God is far more evil than the Devil?

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;  Satan is my father and I will suffer a fate similar to his in Hell lest I repent which I will not as I do not need to. My beliefs are the only right ones. 

Ok bruh

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;   I tell you the Truth...at least you should be appreciative...no one else enters here and tells you what you need to hear before it's too late.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; If the 1611 KJV translation of Isaiah 45:7 was correct...why did the translators of the New King James change "evil" to "calamity" seeing that the NKJV translators had access to better manuscripts and were NOT rushed to publish the New King James...is this logic too rational for your atheism and arrogance?

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Or the most likely explanation would be that the cult realized the god they claimed to be good in their book admitted he was a bad, bad, boy. So they immediately set out to fix that in the most convincing way they could and decided to say, 'look, it doesn't mean that, the 'new' manuscript says this... ' but in their haste they failed to make changes in other places in order remain consistent. 

Like this verse in the nkjv:

“Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  If claiming that our Creator creates evil when the evidence of the correction is before you and you believe our Creator condemns you to Hell for no reason..if that somehow justifies your spiritual arrogance and ignorance in your own demonically warped mind...fine. It won't wash when you stand before Jesus at the Judgment. You know better and I have told you.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  If claiming that our Creator creates evil when the evidence of the correction is before you and you believe our Creator condemns you to Hell for no reason..if that somehow justifies your spiritual arrogance and ignorance in your own demonically warped mind...fine. It won't wash when you stand before Jesus at the Judgment. You know better and I have told you.

Evidence for corruption you mean. Corruption for the 'infallible word of god'. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; No "corruption" in the Word or the word...just in your soul and your heart.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; No "corruption" in the Word or the word...just in your soul and your heart.

Nice dodge. If your fantasy book is infallible, why does it need "correction"?

MayCaesar

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ;  Guinness World Records estimates that over five billion copies of the Bible have been sold, making it the best-selling book of all time. Because religious texts are often translated into many foreign languages and distributed widely by churches, however, precise figures are hard to come by. https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/what-is-the-most-popular-book-of-all-time

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ;  Elohim created all things very "good"...the Devil seeks to destroy. It is the fool of the Devil who suggests Elohim is evil as such rhetoric emanates from the spiritually arrogant and ignorant.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

Partially they are. However, nobody claims that parents are omniscient and somehow especially benevolent: they are just humans. They cannot predict consequences of their actions as well as an omniscient being would. Nor did they fully create their children: they conceived and birthed them, but they did not design their genome and everything else.
A better comparison would be a mad scientist creating a factory of robot killers from scratch. Do you think he would not be responsible for the ensuing slaughter?

As for what I prefer - I love freedom. That love does not prevent me from logically understanding that the concept of "free will" makes no sense. We are all products of our chemistry and laws of physics. I am a biological robot, as are you and everyone else. Whether we like it or not, it is what it is. I may not like gravity; does not make me pretend that it does not exist.

Your argument about me benefitting from it is much like Soviet communists saying, "You are guaranteed a job by the government and profit from that job, yet you complain about it? Hypocrite". Or like Western socialists saying that you do not get to complain about taxation when you drive on roads built off taxes. It is a silly argument, and you surely understand why, right?

just_sayin

TRIGGER WARNING!!!!!
The following contains a Bible verse about personal responsibility in the text.  Please read at your own risk of being offended.

MayCaesar said:

Partially they are. However, nobody claims that parents are omniscient and somehow especially benevolent: they are just humans. They cannot predict consequences of their actions as well as an omniscient being would. Nor did they fully create their children: they conceived and birthed them, but they did not design their genome and everything else.

A better comparison would be a mad scientist creating a factory of robot killers from scratch. Do you think he would not be responsible for the ensuing slaughter?

As for what I prefer - I love freedom. That love does not prevent me from logically understanding that the concept of "free will" makes no sense. We are all products of our chemistry and laws of physics. I am a biological robot, as are you and everyone else. Whether we like it or not, it is what it is. I may not like gravity; does not make me pretend that it does not exist.

Your argument about me benefitting from it is much like Soviet communists saying, "You are guaranteed a job by the government and profit from that job, yet you complain about it? Hypocrite". Or like Western socialists saying that you do not get to complain about taxation when you drive on roads built off taxes. It is a silly argument, and you surely understand why, right?

Now don't go blaming God for your own behavior.  As the Bible says:

For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

Sorry @Dreamer, I know that had to hit ya like a snow plow running over a snowman.  I'll add a trigger warning.

God is not responsible for our behavior.  We are. So don't blame God for your choices. God is just, so we will reward each of us according to our own actions.  For Christians, we believe that this world is not the end of our lives, but only the beginning.  

You are free to love and free to hate.  And God is free to be God over it all and hold each of accountable for our conduct.  God is not unjust for doing that.  You are not a mindless robot.  You have the ability to make your own choices. Enjoy the freedom your Creator gave you, but make wise choices.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Now don't go blaming God for your own behavior.  As the Bible says:

For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

Sorry @Dreamer, I know that had to hit ya like a snow plow running over a snowman.  I'll add a trigger warning.

God is not responsible for our behavior.  We are. So don't blame God for your choices. God is just, so we will reward each of us according to our own actions.  For Christians, we believe that this world is not the end of our lives, but only the beginning.  

You are free to love and free to hate.  And God is free to be God over it all and hold each of accountable for our conduct.  God is not unjust for doing that.  You are not a mindless robot.  You have the ability to make your own choices. Enjoy the freedom your Creator gave you, but make wise choices.

I cannot blame something that I do not believe exists. My point is that if god did exist, she would have to take responsibility for the consequences of his design. Much like if you design a poor bridge and the bridge collapses, it is on you, not on those who drove over that bridge. If I am designed by god, then I am the bridge. The bridge just does what it is built to do, and its "free will" is an unnecessary abstraction.

If you know anything about me, you know that I always take 100% responsibility for everything that happens in my life, whether I have any degree of control over it or not. But it is not me we are talking about here; it is about god and what she is responsible for. She does not get to create humanity the way she did, then have humanity engage in things like Holocaust and Holodomor, then shrug and say, "Oh, I had nothing to do with that. I gave them free will, and look what they did". What kind of a brainless designer is it that can create such complex beings, but cannot predict what those beings are going to do?

Create humans, give them the ability to kill and enslave each other, put them on a limited territory with scarce resources, and make their survival dependent on controlling those resources... What could go wrong, right?

ZeusAres42

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

Factfinder

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I've maintained biblical freewill is a delusion. Worship me or else...yeah freewill alright. NOT!

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

Now don't go blaming God for your own behavior.  As the Bible says:

For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT

Sorry @Dreamer, I know that had to hit ya like a snow plow running over a snowman.  I'll add a trigger warning.

God is not responsible for our behavior.  We are. So don't blame God for your choices. God is just, so we will reward each of us according to our own actions.  For Christians, we believe that this world is not the end of our lives, but only the beginning.  

You are free to love and free to hate.  And God is free to be God over it all and hold each of accountable for our conduct.  God is not unjust for doing that.  You are not a mindless robot.  You have the ability to make your own choices. Enjoy the freedom your Creator gave you, but make wise choices.

I cannot blame something that I do not believe exists. My point is that if god did exist, she would have to take responsibility for the consequences of his design. Much like if you design a poor bridge and the bridge collapses, it is on you, not on those who drove over that bridge. If I am designed by god, then I am the bridge. The bridge just does what it is built to do, and its "free will" is an unnecessary abstraction.

If you know anything about me, you know that I always take 100% responsibility for everything that happens in my life, whether I have any degree of control over it or not. But it is not me we are talking about here; it is about god and what she is responsible for. She does not get to create humanity the way she did, then have humanity engage in things like Holocaust and Holodomor, then shrug and say, "Oh, I had nothing to do with that. I gave them free will, and look what they did". What kind of a brainless designer is it that can create such complex beings, but cannot predict what those beings are going to do?

Create humans, give them the ability to kill and enslave each other, put them on a limited territory with scarce resources, and make their survival dependent on controlling those resources... What could go wrong, right? 

   

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I'm not sure you understand how free will works.  You want a world with free will where it is never exercised nor permitted to be used.  You are asking for a logically impossible thing.  Its like asking for a square circle.  We like to think that 'evil' is out there.  The reality is that it is within us, our desires, and our choices.  If free will exists then the possibility exists that someone will use it in a way that disagrees with God' s will.  God could have made you without free will.  You would be compelled to do what He wanted at all times.  Indeed that world could exist.  The question would be why would God create a world with free will when he knows some will make evil choices.  I believe it reflects God's view of love, which needs free will to truly be expressed.  

Without God, there can be no objective evil.  Nature, if that is all there is, has no moral intentions.  Things just are reactions to the forces exerted on them.  Your very mind, would then be the product of imperfect natural processes that don't care about moral intentions, only reacting to the environment around it.  The fact that you think that your brain created by nature can even tell you what is good or evil, would then be logically inconsistent.  How can you depend upon that which was made by random processes to be dependable.  Answer - you can't.  Evil in a world without God is just your opinion, and who is to say that your opinion has any more validity than a pedophile's or serial murderers?  Answer, you can't make that assertion.  So, if you are conceding that objective evil exist, then you are admitting that an objective lawgiver exists.  I accept you admission that God exists.  

ZeusAres42

@just_sayin

Well I don't think you understood my argument. Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. Either way, if you care to address the actual content of my argument then I'd be happy to reposnd.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I've maintained biblical freewill is a delusion. Worship me or else...yeah freewill alright. NOT!

You have confused free will with the consequences of those actions.  Just because you are free to do as you please does not mean there are not consequences for one's actions.  This seems to be more of a problem with your understanding of concepts than an actual contradiction.  

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

@just_sayin

Well I don't think you understood my argument. Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. Either way, if you care to address the actual content of my argument then I'd be happy to reposnd.

Feel free to elaborate.  You have requested God do something illogical and contradictory.  You want a world where free will exists, but is not permitted by God to happen.  That's a logical contradiction.  If God permits free will but people can't exercise free will, then does free will really exist?  Further it seems to me that you have mistakenly assumed that natural events are 'evil'.  Again, hurricanes, volcanos, asteroids, tsunamis may be undesirable, but nature has no intentions.  God allowing nature to follow nature's laws is not evil, its just your personal dislike of it.  God as creator, could do whatever he wanted with His creation.  It is within his rights.  If an artist destroyed their own painting, it is not 'evil'.  You may not like it, but they had the right to do with it what they wanted.  

I'm going to point this out to you and then call you on it every time you do it.  You want to appeal to a moral system dependent upon an understanding that God exists, but then claim God doesn't exist.  If that is what you believe, then you can't claim 'evil' as anything more than personal preference.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

@just_sayin

Well I don't think you understood my argument. Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. Either way, if you care to address the actual content of my argument then I'd be happy to reposnd.

Feel free to elaborate.  You have requested God do something illogical and contradictory.  You want a world where free will exists, but is not permitted by God to happen.  That's a logical contradiction.  If God permits free will but people can't exercise free will, then does free will really exist?  Further it seems to me that you have mistakenly assumed that natural events are 'evil'.  Again, hurricanes, volcanos, asteroids, tsunamis may be undesirable, but nature has no intentions.  God allowing nature to follow nature's laws is not evil, its just your personal dislike of it.  God as creator, could do whatever he wanted with His creation.  It is within his rights.  If an artist destroyed their own painting, it is not 'evil'.  You may not like it, but they had the right to do with it what they wanted.  

I'm going to point this out to you and then call you on it every time you do it.  You want to appeal to a moral system dependent upon an understanding that God exists, but then claim God doesn't exist.  If that is what you believe, then you can't claim 'evil' as anything more than personal preference.  

You do realize an artist that destroys their own paintings are the quintessential example of lunacy, right?

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Feel free to elaborate.  You have requested God do something illogical and contradictory.  You want a world where free will exists, but is not permitted by God to happen.  That's a logical contradiction.  If God permits free will but people can't exercise free will, then does free will really exist?  Further it seems to me that you have mistakenly assumed that natural events are 'evil'.  Again, hurricanes, volcanos, asteroids, tsunamis may be undesirable, but nature has no intentions.  God allowing nature to follow nature's laws is not evil, its just your personal dislike of it.  God as creator, could do whatever he wanted with His creation.  It is within his rights.  If an artist destroyed their own painting, it is not 'evil'.  You may not like it, but they had the right to do with it what they wanted.  

I'm going to point this out to you and then call you on it every time you do it.  You want to appeal to a moral system dependent upon an understanding that God exists, but then claim God doesn't exist.  If that is what you believe, then you can't claim 'evil' as anything more than personal preference.  

@ZeusAres42 is right: as you frequently do, you misrepresent the opponent's argument so it is easier to criticize. Omnipotence in combination with omnibenevolence implies the ability (and willingness) to create a world in which humans can exercise free will, yet evil is non-existent. Humans could make a lot of choices, but inducing suffering in others could be physically impossible in such a world. Imagine, for example, a world that is exactly the same as ours, only humans never starve to death - it can be made so by simply taking away the need to consume food to survive (humans could, say, directly acquire nutrition from the environment through their skin). That would be a world in which there would be less suffering, and less ability to do evil - and that would make humans freer to exercise their free will, for they would be able to get away with a larger variety of actions. 
Now, loop over every single instance of a human suffering - and you can imagine a world in which this would be impossible. It would be a world in which people still could make choices, they just would not be able to, say, slaughter millions by choice.

You said something interesting though: that god allowing nature to hurt humans is not evil. If deliberately building a world in which nature consistently hurts humans is not evil, then what is? It seems to me that you can attribute "evil" to humans without attributing it to god only by explicitly defining "evil" as something that only humans can create. When a god does something nasty, it cannot be evil by definition.
But that is a silly definition. It is like saying, "I define everyone who murders someone a murderer, except for me - when I murder someone, I am not a murderer, but a saint". Not a very useful definition, you see. Good definitions apply universally and do not depend on who uses them.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I've maintained biblical freewill is a delusion. Worship me or else...yeah freewill alright. NOT!

You have confused free will with the consequences of those actions.  Just because you are free to do as you please does not mean there are not consequences for one's actions.  This seems to be more of a problem with your understanding of concepts than an actual contradiction.  

Not even close . Your bible god created hell knowing it would create beings that would go there before they were even born. People of freewill would be able to say 'thanks god for life, now bug off'. Without recourse and punishment from god. They do not will to go to hell, they're sent there by a petulant god who demands worship or else. The egotistical being equates people that says no thanks to lunacy with murders and thieves. Just because they don't want to sing 'alleluia' to a self absorbed genocidal maniac forever.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I've maintained biblical freewill is a delusion. Worship me or else...yeah freewill alright. NOT!

You have confused free will with the consequences of those actions.  Just because you are free to do as you please does not mean there are not consequences for one's actions.  This seems to be more of a problem with your understanding of concepts than an actual contradiction.  

Not even close . Your bible god created hell knowing it would create beings that would go there before they were even born. People of freewill would be able to say 'thanks god for life, now bug off'. Without recourse and punishment from god. They do not will to go to hell, they're sent there by a petulant god who demands worship or else. The egotistical being equates people that says no thanks to lunacy with murders and thieves. Just because they don't want to sing 'alleluia' to a self absorbed genocidal maniac forever.

Whoa!  You are under the mistaken notion that free will means that you are God's equal and that you shouldn't have any consequences for your actions.  You are the created, not the creator. God gave you free will, and if you don't want to live your life with God in it, God allows you to do that.  But that does not follow that you get to decide for God who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  You enjoy your free will, you just don't like the fact that there are consequences for actions and choices.  

What would be unjust and messed up is if God made you go to heaven and be with Him when you don't want Him in your life.  God gave you a choice in the matter.  If you don't want to spend your life with God in it, then you will spend your eternity without God in it.  Would you think it just for a man to force his ex to live with him?  Nope.  She is free to live without him in her life.  Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one. 

GiantMan

ZeusAres42 said:

@just_sayin

Well I don't think you understood my argument. Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. Either way, if you care to address the actual content of my argument then I'd be happy to reposnd.

He gets your argument.  It just isn't a good one.

GiantMan

just_sayin said:

  Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one. 

Great comment.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

Exactly. Hence why I am not responding. He basically just repeated the same strawman. I don't really see the logic in responding to arguments never made by oneself. I guess it was decided by him to continue to avoid the content of my message. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said: @MayCaesar Exactly. Hence why I am not responding. He basically just repeated the same strawman. I don't really see the logic in responding to arguments never made by oneself. I guess it was decided by him to continue to avoid the content of my message.  @Factfinder

Factfinder said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I've maintained biblical freewill is a delusion. Worship me or else...yeah freewill alright. NOT!

@Factfinder ;  yet you retain the free will to choose life or death even when you don't like the choice?

ZeusAres42

Well, tbh I was responding on the fly as of little time. I am usually a bit more patient. Nonetheless, later I will detail more the examination of why the argument regarding free will being a justification for evil in the sense of the aforementioned argument/s does not hold up under closer scrutiny. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

Well, tbh I was responding on the fly as of little time. I am usually a bit more patient. Nonetheless, later I will detail more the examination of why the argument regarding free will being a justification for evil in the sense of the aforementioned argument/s does not hold up under closer scrutiny. 

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ;     Righteousness exists; Evil exists; free will exists. If evil does not exist as a default to righteousness there is no free will because only righteousness exists but we see evil existing all around us; therefore, the one who engages in evil has made an affirmative choice to reject righteousness, yes? 

Righteousness and Evil, one's participation in same, is regulated by the human conscience as the free will choice of choosing what is good is regulated by the conscience while the free will choice to reject what is good is regulated by the conscience and humanity, a free moral agent, is free to choose good, evil; in some scenarios, neutrality and neutrality can be defined as good or evil contingent upon context, yes?

When one rejects what is good and good is defined by the conscience, that rejection of what is good can default to neutrality as the individual makes the free will choice to remain neutral on a particular subject by not engaging in the behavior...a free will choice of neutrality has manifest - or - if a free will choice is made to reject what is good and they make the free will choice to not remain neutral (or neutrality is not an option) their free will choice to reject what is good defaults to engaging in what is evil; hence, a free will choice to engage in evil called mens rea (the guilty mind). 

Mens Rea is often times an element of criminal law that must be proved by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt; that is, the prosecution is tasked with proving that the defendant knowingly and willingly engaged in a particular conduct; this, by free will...not coercion, not by accident, but with intent; otherwise, if intent cannot be established; that is, the defendant did not engage in the conduct via a free will "choice," there are lesser degrees of culpability that must be entertained by the Charging Instrument.  

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

ZeusAres42 said:

Well, tbh I was responding on the fly as of little time. I am usually a bit more patient. Nonetheless, later I will detail more the examination of why the argument regarding free will being a justification for evil in the sense of the aforementioned argument/s does not hold up under closer scrutiny. 

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ;     Righteousness exists; Evil exists; free will exists. If evil does not exist as a default to righteousness there is no free will because only righteousness exists but we see evil existing all around us; therefore, the one who engages in evil has made an affirmative choice to reject righteousness, yes? 

Righteousness and Evil, one's participation in same, is regulated by the human conscience as the free will choice of choosing what is good is regulated by the conscience while the free will choice to reject what is good is regulated by the conscience and humanity, a free moral agent, is free to choose good, evil; in some scenarios, neutrality and neutrality can be defined as good or evil contingent upon context, yes?

When one rejects what is good and good is defined by the conscience, that rejection of what is good can default to neutrality as the individual makes the free will choice to remain neutral on a particular subject by not engaging in the behavior...a free will choice of neutrality has manifest - or - if a free will choice is made to reject what is good and they make the free will choice to not remain neutral (or neutrality is not an option) their free will choice to reject what is good defaults to engaging in what is evil; hence, a free will choice to engage in evil called mens rea (the guilty mind). 

Mens Rea is often times an element of criminal law that must be proved by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt; that is, the prosecution is tasked with proving that the defendant knowingly and willingly engaged in a particular conduct; this, by free will...not coercion, not by accident, but with intent; otherwise, if intent cannot be established; that is, the defendant did not engage in the conduct via a free will "choice," there are lesser degrees of culpability that must be entertained by the Charging Instrument.  

Your reasoning falls apart because first you assert a god exist, then claim it to be good, then claim that's where good comes from and resistance to this good defaults to evil. Well none of that has been proven.

Then you use the legal system as an analogy for your argument. But the proof the prosecution has to satisfy is under the written established rule of law, not any criteria for freewill; or notions of inherent righteousness determining good and evil by its mere presence. Furthermore your analogy if anything points to freewill being suppressed, that conduct not allowed. Don't do it or else. Your god says believe or else. Neither one suggest freewill. And it's not even concerned about bad deeds, you profess on your death bed and you're in. All that matters is believe or else. No freewill involved.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Whoa!  You are under the mistaken notion that free will means that you are God's equal and that you shouldn't have any consequences for your actions.  You are the created, not the creator. God gave you free will, and if you don't want to live your life with God in it, God allows you to do that.  But that does not follow that you get to decide for God who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  You enjoy your free will, you just don't like the fact that there are consequences for actions and choices.  

What would be unjust and messed up is if God made you go to heaven and be with Him when you don't want Him in your life.  God gave you a choice in the matter.  If you don't want to spend your life with God in it, then you will spend your eternity without God in it.  Would you think it just for a man to force his ex to live with him?  Nope.  She is free to live without him in her life.  Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one. 

What seems messed up to me is the assumption that just because someone does not want you in their life, they deserve to rot in hell. It is like me asking a girl out, getting rejected, then kidnapping her and putting her in a torture chamber: "How dare you reject me!" See how horrific god's actions appear if humans mirror them?

For some reason, as I mentioned in my previous comment, you are okay with god committing many actions that, when committed by humans, are viewed as atrocities. Since a human condemning another human for years of torture is seen as evil, why would a god who intentionally does that not be evil from the human's perspective?

Honestly, Biblical god comes across as the pettiest prick in the Universe ("meta-verse", whatever you call the world in your conception). "You do not want me in you life? How dare you! Here is eternity in hell for you!" Why would anyone worship a F-d up creature like this?

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

Whoa!  You are under the mistaken notion that free will means that you are God's equal and that you shouldn't have any consequences for your actions.  You are the created, not the creator. God gave you free will, and if you don't want to live your life with God in it, God allows you to do that.  But that does not follow that you get to decide for God who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  You enjoy your free will, you just don't like the fact that there are consequences for actions and choices.  

What would be unjust and messed up is if God made you go to heaven and be with Him when you don't want Him in your life.  God gave you a choice in the matter.  If you don't want to spend your life with God in it, then you will spend your eternity without God in it.  Would you think it just for a man to force his ex to live with him?  Nope.  She is free to live without him in her life.  Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one. 

What seems messed up to me is the assumption that just because someone does not want you in their life, they deserve to rot in hell. It is like me asking a girl out, getting rejected, then kidnapping her and putting her in a torture chamber: "How dare you reject me!" See how horrific god's actions appear if humans mirror them?

For some reason, as I mentioned in my previous comment, you are okay with god committing many actions that, when committed by humans, are viewed as atrocities. Since a human condemning another human for years of torture is seen as evil, why would a god who intentionally does that not be evil from the human's perspective?

Honestly, Biblical god comes across as the pettiest prick in the Universe ("meta-verse", whatever you call the world in your conception). "You do not want me in you life? How dare you! Here is eternity in hell for you!" Why would anyone worship a F-d up creature like this?

@MayCaesar ;  What you do not realize is you're NOT our Creator...You're NOT Elohim...You're NOT God...and you're NOT in authority over Time, Eternity, Eschatology...you're here as a warrior in the midst of an unfathomable spiritual war that was initiated before matter, Time, were created. You are a delicate pawn in this war that plays-out around us, through us, 24/7/365 and you have been provided the free will choice to ally with Elohim through faith in Jesus in victory - or - you can ally with Satan and suffer a fate similar to his subsequent adjudication (Revelation 20:10-15).

Yes, I understand you don't approve of the current state of affairs and you consider your Creator a "prick" but "it is what it is" and the choices you make now have everlasting ramifications. You possess the free will to choose life or choose death and you can kick, stomp, fight, argue, hate, condemn, cry, wail, moan, ridicule, deny and obfuscate, but fact is, you have but ONE option that is wise and honorable, choose life in Jesus, humble yourself before your Creator...admit you need an Intercessor for your sin, confess with your mouth...believe in your heart that Jesus is our Messiah who died to provide blood atonement for your sin and find victory in Him by faith, alone.

Jesus said,

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The title claim in this thread is that "God if far more evil than the devil". What I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, is irrelevant. The claim is that if god exists and is what the Bible claims it is, then it is a strongly evil creature, and so far every argument in opposition to this claim has seemed to only further support this claim. "No, god is not evil, he just wants you to kiss his feet, otherwise suffer for eternity" - that does little to defend god from criticism, but does a lot to show what kind of people defend said god.

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The title claim in this thread is that "God if far more evil than the devil". What I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, is irrelevant. The claim is that if god exists and is what the Bible claims it is, then it is a strongly evil creature, and so far every argument in opposition to this claim has seemed to only further support this claim. "No, god is not evil, he just wants you to kiss his feet, otherwise suffer for eternity" - that does little to defend god from criticism, but does a lot to show what kind of people defend said god.

@MayCaesar ;   There was no evil until the one you serve introduced evil into the Spiritual Realm and into the Realm of Time and physics. Elohim did not initiate that evil nor did He desire its presence; unfortunately, evil exists as a default of free will and free will is essential for authentic love and intimacy to exist with reciprocity between Elohim and His created angelic and human creation. Love cannot be forced, coerced, love cannot exist in an atmosphere of fear and trembling...love must be desired and flow naturally and this mandates purity of emotion and free will...the ability to choose relationship or reject same.

Elohim created everything "good" and it is the one you serve with your mind, body and spirit that defiles that goodness with evil and everything Elohim has done that you use as evidence to accuse our Creator is simply a response to the evil introduced by the one you serve. Can you demonstrate anything that Elohim has done throughout Biblical history that you would consider "evil" that was not directly in response to evil itself?

Elohim is the definition of pure LOVE and YES...for some unknown reason He desperately desires intimacy and personal relationship with His angelic and human creation and He gave Himself through suffering and death on a Roman Cross to restore all things back to Himself as He endeavors to right the wrong infused by the one you serve, daily. 

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

"Love cannot be forced, coerced, love cannot exist in an atmosphere of fear and trembling... So love me, or suffer in hell for eternity!

"I did not create evil. I just created free will a byproduct of which is evil!"

Your "Elohim" is quite a genius.

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

"Love cannot be forced, coerced, love cannot exist in an atmosphere of fear and trembling... So love me, or suffer in hell for eternity!

"I did not create evil. I just created free will a byproduct of which is evil!"

Your "Elohim" is quite a genius.

@MayCaesar....  Hell was NOT created for you...Hell was created specifically for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41). You will enter Hell by choice, NOT by our Creator's will as His will is that you be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus and live with Him eternally in victory (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

Evil is a default of Righteousness-Good; otherwise, there could be no legitimate good and there could not be any form of legitimate righteousness due the necessity of free will...righteousness must be chosen, obedience must be a desire of the heart and conscience and lest a polar opposite exists in reality, free will is made impotent and relationship nihilistic. 

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

Whoa!  You are under the mistaken notion that free will means that you are God's equal and that you shouldn't have any consequences for your actions.  You are the created, not the creator. God gave you free will, and if you don't want to live your life with God in it, God allows you to do that.  But that does not follow that you get to decide for God who goes to heaven and who doesn't.  You enjoy your free will, you just don't like the fact that there are consequences for actions and choices.  

What would be unjust and messed up is if God made you go to heaven and be with Him when you don't want Him in your life.  God gave you a choice in the matter.  If you don't want to spend your life with God in it, then you will spend your eternity without God in it.  Would you think it just for a man to force his ex to live with him?  Nope.  She is free to live without him in her life.  Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one. 

What seems messed up to me is the assumption that just because someone does not want you in their life, they deserve to rot in hell. It is like me asking a girl out, getting rejected, then kidnapping her and putting her in a torture chamber: "How dare you reject me!" See how horrific god's actions appear if humans mirror them?

For some reason, as I mentioned in my previous comment, you are okay with god committing many actions that, when committed by humans, are viewed as atrocities. Since a human condemning another human for years of torture is seen as evil, why would a god who intentionally does that not be evil from the human's perspective?

Honestly, Biblical god comes across as the pettiest prick in the Universe ("meta-verse", whatever you call the world in your conception). "You do not want me in you life? How dare you! Here is eternity in hell for you!" Why would anyone worship a F-d up creature like this?

You have mistaken the difference between us and God.  You and I are equals.  How I treat you is based on that relationship.  God and us are not on the same level.  God is far above us.  You wouldn't think it wrong to wash your hands and kill thousands of microbial life forms.  Just know you are a whole like closer to that microbial life form, than you are to God.  God can give life and take it.  Its his creation, not yours.  He can do with it as He sees fit.  You seem to think that God is bound by the same rules as you.  He is not because he is the creator, and you are His creation.  

Regarding God punishing people.  You argued that you didn't want God in your life.  Hell grants you your eternal wish.  Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me?  Why do you think your disdain for God will change in hell?  Do you think you'll finally want to follow Him in hell?  If not, don't get mad at him for punishing sin, which is essentially treason because it is a rejection of God's authority, for your punishment.  God provided you with opportunities along the way to respond to him.  Don't get mad at him for giving you a future without God, that you wanted.

MayCaesar

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Hell was created not for me, but for one of the angels who dared to oppose god - which makes it so much better, of course *snicker* - however, I will still end up there, and it is my fault and not god's, because god created it, and...
I think I will need to hit myself in the head with a hammer at least 200 times for any of this to start sounding sensible.

just_sayin said:You have mistaken the difference between us and God.  You and I are equals.  How I treat you is based on that relationship.  God and us are not on the same level.  God is far above us.  You wouldn't think it wrong to wash your hands and kill thousands of microbial life forms.  Just know you are a whole like closer to that microbial life form, than you are to God.  God can give life and take it.  Its his creation, not yours.  He can do with it as He sees fit.  You seem to think that God is bound by the same rules as you.  He is not because he is the creator, and you are His creation.  

Regarding God punishing people.  You argued that you didn't want God in your life.  Hell grants you your eternal wish.  Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me?  Why do you think your disdain for God will change in hell?  Do you think you'll finally want to follow Him in hell?  If not, don't get mad at him for punishing sin, which is essentially treason because it is a rejection of God's authority, for your punishment.  God provided you with opportunities along the way to respond to him.  Don't get mad at him for giving you a future without God, that you wanted.

I do not know what it means to be "above" someone. When I kill microbes, I do not claim that I am benevolent towards microbes - I am indifferent towards them. But does the Bible not claim that god loves his children? If I loved microbial forms to the extent that the god claims to love his children, I would kill myself right here right now, as I would not be able to live with myself. And if I had created literal hell for microbes where they go after they die to suffer for eternity... why, I would see myself as the greatest villain ever to appear in this Universe.
It seems to me that god gives much fewer F-s about his creations. From the human perspective we would say that god is extremely evil. And I do not see the point of talking about "evil" from any other perspective given that it is inaccessible to us. And if you extent your reasoning further, then you should not be able to call anyone's actions evil but yourselves, because, at the end of the day, no one is equal to you. All humans are different. I am different from you: you cannot know what it is like to be me, and you cannot see the world from my perspective - so if I slaughter a village, how could you call my actions evil?

I have no "disdain for god". I just do not care about him if he exists, and especially do not care about him if he does not exist. Is it too much to ask of such an omni-wise being to just let me be as I let him and his followers be? I do not "get mad" at something I do not believe exists - I am just saying that your god appears to be a pretty twisted creature, and why you would want to worship something that is so set out to make you lick his feet so you escape his punishment, I have no idea. It seems to me that the only valid reason would be fear, much like slaves fear their slavemasters. Fair enough, but I do not know anyone who glorifies slaves worshipping their master - so, again, it appears that we are dealing with something extremely sick and twisted here. And glorifying actions caused by fear seems extremely pathetic and cowardly to me.

That the Biblical god appears so evil does not bother me nearly as much as the fact that so many of his followers love him for it. Loving someone for enslaving you - that is just... well, I guess it is pretty human, is it not?

RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Hell was created not for me, but for one of the angels who dared to oppose god - which makes it so much better, of course *snicker* - however, I will still end up there, and it is my fault and not god's, because god created it, and...
I think I will need to hit myself in the head with a hammer at least 200 times for any of this to start sounding sensible.

just_sayin said:You have mistaken the difference between us and God.  You and I are equals.  How I treat you is based on that relationship.  God and us are not on the same level.  God is far above us.  You wouldn't think it wrong to wash your hands and kill thousands of microbial life forms.  Just know you are a whole like closer to that microbial life form, than you are to God.  God can give life and take it.  Its his creation, not yours.  He can do with it as He sees fit.  You seem to think that God is bound by the same rules as you.  He is not because he is the creator, and you are His creation.  

Regarding God punishing people.  You argued that you didn't want God in your life.  Hell grants you your eternal wish.  Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me?  Why do you think your disdain for God will change in hell?  Do you think you'll finally want to follow Him in hell?  If not, don't get mad at him for punishing sin, which is essentially treason because it is a rejection of God's authority, for your punishment.  God provided you with opportunities along the way to respond to him.  Don't get mad at him for giving you a future without God, that you wanted.

I do not know what it means to be "above" someone. When I kill microbes, I do not claim that I am benevolent towards microbes - I am indifferent towards them. But does the Bible not claim that god loves his children? If I loved microbial forms to the extent that the god claims to love his children, I would kill myself right here right now, as I would not be able to live with myself. And if I had created literal hell for microbes where they go after they die to suffer for eternity... why, I would see myself as the greatest villain ever to appear in this Universe.
It seems to me that god gives much fewer F-s about his creations. From the human perspective we would say that god is extremely evil. And I do not see the point of talking about "evil" from any other perspective given that it is inaccessible to us. And if you extent your reasoning further, then you should not be able to call anyone's actions evil but yourselves, because, at the end of the day, no one is equal to you. All humans are different. I am different from you: you cannot know what it is like to be me, and you cannot see the world from my perspective - so if I slaughter a village, how could you call my actions evil?

I have no "disdain for god". I just do not care about him if he exists, and especially do not care about him if he does not exist. Is it too much to ask of such an omni-wise being to just let me be as I let him and his followers be? I do not "get mad" at something I do not believe exists - I am just saying that your god appears to be a pretty twisted creature, and why you would want to worship something that is so set out to make you lick his feet so you escape his punishment, I have no idea. It seems to me that the only valid reason would be fear, much like slaves fear their slavemasters. Fair enough, but I do not know anyone who glorifies slaves worshipping their master - so, again, it appears that we are dealing with something extremely sick and twisted here. And glorifying actions caused by fear seems extremely pathetic and cowardly to me.

That the Biblical god appears so evil does not bother me nearly as much as the fact that so many of his followers love him for it. Loving someone for enslaving you - that is just... well, I guess it is pretty human, is it not?

@MayCaesar ;   Again, May...you don't understand why you are here, what has transpired that our Creator opted to create an alternate repository for an unfathomable war initiated by a rebellious cherub and the one-third of the angelic creation that followed in the rebellion. 

I do understand that it's difficult for you, an intellectual, to wrap your head around these things...I understand...I was there as well though I've never considered myself an intellectual ...but I must admit, the difference being, I could never deny the reality of a Creator...even as a child the night sky baffled me in wonder...in my innocence...I knew there was something or someone unfathomable "out there"....it was not until many years later that I, by happen-chance...or at least I thought, met a 90+ year old Messianic Priest and his entourage on my trip to Chicago. 

We sat and discussed "Yeshua"...all I knew is what I had been told that Jesus is Lord...his questions challenged me...I'm a Type-A personality...or at least I was then...I was upset that I could not answer his theological questions so out of pride, I visited a nearby bookstore and purchased a copy of the "Living Bible"...a paraphrased version of the Scriptures. I sat down on a couch in a small Chicago suburb apartment and began reading the New Testament...halfway through my first read my life has never been the same....that was approximately 35-years ago. 

A beautiful wife, three-beautiful children and one-grandson later...I am so glad that Jesus is my Lord and the Holy Spirit resides within me...I might not be the most loving Christian and my old Marine and Law Enforcement ways are a bit rough...as is my temper from time to time...but Jesus has been incredibly faithful through all and the Holy Spirit has never left me or forsaken me, even in my worst times.

You would be wise to sit quietly, uninterrupted, and carefully-prayerfully read through the 21-chapters of the Gospel of John in the New Testament...at least know what you're rejecting. 

 

ZeusAres42

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

If God is omnipotent, he has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within his nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is contradictory. Put simply, the idea that free will even within religious texts is a justification of all of the evils in the world (including those without human input) does not hold up under closer scrutinity.   

@Just_Sayin

I'm not sure you understand how free will works.  You want a world with free will where it is never exercised nor permitted to be used.  You are asking for a logically impossible thing.  Its like asking for a square circle.  We like to think that 'evil' is out there.  The reality is that it is within us, our desires, and our choices.  If free will exists then the possibility exists that someone will use it in a way that disagrees with God' s will.  God could have made you without free will.  You would be compelled to do what He wanted at all times.  Indeed that world could exist.  The question would be why would God create a world with free will when he knows some will make evil choices.  I believe it reflects God's view of love, which needs free will to truly be expressed.  

Without God, there can be no objective evil.  Nature, if that is all there is, has no moral intentions.  Things just are reactions to the forces exerted on them.  Your very mind, would then be the product of imperfect natural processes that don't care about moral intentions, only reacting to the environment around it.  The fact that you think that your brain created by nature can even tell you what is good or evil, would then be logically inconsistent.  How can you depend upon that which was made by random processes to be dependable.  Answer - you can't.  Evil in a world without God is just your opinion, and who is to say that your opinion has any more validity than a pedophile's or serial murderers?  Answer, you can't make that assertion.  So, if you are conceding that objective evil exist, then you are admitting that an objective lawgiver exists.  I accept you admission that God exists.  

Okay, now that I have a bit more time, I will respond to you. First, I will address and remove the strawman argument you've attributed to me by clarifying my actual position. Nowhere in my critique of your argument do I suggest or imply an advocacy for a world where free will is never exercised. Even within this strawman of yours, there are numerous logical issues, but I do not want to get sidetracked. Since my position critiques your argument, which heavily relies on the concept of free will as a justification for the existence of evil—suggesting that God gave humans free will, and therefore, He is not responsible for the evil actions they choose—I will continue along those lines.

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

Curious how it works. On one hand, god created the world and everything in it. On the other, he is not responsible for the evil in the world. Hmm...

Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"

I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.

Why is this curious to you?  Do you think parents are responsible for the actions of their adult children?  God created man with free will.  How is this equivalent to dropping a bomb?  What a leap to the illogical.  Without free will there is no true love.  Compelled love is not true love.  Any world without free will would be a world without love.  Would you prefer that?  I know that I'd rather be in a world with love than one without.  Would you rather be an automaton where your every action must be pre-approved or would you rather be able to make your own decisions?  It seems to me that you are condemning God for making a world with free will, while personally benefiting from the free will he created and personally preferring it.  Kinda hypocritical in my opinion. Are you now going to exercise your free will and tell me how bad it is?  LOL.  Go ahead.

Okay, this was the argument I was examining. As stated, if God is omnipotent, He has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within His nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God appears contradictory. Again, this has nothing to do with desiring a world where free will is never exercised. In case you missed it, MayCaesar actually grasped this concept and was able to elaborate on it. What's going on here is a deeper exploration regarding the compatibility of God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence with the existence of evil, and thus God's accountability. There indeed appear to be issues here. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, by definition, would possess both the power to create a world where free will does not lead to evil and the desire to prevent unnecessary suffering.

Furthermore, parental responsibility is not analogous to divine responsibility; far from it. Unlike humans, God is omniscient (all-knowing) and capable of foreseeing the outcomes of His creations' actions. Moreover, God's omnipotence means he has the power to intervene or guide His creations in a way that parents of adult children can't.

You also fail to address natural evil (which you later conflate with moral evil). It seems like you are under the notion that evil is solely a byproduct of human agency. In addition to that, you have overlooked other philosophical and theological aspects. For instance, some doctrines present arguments for a compatibilist view of free will, where free will can coexist with a certain degree of divine or natural determinism.

Lastly, much like societies establish laws to limit harmful actions while preserving individual freedoms, it is thus conceivable that a world could theoretically exist where beings are free to make choices within a framework that limits the capacity for causing harm. The question then becomes why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would not create a world that maximizes love and minimizes suffering more effectively.

Now, I look forward to your response. Hopefully, you can address the challenges put forward here this time without resorting to definitional fallacies, false dilemmas, begging the question, arguments from ignorance, or straw men.

@just_sayin

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The title claim in this thread is that "God if far more evil than the devil". What I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, is irrelevant. The claim is that if god exists and is what the Bible claims it is, then it is a strongly evil creature, and so far every argument in opposition to this claim has seemed to only further support this claim. "No, god is not evil, he just wants you to kiss his feet, otherwise suffer for eternity" - that does little to defend god from criticism, but does a lot to show what kind of people defend said god.

And the only reason why the Devil is evil is because God deems him so and Gods reasons are simply because he opposes God and tried to warn people of God lol. What's more is that God would have created the Devil knowing that he would rebel, in fact actually creating him to directly rebel him lol. 

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me?  

Because it prevents freewill. Biblically anyways, it's not anything proven to be real so... I don't want its judgment. 

In your book in isaia 1:18 it says...Come now, and let us reason together... 

It goes on to say our sin is like scarlet and he'll make it like wool. Well I like red better than white. It's not reasonable to submit to a creature that doesn't care about murder and rape, (beyond nominally  mentioning them to put unbelievers with). You don't have to confess nothing you've done, except unbelief. The ten commandments, the first four are how our wills must comply to his. Then it will discuss actions and deeds. Theoretically, it's unwise to trust the judgment of a thing which has its priorities as thus: worship and obey or else, anything and everything is fine by me, but do not die distrusting me, or else.  Wreaks of the lunacy that guides putin on the world stage. If your god truly wanted you to have freewill, you could walk away knowing he won't take vengeances. Ah but that's the problem, huh? You believe it will take vengeance, you believe it is vengeful, you believe the word when it says 'I am a vengeful god...'. Once again your faith guides you, not intellect. 

ZeusAres42

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

ZeusAres42 said:

Well, tbh I was responding on the fly as of little time. I am usually a bit more patient. Nonetheless, later I will detail more the examination of why the argument regarding free will being a justification for evil in the sense of the aforementioned argument/s does not hold up under closer scrutiny. 

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ;     Righteousness exists; Evil exists; free will exists. If evil does not exist as a default to righteousness there is no free will because only righteousness exists but we see evil existing all around us; therefore, the one who engages in evil has made an affirmative choice to reject righteousness, yes? 

Righteousness and Evil, one's participation in same, is regulated by the human conscience as the free will choice of choosing what is good is regulated by the conscience while the free will choice to reject what is good is regulated by the conscience and humanity, a free moral agent, is free to choose good, evil; in some scenarios, neutrality and neutrality can be defined as good or evil contingent upon context, yes?

When one rejects what is good and good is defined by the conscience, that rejection of what is good can default to neutrality as the individual makes the free will choice to remain neutral on a particular subject by not engaging in the behavior...a free will choice of neutrality has manifest - or - if a free will choice is made to reject what is good and they make the free will choice to not remain neutral (or neutrality is not an option) their free will choice to reject what is good defaults to engaging in what is evil; hence, a free will choice to engage in evil called mens rea (the guilty mind). 

Mens Rea is often times an element of criminal law that must be proved by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt; that is, the prosecution is tasked with proving that the defendant knowingly and willingly engaged in a particular conduct; this, by free will...not coercion, not by accident, but with intent; otherwise, if intent cannot be established; that is, the defendant did not engage in the conduct via a free will "choice," there are lesser degrees of culpability that must be entertained by the Charging Instrument.  

Your reasoning falls apart because first you assert a god exist, then claim it to be good, then claim that's where good comes from and resistance to this good defaults to evil. Well none of that has been proven.

Then you use the legal system as an analogy for your argument. But the proof the prosecution has to satisfy is under the written established rule of law, not any criteria for freewill; or notions of inherent righteousness determining good and evil by its mere presence. Furthermore your analogy if anything points to freewill being suppressed, that conduct not allowed. Don't do it or else. Your god says believe or else. Neither one suggest freewill. And it's not even concerned about bad deeds, you profess on your death bed and you're in. All that matters is believe or else. No freewill involved.

Nah, this guy's reasoning falls apart as soon as he starts thinking. 

@Factfinder

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

LOL Dam that was good!

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Ah but god is the author of evil. https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/173567/#Comment_173567

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; No, God does not "author" evil...the god you serve is the author of evil from the beginning. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

MayCaesar said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The title claim in this thread is that "God if far more evil than the devil". What I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, is irrelevant. The claim is that if god exists and is what the Bible claims it is, then it is a strongly evil creature, and so far every argument in opposition to this claim has seemed to only further support this claim. "No, god is not evil, he just wants you to kiss his feet, otherwise suffer for eternity" - that does little to defend god from criticism, but does a lot to show what kind of people defend said god.

And the only reason why the Devil is evil is because God deems him so and Gods reasons are simply because he opposes God and tried to warn people of God lol. What's more is that God would have created the Devil knowing that he would rebel, in fact actually creating him to directly rebel him lol. 

@ZeusAres42 ;  Elohim did not will the Devil evil but created him in absolute perfection; the Devil via free will chose to covet Elohim's sovereignty and entered into rebellion to Elohim's authority; hence, the creation narrative as a repository apart from the Kingdom as Elohim deals with this rebellious cherub.

Elohim said, through the prophet Ezekiel, concerning Lucifer...the Devil, Satan, Allah....

 “You were the signet of perfection,[a]
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[b] emerald, and carbuncle;
    and crafted in gold were your settings
    and your engravings.[c]
On the day that you were created
    they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
    I placed you;[d] you were on the holy mountain of God;
    in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created,
    till unrighteousness was found in you.  Ezekiel 28 (ESV)

Jesus watched as Satan was extricated from the Kingdom...

18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18 (ESV)

______________________________

Elohim created YOU knowing that you would choose servitude to the Devil as opposed to the love and compassion Elohim expressed in Jesus our Messiah...here you are...Elohim has allowed you to choose whom you will serve...He is not a respecter of persons...you will receive exactly what you have chosen.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; No, God does not "author" evil...the god you serve is the author of evil from the beginning. 

And god created it. Biblically.