God is far more evil than the Devil?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; Only the spiritually ignorant and servant of Satan would consider Elohim as evil.

..you will see this again.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; Only the spiritually ignorant and servant of Satan would consider Elohim.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; The Gospel of Thomas is not an inspired work.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; The Gospel of Thomas is not an inspired work.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; God is Spirit and if you desire to know Him, you must worship Him in spirit and in truth by faith in the Son, Jesus Christ.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; God is Spirit and if you desire to know Him, you must worship Him in spirit and in truth by faith in the Son, Jesus Christ.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; There is no Essenes Gospel...that is not an inspired work.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; There is no Essenes Gospel...that is not an inspired work.

"The All is a fountain of light, pure, holy, immaculate. The All is uncontainable, providing for the creation of all things. And all things are part of the All, and the All is part of all things. You must understand that the All is within all things and at the same time outside them." – The Secret Book of John

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; There exists no "secret book of john."

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  Elohim gives life...it is His to take as He wishes...it is your father, the Devil, that is evil as he murders and lies and deceives that which are NOT his creation and laughs at you as his prize example....you are his victory.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; There exists no "secret book of john."

"Whenever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata, And there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth; For the protection of the good, for the destruction of evil-doers, For the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." – Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 4, Verses 7-8

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; There is no life in Gita...if you desire life through the forgiveness of your sin, you must trust in Jesus as there is no other Name given among men by which we must be saved.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;@ZeusAres42

“There is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things” Isaiah 45:6&7

Your god admits it's evil nature ricky.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  If you studied, you would know that the KJV translators mistranslated the Hebrew "ra" in Isaiah 45:7 which is, in context, more accurately translated as disaster or calamity...

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Standard Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

NASB 1995
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NASB 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Legacy Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Producing peace and creating calamity; I am Yahweh who does all these.

Amplified Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.”

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For he formed light and he created darkness, he made peace and he created evil. I AM LORD JEHOVAH, I who have done all these things

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Literal Standard Version
Forming light, and creating darkness, | Making peace, and creating calamity, | I [am] YHWH, doing all these things.

Majority Standard Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New American Bible
I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Revised Standard Version
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

ZeusAres42

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;    

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  If you studied, you would know that the KJV translators mistranslated the Hebrew "ra" in Isaiah 45:7 which is, in context, more accurately translated as disaster or calamity...

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Standard Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

NASB 1995
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NASB 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Legacy Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Producing peace and creating calamity; I am Yahweh who does all these.

Amplified Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.”

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For he formed light and he created darkness, he made peace and he created evil. I AM LORD JEHOVAH, I who have done all these things

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Literal Standard Version
Forming light, and creating darkness, | Making peace, and creating calamity, | I [am] YHWH, doing all these things.

Majority Standard Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New American Bible
I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Revised Standard Version
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

And this folk is using AI to do your trolling for you! Give someone enough rope and they will eventually hang themselves! 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  God does not create Evil...He created everything good...

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder I am a bit bored lol. Most of what I said to him I guess could be seen as a waste of time lol as this guy is gonna get banned again soon. How do I know that? I guess God must be on my side right eh?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  You do have a god on your side and you will see him in Hell...His name is Satan (Revelation 20:10-15). I suggest you repent and trust in Jesus as your Messiah. 

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

And yet your futile rebuttal trying to isolate the KJV as an errant translation you provide evidence that just ain't so...

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For he formed light and he created darkness, he made peace and he created evil. I AM LORD JEHOVAH, I who have done all these things

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

God is far more evil than the Devil!

It turns out that the Devil, traditionally seen as the embodiment of evil, may actually be a friend of us folk, even warning humanity of a deity guilty of obscene moral actions, as stated in some biblical passages and Gnostic interpretations. With God the case exists such as the endorsement of genocide, slavery, and adversity to homosexuals, alongside the relatively limited malevolence of the Devil!

In the Old Testament there are lots of cases where God's actions or commands are extremely disturbing. Instances of genocide (such as the flood in Genesis, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the command to annihilate the Canaanites), endorsements of slavery (Exodus 21:2-6), and statements against homosexuals (Leviticus 18:22) have led scholars to question the actual nature of the God. As such the actions of God can be seen as contradictory to the values of love and compassion often attributed to God (irony right?).

The Devil, on the other hand, as viewed via the lens of Christian tradition as an adversary, is responsible for far fewer deaths in the Bible. The Book of Job is frequently cited, where Satan, with God's permission, inflicts suffering on Job, resulting in the deaths of his children. However, even in this narrative, Satan acts not as an independent agent of evil but within the parameters allowed by God. 

While not religious I have far more respect for Gnosticism, and this doctrine do seem to be onto something regarding the roles of God and the Devil. In some Gnostic texts, the creator god of the material world, often associated with the Old Testament God, is viewed as an ignorant demiurge, distinct from the supreme God of goodness. The serpent in the Garden of Eden, traditionally identified with the Devil, is instead a liberator, offering knowledge to Adam and Eve that frees them from the demiurge's deception. 

In sum, the Devil seems to be a misunderstood figure that is actually warning humanity of the morall wickedness of the Lord! And the wickedness of this lord has continued past biblical times with people doing wicked things as a direct precept of this extremely bad and failed epistimology  - Child mollestation, Wars, Decapitation, babies being sold to USA from Ireland, Kids beaten in convent schools, degradation of women,  Innoenct people put on death row, people being burned alive, kids being bombed to bits, and more! 

Gnostics where considered heretical.  They believed the human body/flesh was evil, therefore it was inconceivable to them that Jesus was God come in the flesh.  Many passages in the gospel of John are specifically written to address their false teaching.

God is the creator and can do to His creation what He wants.  That is not evil.  It is no different than an artist destroying his painting, except an artist much closer to being like their painting, than we are to being like God.  God has every right to punish sin - which is at its very core is treason against the ultimate authority.  What God deems sin is His decision.  Who are we to tell God what is and is not sin.

The charge about slavery is often stated, but it is said in ignorance about what the Bible teaches.  The Bible is about as pro-slavery as it is pro-divorce.  It has rules that protect people but it isn't pro-slavery.  In the case of 'slavery' it is important to point out that the Bible does not endorse chattel slavery.  The word for slave and servant are the same in Hebrew and Greek.  The second most famous miracle in the Bible is the Jews being freed from slavery.  They were not pro-chattel slavery.  The only type of servanthood allowed for Jewish people was by mutual contract.  It could not last more than 6 years and it usually resulted in the person receiving either a large sum, land, or gaining a trade.  It prevented people from starving.  The Bible explicitly calls taking hostages and making someone your 'slave' against their will a sin.  It was punishable by death.

The Bible says that anyone who was a slave/servant and fled their master/boss for any reason is not to be returned to their master/boss - no matter what kind of slave they were.  So if someone left their master/boss for any reason, they were considered and treated as if they were never slaves by the Jews.  Other countries did indeed have chattel slaves.  The rules laid out in the Bible are to protect slaves/servants - there are several that protect them from physical abuse and protect their family and inheritance rights..  Important to note is that Israel spent most of its history as a vassal state and could not control what other suzerains permitted.  Now there is a whole lot more nuance to the issue, I acknowledge that, yet to say the Bible is pro-slavery is an inaccurate claim.

The Bible never makes Satan the equal of God.  In fact, in the final battle in Revelation, it isn't God who fights Satan, but an unnamed angel who chains him and tosses him into hell.  The Bible doesn't have a duality of good and evil.  God is always seen as the ultimate authority.  God may permit Satan to exist, or the existence of evil - that the Bible acknowledges, but God is not responsible for the actions and behaviors of others.  God has given man and Satan free will.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; The KJV is a very poor translation, it was rushed into print and did not take advantage of the best manuscripts...even the New KJV makes the correction concerning Isaiah 45:7.

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

This is why we are commanded to study to show ourselves approved...rightly dividing the word of Truth...you should try this, you might find life? It is true that Elohim does allow evil as it is essential as a default to good/righteousness/holiness...but Elohim does not actively create evil, it exists in response to free will

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; "The One creating light and forming darkness, I make peace and create calamity." New American Standard Version.... Also, consider this: You quoted from that "American Standard Version" that uses the KJV "evil" for "ra" but look at the NEW American Standard Bible (NASB),

A good read for better understanding: https://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

John_C_87

@ZeusAres42
GOD is more evil than the devil,. As is the whole truth is more evil than the devil.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@John_C_87 ; The "Truth" is...if you die without Jesus as your Messiah for the atonement of your sin, you will die in Hell.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@John_C_87 ; The "Truth" is...if you die without Jesus as your Messiah for the atonement of your sin, you will die in Hell.

Yes condemned forever churning out noodles of torment for the great flying spaghetti monster! Ah warms my heart. Signed ricky.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You have condemned yourself in unbelief...you are but a breath away from eternity and you're too arrogant to humble yourself before our Creator and confess your need of Intercession...that's on you tough guy.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You have condemned yourself in unbelief...you are but a breath away from eternity and you're too arrogant to humble yourself before our Creator and confess your need of Intercession...that's on you tough guy.

Ah but I do like spaghetti!

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You'll have a long time to ponder that in Hades before the Judgment.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You'll have a long time to ponder that in Hades before the Judgment.

And santa clause has a long time to make toys and prepare for christmas.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You have condemned yourself in unbelief...you are but a breath away from eternity and you're too arrogant to humble yourself before our Creator and confess your need of Intercession...that's on you tough guy.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Lucky

@RickeyHoltsclaw
You're very lucky aarong tolerates brainwashed evangelical MAGAmaniac trolls.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ;  You're lucky a Christian takes the time to share the Truth with you.

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

Clever. Of course the comeback will be that verse doesn't count here LOL

ZeusAres42

Factfinder said:

@ZeusAres42

Clever. Of course the comeback will be that verse doesn't count here LOL

yeah, he probably will just say wrong translation or some sh!t. It's kinda amusing though now how this guy has gone from preaching and accepting all religious texts at face value to now suggesting that anything, even from his own doctrine is based on some wrong interpretation. Ironically if said this from another doctrine he would just use appeal to faith and that God is the one that only matters or something.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  There is Truth in the Scriptures then there is what you believe...I choose the Scriptures...you choose death.

just_sayin

@ZeusAres42 @RickeyHoltsclaw @Factfinder

Regarding Isaiah 45:7 It isn't that the King James Version translated it wrong - the word can mean either calamity, confusion, or evil.  Its that they choose the wrong meaning for the context- I agree with RickeyHoltsclaw that calamity is the better translation there.  Again, evil is not a created thing.  It is a deprivation of good.  It is like darkness.  Darkness is not a material thing.  It is the deprivation of light.  

I point this out about once a month.  If you believe in objective evil, then that is an evidence for God.  I'm not saying atheists have no morals.  If all that exists is nature, then there really is no such thing as objective evil.  You may not like something, but it is just a personal preference rather than objective evil.  Nature does not have moral intentions.  It is just the reaction of natural processes.  If you believe that there are some things that are truly evil no matter what other people may say, then the only way you get objective evil is by having a good objective lawgiver as the standard of what is right and wrong.  Individuals can have different opinions of what is good or evil - who is to say that your view is any more right than a serial killing child molester.  Especially if you put your trust in a brain that you think was made by only random natural processes without any direction toward 'goodness'.  The only way you can claim that there is true objective evil, is if there is a good objective lawgiver.  

So to speed this debate up.  @ZeusARes42 and @FactFinder, is evil real or not?  Stake your claim.

ZeusAres42

@just_sayin

Sorry bruh, but in case it has missed you Rickey is mocking religion. Either that or he is pathologically insane! I am holding back on engaging in any serious discussion rn until this guy is banned again. Instead of debating me and factfiner how about debating with him? I understand you are religious

@just_sayin but unless it is what Rickey believes in you are ultimately wrong! 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin ;  In context...the proper translation is "calamity." Elohim does not create evil.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@just_sayin ;  In context...the proper translation is "calamity." Elohim does not create evil.

case in point to my prior point @just_sayin

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; @just_sayin ; 

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;  I deny any scrtiptures that I do not like so as to confirm by beleifs that I amalways right

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; If the 1611 KJV translation of Isaiah 45:7 was correct...why did the translators of the New King James change "evil" to "calamity" seeing that the NKJV translators had access to better manuscripts and were NOT rushed to publish the New King James...is this logic too rational for your atheism and arrogance?

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; I hate any scriptures that don't allign with my own warped doctrine. I don't care about logic or wisdom. I have my faith

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Thanks for you honesty bruh @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  I never said quote 1...you're a .

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; I never said quote 1, you're a l-i-a-r.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;  you're welcome. Remember I have my faith, I don't care about logic, truth; none of that matters. 

Ok man

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  You're a l-i-a-r.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;  I am the Devil

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  Satan is your father and you will suffer a fate similar to his in Hell lest you repent.