice of the Israelis to pay money to their bloodthirsty and rapacious enemies.   Shows what nice guys they are.    They also provide water and electricity to the useless sods as well.    But what we have here is a religion of war which hates the Jews because it’s false prophet hated them.     This “war” could end tomorrow if Gaza became part of Egypt.  

Phite quote   The Israelis have refused to put any officers on trial, saying it was all too long ago. However, the memories are still fresh for the villagers near El-Arish in the Sinai.    

 You are whining about some obscure alleged event I have never heard of before, even though I have read a lot about the Six Day War, and the Yom Kippur War.     All that those books taught me was my absolute admiration to the officers and men of the IDF.      Hundreds of thousands of Arabs have been massacred by their own Arab “brothers” and co religionists in Yemen, and you could not care about that.    Saddam Hussein massacred over a million Muslims in Iraq and Iran, but not a peep from the university social justice warriors over that.   The Assad regime in Syrian had dropped poison gas on their own Arab “brothers” and not a peep from people like you over that, either.  ISIS massacred and raped tens of thousands of people in Iraq, and people like you studiously ignore that.   You only get your knickers in a knot and parade around with Palestinian flags if you can find some way to present the Israelis as the bad guys.       If you lefties didn’t have double standards, you would have no standards at all.

 

 Phite quote.   They saw that it was a U.S. vessel, attacked, and denied they knew it was a U.S. vessel.  That doesn't mean anything either, does it?  

 Apparently, it meant nothing to the US government, who played the whole thing down.    Don’t ask me why, ask them.  

 

Phite quote      You don't suppose the Israelis were worried about the USS Liberty finding out about the executions, do you.  That would explain why they tried their best to sink it with everyone aboard.  You see the connection there, don't you?

 I see the Machiavellian workings of a diseased mind trying to make coincidental connections to support his flimsy conspiracy theory.      

 

Phite quote       'm not asking you a controversial question here.  I'm providing you with information that confirms past atrocious behavior by the IDF to serve as proof that they will do and say anything to achieve their objectives.

 While I am seeing with my own eyes on TV, that Muslims are just a bunch of bloodthirsty religious fanatics who hate Jews so much that nothing less than the total extermination of Israel will satisfy them.   And if they ever achieve that, we are next.   So, I really do not care if the Israelis play dirty with this contemptuous enemy who never stop fighting because it is a religious duty, and they think it will get them a nice place on the seventh level of paradise, as well as 72 self regenerating virgins to fark into eternity.       

 

Phite quote    I should probably ask you how you feel about the execution of bound Egyptians, but I get the sense that your answer will depend on who did the crime.  I should also ask whether or not you believe the claim from Israel that it was a case of mistaken identity.

 It is an unproven allegation.   And given the historical  behaviour of Muslims towards defeated enemies, quite understandable, if true.      Australian soldiers did similar things to Japanese soldiers during WW2.     The Japanese were so brutal that some people actually believed that they were not human.   My own grandfather told my mother and her sister that when the Japanese landed in Australia, he was going to shoot both of them, because everybody knew what the Japs did to captured females.   If the Arabs fought like honourable enemies, they might get treated like honourable enemies.      But if they just keep chanting the manta that Israel must be exterminated, then as far as I am concerned, the Israeli exterminees are free to play dirty too.   The Jews don’t walk docilely into gas chambers anymore.  

Barnardot

@Bogan @Phite Its pure and simple. Hamas won on the day. They meticulously studied the Israels military weakness and had plenty of time to plan. They could see that the Israeli cameras and jamming software was 2 generations old and air detection was nearly non existent. Hamas had enormous financial backing and employed high paid experts as well as buying up to date better hardware and software. And on the day Hamas beet Israel at its own game. The only old tactiv Hamas used was the element of surprise. It was a win win for Hamas because they were that much better and those big nose wiredos have been put on notice.

Phite

@Bogan

Phite quote   The Israelis have bragged up their intelligence to be top of the line.  You should be questioning how it ALL failed and no one noticed at the military base where everything was linked.  You should give that some thought some day.  You can't be that easy . . .

 You are once again implying that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own citizens.   I think that is bizarre, because I am not that du-mb.

Your response was your usual argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy; it's worthless.  Therefore, we'll just acknowledge your position that. despite all the bells and whistles that went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier--which were all connected to online command centers at a nearby military base--Hamas was nevertheless able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree for hours in broad daylight without anyone at the military base noticing for hours that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable.

My position is much the same as the expert whose opinion I put right in front of your eyes.  And unless you can explain in a rational way how no one at the military base where all of those security barrier bells and whistles were linked to noticed when they ALL went offline ALL at once, then I'm inclined to go along with the expert.

Phite quote       Did it ever occur to you that the implication of a stand-down is so obvious that no one has to imply anything.  All you have to offer in response is an argument from incredulity.  It's worth nothing.   

 Neither is the bizarre conspiracy theory that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own citizens.   It rates with the old conspiracy theory that the Roosevelt administration in the USA knew all about what was going to happen at Pearl Harbour, but it did nothing for political reasons.   Sheer fantasy.   Please stop smoking that wacky tobaccy.

That doesn't change the fact that you're offering nothing but ad hominem and argument from incredulity.

Phite quote     As far as To reiterate, you accept that everything failed all at once.  Not only that, but you also believe that a failure to respond for hours and hours is not suspicious at all.

 Yeah, I do.   Unlike you, I am a student of history, and especially military history.    When the definitive books on this war and the Ukraine war are published, you can bet I will buy the books and read them from cover to cover.    I don’t get my “facts” from Tic Toc, like you.   My generation was taught to read. 

Another ad hominem attack, and another refusal to offer your explanation for no one at the military base where all of those security barrier bells and whistles were linked to noticing when they ALL went offline ALL at once.  You say it's what you believe, but you won't elaborate.

Phite quote    Israel's attack of the USS Liberty, Aryeh Biro, a retired Israeli officer, publicly admitted that war crimes were committed in the Sinai in 1967. But the recent discovery of mass graves has revived memories in Egypt and perhaps renewed animosity against the former enemy. Egypt and Israel made peace a decade after the war but there is little trade or tourism between the two countries.

 The animosity exists because the majority of Egyptians voted for a Taliban or ISIS like fundamentalist government, and that government was overthrown by a military coup.    The majority of Egyptians are fundamentalist nut cases.    Muslims are our self declared enemies, and a clear and present danger to the west,     Israel is a western country.  I support the west.      I presume that you are either a brain washed university educated leftist who hates the civilisation he prefers to live in?   Or. you bow the Mecca when you pray?

Not surprisingly, you failed to acknowledge the war crime.  All you did was demonstrate your capacity to dehumanize whomever necessary in order to defend Israel's war crime.  The Egyptians complained about the executions, and you go into a rant in which the Egyptians are as non human as the Gazans, which makes everything alright, huh?  You certainly exhibit a loyalty toward them, albeit misplaced.

Phite quote   The Israelis have refused to put any officers on trial, saying it was all too long ago. However, the memories are still fresh for the villagers near El-Arish in the Sinai.    

 You are whining about some obscure alleged event I have never heard of before, even though I have read a lot about the Six Day War, and the Yom Kippur War.     All that those books taught me was my absolute admiration to the officers and men of the IDF.      Hundreds of thousands of Arabs have been massacred by their own Arab “brothers” and co religionists in Yemen, and you could not care about that.    Saddam Hussein massacred over a million Muslims in Iraq and Iran, but not a peep from the university social justice warriors over that.   The Assad regime in Syrian had dropped poison gas on their own Arab “brothers” and not a peep from people like you over that, either.  ISIS massacred and raped tens of thousands of people in Iraq, and people like you studiously ignore that.   You only get your knickers in a knot and parade around with Palestinian flags if you can find some way to present the Israelis as the bad guys.       If you lefties didn’t have double standards, you would have no standards at all.

You have never heard about it before because you didn't want to hear about it.  But yeah, it happened.

Phite quote      You don't suppose the Israelis were worried about the USS Liberty finding out about the executions, do you.  That would explain why they tried their best to sink it with everyone aboard.  You see the connection there, don't you?

 I see the Machiavellian workings of a diseased mind trying to make coincidental connections to support his flimsy conspiracy theory.   

You see very little.  If you can come up with a reason why the Israelis didn't bother to contact the Liberty--which they knew belonged to the U.S.--before trying to kill the crew and sink the ship, go ahead.  Oh, and the executions took place on the same day as the attack on the Liberty.  What a coincidence, huh!?

Phite quote    I should probably ask you how you feel about the execution of bound Egyptians, but I get the sense that your answer will depend on who did the crime.  I should also ask whether or not you believe the claim from Israel that it was a case of mistaken identity.

 It is an unproven allegation. 

Right . . .

This is a testimony by Mr. Gabby Bron, a famous military historian who fought in 1967. He wrote it down in the famous Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot in year 1995, and it caused a big reaction, as it was from the rare times the Israelis, especially those who worked in the IDF during 1967 admit that the IDF did war crimes against the Egyptian and the Arab POW. It came after the publications made by Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki who exposed the terrible massacre done by the “Shaked Battalion” which was led by current minister Ben Eliezer.

By Gabby Bron

It was the publication of the claims, made by Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki”1”, about what really occurred during the Six Day War [June 1967] that caused me to recall what had happened and what I and my comrades had seen during my reserve service.On the third day of that war we saw Egyptian POWs being executed after a “court martial”. The explanation given to us was that those killed were Palestinian “Fedayin” fighters from the Gaza Strip who had disguised themselves as soldiers in order to escape from our forces”. I witnessed their executions with my own eyes in the morning of June 8, 1967 in the airport area in al-Arish, Sinai. This was where the headquarters of the brigade commanded by General Israel Tal, in which I had served, were located.

On that morning we heard that hundreds of Egyptian POWs were being held in the headquarters and we had time to go to look at them. About 150 POW’s were held in an open building serving as a cover for airplanes, surrounded on three sides by high sand-bag embankments. They were densely crowded and sitting on the ground with their hands on the back of their necks.

Adjoining the prison compound, guarded by military police, there were two men sitting at a table. They wore Israeli army uniforms and steel helmets with faces almost entirely covered by sun glasses and khaki-colored handkerchiefs. Every few minutes, the military police took one of the POWs from the prison compound and escorted him to the table. A short conversation, which we were not able to hear, was then conducted. Following it, the POW was escorted by two military policemen to a place behind the building.

I followed the procedure. The POW was escorted to a distance of about 100 meters from the building and given a spade. I watched the POW digging a big pit which took about 15 minutes. Then the policemen ordered him to throw out the spade. When he did so one of them pointed his Uzi gun at the POW inside the pit and shot two short bullet bursts, consisting maybe of three four bullets each. The POW fell dead.

After few minutes another POW was escorted to the same pit, forced to go into it and was also shot dead. A third POW was brought to the same place and also shot dead. Since the process was repeated a number of times, the grave was filled up. I witnessed about ten such executions.

We were standing there, near the place where the POW’s were being held and we watched silently. The fact that a number of soldiers were watching the spectacle was apparently unwelcome because after a time Colonel Eshel, the commander of the communication battalion of the brigade, appeared and shouted at the soldiers, ordering them to leave. When we didn’t show any willingness to obey, Colonel Eshel pulled out his personal revolver and threatened us with it. Raising his voice even more, he was able to get the soldiers to obey, including me.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can't imagine that you, being so well-read, would have missed that.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote   Your response was your usual argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy; it's worthless.  Therefore, we'll just acknowledge your position that. despite all the bells and whistles that went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier--which were all connected to online command centers at a nearby military base--Hamas was nevertheless able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree for hours in broad daylight without anyone at the military base noticing for hours that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable.        My position is much the same as the expert whose opinion I put right in front of your eyes.  And unless you can explain in a rational way how no one at the military base where all of those security barrier bells and whistles were linked to noticed when they ALL went offline ALL at once, then I'm inclined to go along with the expert.

 Then don’t expect me to try and deprogram you of your delusions.   As I have said previously, the more you push this ridiculous premise, that Israel was somehow involved in the massacre of it’s own people, the more that you lose credibility with any impartial person reading this who has triple digit IQ.      Please, keep up the good work destroying your own credibility, and the credibility of the rest of your pro terrorist “useful fool” comrades.       It helps me a lot.

 

 Phite quote      That doesn't change the fact that you're offering nothing but ad hominem and argument from incredulity.

 It does not change the fact that any person with triple digit IQ would consider your conspiracy theory as the workings of a diseased mind.     My tip to you, is that if you wish to submit a conspiracy theory, at least make it credible.      No, hang on, I withdraw that.      Please keep it up.    We don’t get much to laugh about on Debate Island.  

 

Phite quote       Another ad hominem attack, and another refusal to offer your explanation for no one at the military base where all of those security barrier bells and whistles were linked to noticing when they ALL went offline ALL at once.  You say it's what you believe, but you won't elaborate.

 I don’t need to.    This is your ridiculous conspiracy theory, not mine.      You might try to submit a reasoned argument justifying why Israel would allow HAMAS to slaughter 1400 men, women, children, and babies to justify your bizarre worldview?   But so far, all you have done is imply that Israel did it, as well as submitting flimsy evidence to support your theory.     Like I said, ma-a-a-a-te.    Keep it up.    It helps the side of the good guys immensely. 

 

Phite quote   Not surprisingly, you failed to acknowledge the war crime. 

 No, I said it was an allegation.      It could be true.   And if it is true, I don’t give a damn.         Every Israeli pilot or soldier who gets captured by the Arabs has very little chance of ever returning home.    If they are females, they will be raped.     When fighting against an enemy like that, I am not going to worry about the good guys returning the compliment to the bad guys. 

 

Phite quote      All you did was demonstrate your capacity to dehumanize whomever necessary in order to defend Israel's war crime. 

 Got news for you, bub.    Dehumanising your enemies is par for the course, especially in wartime.    Everybody does that.   Especially if the enemy does not have any humanity themselves.  

 

Phite quote      The Egyptians complained about the executions, and you go into a rant in which the Egyptians are as non human as the Gazans, which makes everything alright, huh?  You certainly exhibit a loyalty toward them, albeit misplaced.

 Of course the Egyptians complained.       But if Egypt and Syria and Jordan had won the Six Day War, what HAMAS did to those Israelis on October 7, would have been a Sunday school jaunt compared to what the Arabs would have done to the defeated Israelis.     Arabs complaining about war crimes is like the Waffen SS and the Schutzstaffel complaining about war crimes.     It is a premise wore worthy of mirth than serious consideration. 

 

Phite quote   You have never heard about it before because you didn't want to hear about it.  But yeah, it happened.

 That’s it Phite, go off on a tangent.     Ignore my reply which clearly demonstrated how you loony lefties completely ignore the fact that Arabs massacre Arabs in massive numbers with gay abandon, all the time, even using poisoned gas, and never a peep out of you always outraged woke types.     

 

Phite quote    You see very little.  If you can come up with a reason why the Israelis didn't bother to contact the Liberty--which they knew belonged to the U.S.--before trying to kill the crew and sink the ship, go ahead. 

 Ask the US Navy about that, not me.     I have already given you my opinion on that subject, and I don’t intend to repeat myself just because you are obsessed with it. 

 

Phite   Oh, and the executions took place on the same day as the attack on the Liberty.  What a coincidence, huh!?

 Could be, coincidences happen.      You are going to have to come up with something else in order to prove whatever it is you are trying to prove.    What is it, anyway? 

 

Phite This is a testimony by Mr. Gabby Bron, a famous military historian who fought in 1967. 

 Okay, two things there.    Every nation has traitors and Israel is no exception.     The Israelis already banged up in jail an Israeli who spilled the beans on the Israeli nuclear weapons program, and this could be just another traitor.     I myself regard you as a traitor to western civilization, because you are taking the side of western civilisations most dangerous and implacable enemy, to what end, I don’t know?     I suspect it is just political fashion and hubris?        But anyhoo, traitors like yourself and Mr Gabby Bron do exist.

 Second, even if it is true, I don’t give a sheet.     If the Arab Muslims were an honourable enemy who behaved decently themselves, then I would be concerned.      But everything I have ever read about Arab armies is, you do not want to get captured by them.   And, you do not want to be conquered by them either.   Especially, if you are female.    Two US Armed forces women soldiers were captured by the Iraqi army in Desert Storm, and both of them were gang raped.     Every captured Allied soldier or airman who was captured in Desert Storm was savagely beaten and starved almost to death.    So, I really could not give a tinkers cuss about captured Egyptians, any more than I give a sheet over the fates of the Japanese 51st Division soldiers who withdrew from Lae over the Surrawaggad Ranges in New Guinea, with the soldiers of the 7th and 9th Divisions of the Australian army, shooting hundreds of the sick, helpless, and exhausted ones who fell behind.

 Just for your edification, I will give you a history lesson.     In WW2, the Japanese did not like the Americans, they did not like the British, the Dutch, or the French.     But they absolutely hated us Australians, in the same way that the Muslims hate the Jews.    Why?    Because we were a white race which had established ourselves in “their” part of the world.    If the Japanese had invaded Australia, there is no doubt that the Jap would have exterminated almost everyone, just keeping the young women as sex slaves.    There were only 7 million Australians in 1942, and the Japs had already exterminated 7 million Chinese.    THAT is why war crimes by Australian soldiers in WW2 do not worry me one whit.      And that is why if the Israelis did shoot a bunch of Arab POW’s, then that does not worry me either.

 In WW2, Japanese troops captured Singapore.     They went to Singapore hospital and bayonetted every wounded allied soldier in their beds.    They then herded all the nurses together and gang raped them over the next few days.    32 Australian nurses were captured in Borneo, and after being gang raped, they were lined up and machine gunned.

 Now, in North Africa, Erwin Rommel inspected a captured British field hospital and he noted that wounded and captured German soldiers were receiving equal treatment with allied soldiers.     He told the nursing staff to please continue with their good work, and that he would personally make certain that the hospital received every thing it needed from his own stores.    He also told the nursing staff that when the military situation improved for his Army, he would contact the Swiss Red Cross and have all of the nursing staff repatriated back to England.

 THAT is an honourable enemy.    THAT is why even soldiers from enemy countries visit Rommel’s grave at the anniversaries of his death.     Get it through your sclerotic brain that regardless of what Geneva Conventions declare, what happens to the captured enemies of western civilised countries depends a lot about how that enemy behaves themselves. 

Phite

@Bogan

Phite quote   Not surprisingly, you failed to acknowledge the war crime. 

 No, I said it was an allegation.      It could be true.   And if it is true, I don’t give a damn.         Every Israeli pilot or soldier who gets captured by the Arabs has very little chance of ever returning home.    If they are females, they will be raped.     When fighting against an enemy like that, I am not going to worry about the good guys returning the compliment to the bad guys.

Yes, it is apparent that you don't give a damn.  See, here's where your "only Israelis tell the truth" problem shines.  You simply refuse to believe anything about them from anyone that puts them in a bad light.  I assume you're okay with the abuse of kids in Israeli prisons for the crime of throwing stones at a tank or some other such nonsense because the Israelis can do no wrong in your eyes.  That's why when someone like Gabby Bron, along with others, tells you what the Israelis did, you put them all on your or traitor list because  they didn't praise or excuse them for their war crime.

Phite quote   Your response was your usual argument from incredulity, which is a fallacy; it's worthless.  Therefore, we'll just acknowledge your position that. despite all the bells and whistles that went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier--which were all connected to online command centers at a nearby military base--Hamas was nevertheless able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree for hours in broad daylight without anyone at the military base noticing for hours that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable.        My position is much the same as the expert whose opinion I put right in front of your eyes.  And unless you can explain in a rational way how no one at the military base where all of those security barrier bells and whistles were linked to noticed when they ALL went offline ALL at once, then I'm inclined to go along with the expert.

 Then don’t expect me to try and deprogram you of your delusions. 

You forget that you're being asked to explain how Hamas was able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree in broad daylight for hours without anyone at the military base noticing that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable all at once.  So far, you have avoided offering an explanation for such a massive failure of the security barrier, and the failure of anyone at the military base to notice when everything went offline all at once.

Know what? Let's stick with one point at a time.  Less wriggle room for you.  Do you have anything to offer in the way of an explanation for such a massive failure of the barrier and the failure to respond to that massive failure?  Truth is, before this discussion, you thought the security barrier consisted of a concrete wall and a watchtower, even after all the reading you claim to have done.  But you didn't let that stop you from continuing on as if you hadn't been corrected.

Now take a stab at it.  How do you imagine it all failed all at once?  And how is it that no one at the military base where all the sensors, cameras, radar, etc. were linked took notice?  Now that I've informed you of how the security barrier works, what's your explanation for all that failure?  Don't dodge the question this time.  Let's take this to the Max.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote  Yes, it is apparent that you don't give a damn. 

See?    You finally got something right.   

Phite quote   See, here's where your "only Israelis tell the truth" problem shines.  You simply refuse to believe anything about them from anyone that puts them in a bad light. 

See?   You got that wrong.      The alleged war crime you claimed might have happened.     But as a person with right wing views I regard anything the enemies of western civilisation say with suspicion and dep mistrust.      Especially from a traitor such as yourself who is implying that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own men, women, children, and babies.     That is absolutely potty.     No wonder you are a traitor to your own people if you can believe that.

 Furthermore, even if it is true, I jut don’t care.     I don’t care that after D-Day, when the 12th SS Division executed 32 captured Canadian POW’s, that the Canadian Army executed every captured 12th SS Division soldier that fell into their hands.     I don’t care that the US Army did exactly the same thing to any SS soldier who fell into their hands after they learned that the SS had machine gunned 200 captured US soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge.  I don’t care if the Australian Army finished off every wounded or sick Jap they came across on the Kokoda Track.     That is total war.     If your enemy fights honourably then if you capture him, he will probably get treated honourably.     That was why the war against Rommel was considered the last war by gentlemen.    You don’t know anything about war because I will guarantee that you have never read anything about it in your whole, entire life.     Like so many loony lefties, you simply parrot the slogans invented for you by your neo-Marxist, self appointed leaders who have got your psychology figured out, and who know how to trick you.     You have no idea of history or how it applies to the modern day.   You can only think in moral absolutes and rather incredibly, can not see your own hypocrisy when you violate the moral imperatives that you demand your opponents live by.

 Phite quote  I assume you're okay with the abuse of kids in Israeli prisons for the crime of throwing stones at a tank or some other such nonsense because the Israelis can do no wrong in your eyes.

 You are once again making an unproven allegation.   I think that as westerners, Israelis are decent people, which is more than I can say about Muslims.    Even here in Australia, secular Jews have a very low crime rate and are extremely productive.     Muslims are the exact opposite.     If any Muslim terrorist leader makes an allegation that the Israelis are doing something insidious, of course I am unlikely to believe them.      The exact opposite applies to the Israelis.      You seem to believe the opposite to me?   Why you think that way is an interesting question?      Perhaps you could explain why you despise a western country and believe anything that the enemies of your civilisation tell you?       Looking at the high living standards of the Israelis, a country with no natural resources at all, save for the incredible collective intelligence of it’s people, the best thing that could happen to the Arabs would be for Israel to conquer the entire Middle East.

 

Phite quote       You forget that you're being asked to explain how Hamas was able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree in broad daylight for hours without anyone at the military base noticing that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable all at once.  So far, you have avoided offering an explanation for such a massive failure of the security barrier, and the failure of anyone at the military base to notice when everything went offline all at once.

 That is incorrect.   I have already explained to you what might have happened, but you just don’t want to know.     You have your little conspiracy theory, which just happens to be completely potty, and no amount of reason will sway you from what you want to believe. 

 

Phite quote     Know what? Let's stick with one point at a time.  Less wriggle room for you.  Do you have anything to offer in the way of an explanation for such a massive failure of the barrier and the failure to respond to that massive failure? 

 Yes I do.      You are implying that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own men, women, children, and babies.    I find that so ridiculous that it is beyond words.   I have asked you politely to explain how you could believe such rubbish, and not unexpectantly, you dodged the question.     Furthermore, just so that you can not claim that I am dodging your question, simply by pointing out that it is based upon an absurdity, I will endeavour to explain a few things to you.

 That Israel once again got caught with it’s pants down was probably due to one factor.     The Israelis never thought that HAMAS would be so stu-pid as to pull a stunt like that.     It has given the Israelis the perfect excuse to go into Gaza and kill every HAMAS nut case it can corner in one of the death trap tunnels that the terrorists built for themselves.      The fact that HAMAS is now pleading for a ceasefire is proof that they are the ones who miscalculated the situation.       The Israeli Armed forces now have the bastards pretty well right where they want them, and all HAMAS can do is to appeal to western traitors such as yourself to get them out of the trap that they made for themselves.      

 

Phite quote    Truth is, before this discussion, you thought the security barrier consisted of a concrete wall and a watchtower, even after all the reading you claim to have done.  But you didn't let that stop you from continuing on as if you hadn't been corrected.

 Because basically that was all it was.    You are the one trying to “prove” your bizarre theory by trying to make mountains out of molehills. 

 

Phite     Now take a stab at it.  How do you imagine it all failed all at once? 

 Because the Israelis did not expect to be attacked by a bunch of murdering and rapacious religious nut cases, who were too dumb to figure out that they were going to put themselves in a trap of their own making.    So, the Israelis thought that they had everything under control and they goofed off, just like they did in 1973 during Yom Kippur.    That is the last time I am going to explain this to you.  

 

Phite quote    How is it that no one at the military base where all the sensors, cameras, radar, etc. were linked to took notice, now that I've informed you of how the security barrier works?  Don't dodge the question this time.  Let's take this to the Max.

 You really have a bee in your bonnet over this, don’t you?    Your “logic” seems to be, that since Israeli Intelligence should have known beforehand of the attack on October7, and since they should have anticipated that HAMAS would use bulldozers to smash through the wall, and since the Israelis had such a perfect set of sensors on the wall, and since the Isreali army took too long to react, then that is “proof” that the Israeli government knew all about it beforehand?    Which is based upon an illogical premise that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of it’s own citizens?    Which is as potty as you can get.      The only thing that “proves” is how brainwashed the young traitors of western civilisation are, to even think that way.

Bogan

Phite

@Bogan

Phite quote   See, here's where your "only Israelis tell the truth" problem shines.  You simply refuse to believe anything about them from anyone that puts them in a bad light. 

See?   You got that wrong.      The alleged war crime you claimed might have happened.

There are more testimonials to Israel's "coincidental" execution of Egyptians on June 8, 1967, and their subsequent attempt to execute U.S. soldiers and sink their ship, but it's obvious that you only believe Israelis; that is, unless they can verify the war crimes we're discussing.  That's when you label them liars and traitors.

 Phite quote  I assume you're okay with the abuse of kids in Israeli prisons for the crime of throwing stones at a tank or some other such nonsense because the Israelis can do no wrong in your eyes.

You are once again making an unproven allegation. 

Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. 

The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year.

Once again, a case of you not hearing something because it happens to be something you don't want to hear.

Phite quote       You forget that you're being asked to explain how Hamas was able to bulldoze the fence and go on a killing spree in broad daylight for hours without anyone at the military base noticing that sensors, radar, hundreds of cameras, etc. were no longer operable all at once.  So far, you have avoided offering an explanation for such a massive failure of the security barrier, and the failure of anyone at the military base to notice when everything went offline all at once.

 That is incorrect.   I have already explained to you what might have happened,

Hmm.  So far, you really haven't offered any kind of explanation except that everything went offline all at once at the military base, but no one . . . noticed.

Phite quote     Know what? Let's stick with one point at a time.  Less wriggle room for you.  Do you have anything to offer in the way of an explanation for such a massive failure of the barrier and the failure to respond to that massive failure? 

 Yes I do.      You are implying that the Israeli government is complicit in the massacre of 1400 of it’s own men, women, children, and babies. 

No.  You don't.  I and others are pointing out the absurdity of the failure of the barrier and the failure of the Israelis to respond.  And I'm sorry if all of this points to what it does, but I can't do anything about that.

Phite quote    Truth is, before this discussion, you thought the security barrier consisted of a concrete wall and a watchtower, even after all the reading you claim to have done.  But you didn't let that stop you from continuing on as if you hadn't been corrected.

 Because basically that was all it was. 

This is good!  Yet another example of you not hearing what you don't want to hear.  Despite what you've been shown regarding what went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier that's linked to a military base, you still call it a concrete wall.  You're repeating what you thought was true before I filled you in.  But you've been filled in . . . 

 

Phite     Now take a stab at it.  How do you imagine it all failed all at once? 

 Because the Israelis did not expect to be attacked by a bunch of murdering and rapacious religious nut cases,

Uh huh.  But according to Israel, the Israelis are always expecting surprise attacks, and from guess who?  You guessed it; the very ones who Israel has already declared to be "a bunch of murdering and rapacious nut cases." That's why they constructed the security barrier; they didn't want to be surprised.

Phite quote    How is it that no one at the military base where all the sensors, cameras, radar, etc. were linked to took notice, now that I've informed you of how the security barrier works?  Don't dodge the question this time.  Let's take this to the Max.

 You really have a bee in your bonnet over this, don’t you?    Your “logic” seems to be, that since Israeli Intelligence should have known beforehand of the attack on October7, and since they should have anticipated that HAMAS would use bulldozers to smash through the wall,

I just have to ask.  If not a bulldozer, what did the Israelis think would be a threat to the wall.  According to you, there was no way to anticipate THAT.  You're reaching for straws that aren't even there.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote   There are more testimonials to Israel's "coincidental" execution of Egyptians on June 8, 1967, and their subsequent attempt to execute U.S. soldiers and sink their ship, but it's obvious that you only believe Israelis; that is, unless they can verify the war crimes we're discussing.  That's when you label them liars and traitors.

 I am a racist, and I am proud to be a racist.   Calling me a “racist” is not an insult to me, it is a badge of honour.      It means that I know how to think, and I will not swim with the tide of uninformed public opinion.    I can think for myself.      You, on the other hand, (if you are white) are a traitor to your own people and your own civilisation, because you defend the enemies of your civilisation and you sneer at Israel, the only true democracy in the Middle East.     Which, it hardly needs to be pointed out, is the only successful non dysfunctional country in the entire Middle East.     But strangely, you get insulted when I simply state the obvious, that you are a traitor.    I am not insulting you, I am just recognising self evident reality.

 The fact that people who are either traitors, or enemies of western civilisation, do not have much credibility with triple digit IQ western people, is hardly surprising.  Yet you are surprised?   Especially when you come out with an exceptionally kooky conspiracy theory, that the Israeli government was complicit in the massacre of 1400 Israeli men, women, children, and babies.

 

Phite quote     Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. 

The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year.

Once again, a case of you not hearing something because it happens to be something you don't want to hear.

 

The sundry western hating UN organisations do not have any credibility with me at all.       Remember how the UN World Health Organisation supported Red China’s claim that the Wuhan virus did not originate in China?       The UN is now a western hating organization, where the majority of it’s members are from totalitarian states and they are ganging up on the western world, especially Israel.        As a westerner, (if you are a European descended westerner) you should be concerned about that.

 

Phite quote  Hmm.  So far, you really haven't offered any kind of explanation except that everything went offline all at once at the military base, but no one . . . noticed.

 That is complete nonsense.    Not only have I given my opinion on this matter two or three times, I have even explained it in different ways, two or three times.    The best response I gave, was to point out that your conspiracy theory makes no sense.    Unless YOU can give a credible reason as to why the Israeli government would want to allow 2,500 religious nut cases to run amok in their own communities, and rape and murder 1400 of it’s own citizens?

 

Phite quote   No.  I and others are pointing out the absurdity of the failure of the barrier and the failure of the Israelis to respond.  And I'm sorry if all of this points to what it does, but I can't do anything about that.

 Like any obsessed person, you are focussing on what may be hard to explain (even though I have already given credible explanations for it) to submit a kooky conspiracy theory which makes no sense at all.

 

Phite quote   This is good!  Yet another example of you not hearing what you don't want to hear.

 Pot calling kettle “black”.

 

Phite quote  Despite what you've been shown regarding what went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier that's linked to a military base, you still call it a concrete wall.  You're repeating what you thought was true before I filled you in.  But you've been filled in . . . 

 A point already addressed and explained previously.     But I understand why you can’t let it go.    It is all you have to claim that your kooky conspiracy theory is valid.    But you still can not explain why Israel would be complicit in the massacre of it’s own people? 

 

Phite quote    Uh huh.  But according to Israel, they are always expecting surprise attacks.  That's why they constructed the security barrier!!

 They are constantly looking for small bands HAMAS and Hezbollah infiltrators.       They were not expecting a mass attack by 2500 terrorists, all at the same time, in the same way that the USA never thought that the Islamic terrorists that you support would fly civilian airliners into the twin towers in New York city.    Now, did you get that?     Question answered.     Don’t just keep bringing the same already dealt with premises again and again because you are fixated upon it, and have nothing else.

 

Phite quote      I just have to ask.  If not a bulldozer, what did the Israelis think would be a threat to the wall.  According to you, there was no way to anticipate THAT.  Sure.

 Once again, you are fixated upon the idea that because the Israelis got caught with their pants down, then the Israeli government must be complicit in the massacre of it’s own people.     Which is potty.    I have asked you to explain why the Israeli government would think that way, and as usual, you dodged the question again.    As an experienced debater, I can tell more about my opponents actual thinking from the questions they refuse to answer, than the ones they do.    I have asked you politely, now I am demanding, that you give an explanation which is the basis of your whole kooky conspiracy theory.    I will no longer engage with you on any other submission posted by you on this topic until you do.    I am sick and tired of answering all of your questions, the same premises over and over again, while you constantly dodge this crucial question from me.  

Phite

@Bogan

Phite quote   There are more testimonials to Israel's "coincidental" execution of Egyptians on June 8, 1967, and their subsequent attempt to execute U.S. soldiers and sink their ship, but it's obvious that you only believe Israelis; that is, unless they can verify the war crimes we're discussing.  That's when you label them liars and traitors.

 I am a racist, and I am proud to be a racist. 

Yes.  Perhaps that's what causes you to call all witnesses to the war crime as liars and traitors.  And now, after having heard what those witnesses said, and just how deliberate and ugly the event was, you're left with no alternative but to declare that you're a racist.  And so you did.

Phite quote     Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. 

The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year.

Once again, a case of you not hearing something because it happens to be something you don't want to hear.

The sundry western hating UN organisations do not have any credibility with me at all. 

And now the UN is on your list of liars and traitors.  Who didn't see that coming? I'd provide you with more proof, but you'll just put it on your list of things that are contrary to your flawed world view.

Phite quote  Despite what you've been shown regarding what went into the engineering and construction of that security barrier that's linked to a military base, you still call it a concrete wall.  You're repeating what you thought was true before I filled you in.  But you've been filled in . . . 

 A point already addressed and explained previously. 

No.  Your response was that it was a surprise attack that Israel wasn't expecting.  I believe I pointed out the absurdity of believing that kind of narrative owing to the details of the security barrier.

Phite quote    Uh huh.  But according to Israel, they are always expecting surprise attacks.  That's why they constructed the security barrier!!

 They are constantly looking for small bands HAMAS and Hezbollah infiltrators.       They were not expecting a mass attack by 2500 terrorists, all at the same time, in the same way. . .

Oh, I see.  But, why did every little thing that was built into that security barrier fail ALL AT ONCE?  And even assuming that every little thing that was built into the security barrier failed . . . all at once, it was all linked online to a nearby military base.  So, how did Israel explain how no one at the military base noticed?  Did someone step out for unscheduled smoke?  What?

Phite quote      I just have to ask.  If not a bulldozer, what did the Israelis think would be a threat to the wall.  According to you, there was no way to anticipate THAT.  Sure.

 Once again, you are fixated upon the idea that because the Israelis got caught with their pants down, then the Israeli government must be complicit in the massacre of it’s own people. 

You forgot to answer the question of what you believe the Israelis thought might threaten the barrier if not a bulldozer.  So, go ahead and give your best answer as to why the Israelis would never, ever expect that a bulldozer would be the choice to knock the barrier down.  Should be good.

Barnardot

@Phite @Bogan ; I am a racist, and I am proud to be a racist. 

You just got to realize that any one who is racist and boosts about it has only half a brain or only uses half a brain. You have to face sit that the only way to think like that is to accept all the negative information about races and reject all the positives. And in Ossie Land Bogan is the same as a Red Neck is here which explains it all.

Bogan

@Barnardot ;  
 

Try writing an entire 350 word article starting with a clearly stated premise that you are prepared to defend with a reasoned argument.     Writing sneery one liners or simply submitting curt replies dealing entirely in implications is hardly going to impress anybody into thinking you have an opinion worth reading.    Neither is, just continually asking loaded Dorothy Dixer questions.     You may think that it makes you look authoritative, but it just makes you look like an ignorant person winging it to vainly defend a position he passionately holds, but has little knowledge of.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite wrote   Yes.  Perhaps that's what causes you to call all witnesses to the war crime as liars and traitors. 

 Could you please stop putting false words in my mouth?      I did not call your so called “witness” to an alleged Israeli war crime a , I even admitted that it could be true.    What I wrote about was about credibility.      If this “witness” was a Jew who is besmirching his own country, then I do regard him as a traitor.        Traitors have little credibility with me. 

Phite quote       And now, after having heard what those witnesses said, and just how deliberate and ugly the event was, you're left with no alternative but to declare that you're a racist.  And so you did.

 Of course I did.  I am proud of it.   Because I think it equates to the old religious term “heretic”.    Anyone in the middle ages who questioned the so called infallibility of Papal declarations, or questioned church dogma, was a heretic.     Today, the prevailing sacred orthodoxy is anti racism.       This ideology must never be questioned.     And if you ask people who claim to be anti racists, how do they prove their belief that all races are equal, they can not do it.  It is a belief, just the same as the belief in the infallibility of the Pope, the Resurrection, or the Holy Trinity.      The point that I was making, is that I have no problems with people calling me a racist, because that is clearly what I am.     But you think I am abusive for calling you a traitor, which is clearly what you are.

Traitor Noun.  

1.  Someone who violates an allegiance and betrays their country;

2.  someone guilty of treason;

3.  one who, in breach of trust, delivers their country to an enemy,

4. or yields up any fort or place entrusted to their defense,

5.  or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished. quotations ▼

6. Someone who takes arms and levies war against their country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering their country.

7. (by extension) One who betrays any confidence or trust. 

If you support the enemies of your people and the self declared enemies of your civilisation, how are you not a traitor?      Answer the question.   

 

Phite quote  And now the UN is on your list of liars and traitors.  Who didn't see that coming? I'd provide you with more proof, but you'll just put it on your list of things that are contrary to your flawed world view.

 I have already presented to you the example of the UN WHO exonerating Red China from any suggestion that the Wuhan virus came from a leak from  a Chinese bio weapons lab in Wuhan.    .  In addition only this week the UN refused to pass a motion condemning the terrorist attack by HAMAS on innocent Israeli citizens.     The female head of a UN Refugee body, likewise gave a press conference denouncing Israel, not HAMAS.     The UN is now a thoroughly corrupt organisation which should be disbanded.    In it’s place, a more exclusive organisation should be set up called “The United Nations of Democratic Countries.”

 Now, I have answered every one of your questions, sometimes over and over again.    But scrolling forward and I see that you are still refusing to answer the crucial question I demanded that you answer.      Answer the damned question or admit that you are defeated.      I am sick and tired of you simply repeating the same nonsense, over and over again.   

 The question was, why would the Israeli government be complicit in the mass murder and rape, of 1400 of it’s own citizens, including men, women, children, and babies?     Answer the question or go away and take your woke, leftist, neo Marxist propaganda with you. 

Barnardot

@Bogan ;starting with a clearly stated premise that you are prepared to defend with a reasoned argument. 

I did do that so you must of red it with the side of your brain that doesn’t work.

I clearly stated the following premise 

You just got to realize that any one who is racist and boosts about it has only half a brain or only uses half a brain. 

Did I? Yes I did and I am prepared to defend it with reasoned argument. So have you got the guts to defend it? I bet you don’t.

Bogan

@Barnardot

Try writing an entire 350 word article starting with a clearly stated premise that you are prepared to defend with a reasoned argument.     Writing sneery one liners or simply submitting curt replies dealing entirely in implications is hardly going to impress anybody into thinking you have an opinion worth reading.    Neither is, just continually asking loaded Dorothy Dixer questions.     You may think that it makes you look authoritative, but it just makes you look like an ignorant person winging it to vainly defend a position he passionately holds, but has little knowledge of.

Phite

@Bogan

Phite wrote   Yes.  Perhaps that's what causes you to call all witnesses to the war crime as liars and traitors. 

If this “witness” was a Jew who is besmirching his own country, then I do regard him as a traitor.

Since when is telling the truth besmirching a country?

Phite quote       And now, after having heard what those witnesses said, and just how deliberate and ugly the event was, you're left with no alternative but to declare that you're a racist.  And so you did.

 Of course I did.  I am proud of it.

. . .

But you think I am abusive for calling you a traitor, which is clearly what you are.

I didn't say you were abusive.  I said that the Israelis are abusive when they arrest and jail children for throwing a stone.  How am I a traitor for sticking up for kids being jailed?

Phite quote  And now the UN is on your list of liars and traitors.  Who didn't see that coming? I'd provide you with more proof, but you'll just put it on your list of things that are contrary to your flawed world view.

 I have already presented to you the example of . . .

You leave no room for the truth.  And now you've decided that anyone who points out children in Israeli prisons are liars, too.  You may think that disregarding everyone's words but Israel's makes you sound authoritative, but all it does is expose your absolute refusal to hear anything outside your bias.

They do imprison children whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

Bogan

Once again, you are waffling on and refusing to answer the crucial question which you know destroys your entire kooky conspiracy theory.      You will not stop implying that Israel must have known about the forthcoming attack by HAMAS which massacred 1400 Israeli Men, women, children, and babies.       Your "proof" is a series of possible co incidences and little else.       Now, for the third or fourth time, what advantage would accrue to the government and military of Israel to do nothing, if they knew all about a forthcoming attack?      Answer the farking question or withdraw your insane conspiracy theory.

Could I also point out that if the Israeli authorities knew that 2,500 genocidal, bloodthirsty, and rapacious religious nut cases were going to burst out of Gaza and run around in the open on trail bikes and paragliders, away from their human shields, massacring Israeli' people, it would have presented a heaven sent opportunity for the IDF to ambush the bastards, and wipe out the whole bloody lot of them.

Barnardot

@Bogan Yep well all right then like er

Try writing an entire 350 word article starting

Now Im no shrink but even Blind Freddie can see that your entering the territory of psychosis there by repeting the same post in answer to the answer to what your post was. Yikes thats serious business but may be Ill write to the US company that owns Vege Might and tell them to lace it with Ritalin because they know that Bogans will scrape the bottoms of the beer barrells and wack the sludge on there toast. Such is there maturity and sophistication.

Phite

Bogan said:

Once again, you are waffling on and refusing to answer the crucial question which you know destroys your entire kooky conspiracy theory.      You will not stop implying that Israel must have known about the forthcoming attack

I've only presented facts about the security barrier that points to EVERYTHING FAILING AT ONCE.  Not only that, but no one at the military base where everything was linked noticed when it ALL WENT OFFLINE ALL AT ONCE.  When I ask how in hell something like that could have happened, you simply claim it was a surprise attack.  You're not a bit curious about the details of how Hamas accomplished that.  Did you know that Israel posts guards at the fence who will shoot anyone who comes within 300 yards if they're armed, and 100 yards if they're not armed.  How were they "surprised?"

And once again, I'm sorry if the facts point to something that displeases you, but I'm not the one writing that script; the Israelis are.

Bogan

@Phite

I've only presented facts about the security barrier that points to EVERYTHING FAILING AT ONCE.  Not only that, but no one at the military base where everything was linked noticed when it ALL WENT OFFLINE ALL AT ONCE.  When I ask how in hell something like that could have happened, you simply claim it was a surprise attack.  You're not a bit curious about the details of how Hamas accomplished that.  Did you know that Israel posts guards at the fence who will shoot anyone who comes within 300 yards if they're armed, and 100 yards if they're not armed.  How were they "surprised?"

And once again, I'm sorry if the facts point to something that displeases you, but I'm not the one writing that script; the Israelis are.

And by presenting all of these coincidences, and supposedly unexplainable situations, you were clearly implying that Israel was complicit in the massacre of 1400 men, women, children, and babies, as well as the gang rape of it's own female citizens.      It not, why did you not answer me at the beginning of our discussion when I repeatedly asked you "where are you going with this?."

This sort of dishonest debating tactic is called "always imply, but when challenged, deny."

If you think that Israel was complicit in this crime, then just come right out and say it.    But you won't, because it is so potty that even you know that any person reading this exchange would consider you are kook.   And as I have said previously, please keep it up.    I want people who have triple digit IQ's and minds capable of reasoned thought to understand that people like you who support HAMAS are not far seeing social progressives at all.     They are just kooks.

Phite

@Bogan

And once again you've ran to your argument from incredulity.  You really need to look that up.

You've done nothing in this thread but express your frustration at not being able to make a reasoned argument for the failure of . . . everything. You have to do more than simply proclaim that anyone who asks about that massive failure is evil by reason of inquiry.

But yeah, to me it looks pretty suspicious.  If you disagree, offer your reasonable explanation for why it all failed all at once and why no one noticed even though it was linked online to a military base.  "Surprise attack" just doesn't get it.