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You keep referring to the results, but it appears you don't know the experiment very well.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Lol.
Observation refutes your theory.
You make up a nonsensical and unsupported explanation, that is not backed up by any evidence, to explain why the earth looks like it’s a sphere, when it’s actually flat.
You demand everyone else to prove you wrong.
Thats call pseudoscience.
What part of the scientific method means that you need to provide evidence for your claim?
The “scientific method part.”
The scientific method is about coming up with testable explanations that can either be confirmed or falsified by experiment.
The whole purpose of this method, is that you can’t just make up some random sh*t; like say, “observations of the sun don’t agree with my position because of random refraction effects I won’t explain and can’t describe”, without having to justify them.
Thats hilarious though: that’s going to go in the back - asking me which part of the scientific method requires you to back up your unsubstantiated claims with evidence. Lol.
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"Lol.
Observation refutes your theory."
Of course you are just going to leave that like it is.
What observation? What does this observation refute exactly? I think maybe you just like asserting that you are right without actually doing anything but rhetoric.
"You make up a nonsensical and unsupported explanation, that is not backed up by any evidence, to explain why the earth looks like it’s a sphere, when it’s actually flat."
Actually, the observation was not of the earth.
It was of the sun, and the claim is supported by undisputable science. Light bends. There's no reason to take an observation and assume something irrelevant about the shape of the earth.
"You demand everyone else to prove you wrong."
No. I made a persuade me debate, and am so far unconvinced.
"Thats call pseudoscience."
No, claiming unverifiable imagery is scientific evidence is pseudoscience.
"What part of the scientific method means that you need to provide evidence for your claim?
The “scientific method part.”
The scientific method is about coming up with testable explanations that can either be confirmed or falsified by experiment."
Agreed. Please tell me what experiment includes looking at unverifiable imagery.
"The whole purpose of this method, is that you can’t just make up some random sh*t; like say, “observations of the sun don’t agree with my position because of random refraction effects I won’t explain and can’t describe”, without having to justify them."
I've explained them perfectly well enough for even a juvenile to understand. The opponent seems to understand my logic.
"Thats hilarious though: that’s going to go in the back - asking me which part of the scientific method requires you to back up your unsubstantiated claims with evidence. Lol."
I have offered more empirical data than either of you for my claims.
Where them pictures?
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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You guys were all passing each other trophies around to your ignorance.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Sunset refutes the flat earth. Because - you know, how can the earth be flat if the sun is above for some and below for others at the same time. Duh.
So the earth isn’t flat.
Because you cannot accept that - you have to invent a solution. Hence refraction.
You have no evidence to support it, its pretty much unfalsifiable, you have no ability to prove it, and you can’t justify any of it:
Hence it’s pseudoscience. But props for trying to argue you don’t have to prove your nonsensical assertion!
Now, as well as being unable to provide any justification for your refraction nonsense; if you recall, I also pointed out that you have absolutely no understanding or evidence relating to faked videos - as I pointed out, you don’t appear to have any understanding of video fakery, how they can be faked or how to tell:
So, no matter what I link - you have demonstrated you have no knowledge and no information that would allow you to determine whether they were real or fake.
This is what you do. We have video evidence the earth is not flat. You need to stay up till sunset to observe the earth cannot be flat.
You have no evidence, justification methodology, science, observation or testable hypothesis that prove those two simple observations wrong.
Instead, you invent two ridiculous explanations that you then demand we
disprove.
That, my friend, is pseudoscientific burden shifting.
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Sunset refutes the flat earth. Because - you know, how can the earth be flat if the sun is above for some and below for others at the same time. Duh.
So the earth isn’t flat.
Because you cannot accept that - you have to invent a solution. Hence refraction.
You have no evidence to support it, its pretty much unfalsifiable, you have no ability to prove it, and you can’t justify any of it:
Hence it’s pseudoscience. But props for trying to argue you don’t have to prove your nonsensical assertion!
Now, as well as being unable to provide any justification for your refraction nonsense; if you recall, I also pointed out that you have absolutely no understanding or evidence relating to faked videos - as I pointed out, you don’t appear to have any understanding of video fakery, how they can be faked or how to tell:
So, no matter what I link - you have demonstrated you have no knowledge and no information that would allow you to determine whether they were real or fake.
This is what you do. We have video evidence the earth is not flat. You need to stay up till sunset to observe the earth cannot be flat.
You have no evidence, justification methodology, science, observation or testable hypothesis that prove those two simple observations wrong.
Instead, you invent two ridiculous explanations that you then demand we
disprove.
That, my friend, is pseudoscientific burden shifting.
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https://twitter.com/Zombieguy19871
Taxation is always theft
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
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So the earth isn’t flat."
Your argument is this:
If the earth is a ball, the sun would set.
The sun sets, so the earth is a ball.
Yet another affirming the consequent. The same observation can be reproduced by bending the light up over the eye. This is why you raise altitude and experience sunset again.
The object appears lower.
"Because you cannot accept that - you have to invent a solution. Hence refraction."
Now I've "invented" refraction?
I think maybe is just an appeal to ignorance.
"You have no evidence to support it, its pretty much unfalsifiable, you have no ability to prove it, and you can’t justify any of it:"
That refraction exists?
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Do you want to join in that circle jerk and get a few trophies?
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Further, even if that was not the case, you would still always see the Sun in your model. Refraction cannot hide an object from view, it can merely misplace its image. As long as the Sun shines light in all directions, no matter what bizarre air models you come up with, you will always see it, 24 hours a day.
Your model flies out the window at the tiniest scrutiny. Tends to happen, when you try to counter 2,500 years of rigorous science with arguments you came up with during one of your pub visits.
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So your claim is that atmospheric refraction does not exist? Maybe you are ignorant about gradient refraction. This occurs when the density of a medium changes. The light is bent toward the denser medium. This is all well known and established.
This guy explains it pretty well, except that mirages are a break in the gradient, where the temperature is relatively lower or higher, where those light waves bounce off of the less dense layer. A process called total internal reflection.
If the temperature more gradually changes with altitude, this produces a gradient, where the light is just bent instead of reflected, causing the object to appear in a different spot, instead of appearing upside down.
"Further, even if that was not the case, you would still always see the Sun in your model. Refraction cannot hide an object from view, it can merely misplace its image. As long as the Sun shines light in all directions, no matter what bizarre air models you come up with, you will always see it, 24 hours a day."
Refraction can and has caused the light to disappear over a flat surface. This is demonstrable science. If you displace the apparent position of an object downward, the light is reflected off of the flat Earth and never meets the observer.
"Your model flies out the window at the tiniest scrutiny. Tends to happen, when you try to counter 2,500 years of rigorous science with arguments you came up with during one of your pub visits."
Those were some dumbass claims man
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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So tell me do you still believe the earth is covered by a dome? Do you still believe the Moon landings were faked?
You're possibly to embarrassed to admit this was your position in previous encounters I understand if you now wish to distance yourself from these hilarious claims
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Further, this effect allows you to see the oasis which you cannot see directly as a reflection. It does not hide an oasis which you can see directly from you. There is no mechanism to hide such an oasis mathematically. Nor there is to hide your sun from direct view.
You throw a lot of buzzwords in, but we both understand that you do not have a clue about how any of this actually works.
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1- The sun has to be couple thousand miles away on a flat earth. I have already proved this and you did not object to this part at the start of our conversation.
2- If the sun was that high, it would change size as the day progresses. This is a fact unless you want to reinvent perspective.
3- Therefore there needs to be a dome that refracts the light to make the sun stay the same size throughout the day. The dome is not actually necesarry, there just needs to be some part of the sky higher than our planes go that refract the light in a certain manner.
4- But if the light is refracted to make the sun look like it does not change size, the shadow experiment will give different results. Based on the fact that the light will come with a different angle. You cannot object to this part as it is common sense that if you refract light, the light will move in a different direction.
Where is the problem?
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@Erfisflat you have literally just said that "Oh you do not understand the experiment.". How is that answering the question? Explain how a sun couple miles ahead could always look the same size and still produce the same results with that shadow experiment.
With my amazing art skills, I have illustrated the problem. The yellow ball is the sun, the yellow lines are the rays, those black things sticking out are the sticks, the black line on the ground is the flat earth. And that blue part is the supposed dome. Now, show me, how the light could be refracted in such a way that it does not affect the experiment but somehow makes the sun look always the same size when it moves. Do not forget that you also have to take into account the fact that the sun is moving.
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SKEPTIC INVESTIGATES
Is the Earth Flat?
Recent news stories,1 celebrity endorsements, and Google search trends2 have highlighted an apparently growing conspiracy theory belief that the Earth is not a globe, but instead a flat disc. According to believers, government forces promote a completely fictitious model of the cosmos in order to conceal the true nature of the Earth. Are these claims true?
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No. The Earth is Round
The evidence for a spherical Earth is overwhelming.3 Most obviously, there are many thousands of images and videos of the Earth from space, including a continually changing live stream view of the globe from the International Space Station—not to mention all the astronauts who have personally seen the Earth from orbit. Flat Earthers claim that all images of the globe are fraudulent inventions, and all testimony from astronauts is false. It is unreasonable to dismiss all of the evidence from the entire history of space exploration, especially when there is zero evidence for a decades-long “globularist” conspiracy. However, we do not need to rely on evidence from modern space agencies to confirm the roundness of the Earth for ourselves.
Portions of this article appeared previously in Daniel Loxton’s detailed history of the Flat Earth movement in Junior Skeptic #53, bound within Skeptic magazine 19.4 (2014).
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The globe has been clearly understood for thousands of years. Indeed, this was one of the first cosmic facts to be worked out correctly by ancient people because evidence of a spherical Earth is visible to the naked eye.
By the time of the philosopher Socrates and his student Plato, many Greeks understood that the Earth could only be a sphere. Sailors would have noticed that the sails of approaching ships appeared before the hulls of the ships became visible because the surface of the sea is slightly curved, like the surface of an enormous ball.4 When you sail toward a ship, island, or lighthouse, their tallest points are the first thing to peek up over the curve of the horizon.
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The debate about the shape of the Earth has been settled for over two thousand years. An ancient scholar named Eratosthenes—the head of the famous library of Alexandria in Egypt—even correctly approximated the circumference of the Earth using experimental measurements of shadows in two cities and some geometry.6
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The debate about the shape of the Earth has been settled for over two thousand years. An ancient scholar named Eratosthenes—the head of the famous library of Alexandria in Egypt—even correctly approximated the circumference of the Earth using experimental measurements of shadows in two cities and some geometry.6
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Despite modern legends about Medieval backwardness, there never was a time when educated people went back to thinking the Earth was flat. Once discovered, the true shape of the globe was too simple and useful a fact to be forgotten. Sailors were reminded of the planet’s roundness every time they climbed a mast to see further over the horizon or looked to the stars to determine their position. By the time of Columbus, his crew and even his critics understood that our world is a globe.7 It had been an established fact for centuries. For example, here’s a passage from the popular astronomy textbook On the Sphere of the World, published over 250 years before Columbus sailed:
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The Nature of Flat Earth Beliefs
Flat Earth beliefs vary, but usually involve a large disc-shaped world with a relatively tiny Sun and Moon circling above it like lamps above a table. Flat Earth maps rearrange the continents and seas to radiate outward from the North Pole, which is imagined to be at the center of the disc. Everything we think of as the Southern Hemisphere is spread out around the outer circumference. It is usually claimed that Antarctica does not exist at all. Instead, the entire disc is encircled by a vast wall of ice that we mistake for a frozen southern continent.9
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Flat Earth beliefs almost require creationist faith because the Flat Earth could not be a natural object. If such a world existed, it could only be an artificial environment constructed on purpose and maintained by forces we do not understand. Left to itself, a disc-world would collapse under its own gravity, forming a sphere like other planets, large moons, and stars.
Since the dawn of the Space Age, Flat Earth beliefs have necessarily also entailed believing that a vast conspiracy deceives us about the nature of the world.17 “The space program is a scientific plot to hoodwink the public,” claimed Charles and Marjory Johnson,18 the most prominent Flat Earth advocates during the 1970s, 80s, and 90s.19 If they were correct about the shape of the Earth, it would follow that a conspiracy must exist to falsify evidence of Moon landings and images of the Earth from space.
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Flat Earth Ideas Make No Sense and Explain Nothing
Like other creationists, Flat Earthers base their arguments on perceived flaws in mainstream science while ignoring major problems with their own claims. They do not provide scientific evidence for their radical alternative model. Nor do Flat Earth models explain the broad range of natural phenomena that are well-explained by the modern scientific understanding of the globe and its place in our solar system: planetary formation, volcanoes, tides, seasonal changes, the phases of the Moon, plate tectonics, earthquakes, the coldness of the poles, the magnetic field that compasses rely upon, auroras, and so on.
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Flat Earth Ideas Make No Sense and Explain Nothing
Like other creationists, Flat Earthers base their arguments on perceived flaws in mainstream science while ignoring major problems with their own claims. They do not provide scientific evidence for their radical alternative model. Nor do Flat Earth models explain the broad range of natural phenomena that are well-explained by the modern scientific understanding of the globe and its place in our solar system: planetary formation, volcanoes, tides, seasonal changes, the phases of the Moon, plate tectonics, earthquakes, the coldness of the poles, the magnetic field that compasses rely upon, auroras, and so on.
  Considerate: 88%  
  Substantial: 96%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 13.4  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
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The Flat Earth model fundamentally conflicts with the things we see in nature. For example, why would the southern hemisphere’s stars be visible from the opposite edges of a Flat Earth, while people in the central region of the disc instead see the constellations of the northern hemisphere? Shouldn’t the same stars hang over everyone on a Flat Earth like a ceiling hangs over a kitchen table?
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  Substantial: 92%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.84  
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The Flat Earth model fundamentally conflicts with the things we see in nature. For example, why would the southern hemisphere’s stars be visible from the opposite edges of a Flat Earth, while people in the central region of the disc instead see the constellations of the northern hemisphere? Shouldn’t the same stars hang over everyone on a Flat Earth like a ceiling hangs over a kitchen table?
  Considerate: 85%  
  Substantial: 92%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.84  
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  Considerate: 89%  
  Substantial: 97%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 99%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.84  
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Flattening the globe also would severely distort the shapes of oceans and continents and the distances between them. Most notably, all proposed Flat Earth maps greatly expand the distances between southern landmasses. Countries that are relatively close together on a globe would be repositioned many times further away on opposite sides of a flat disc-world. In reality, for example, the distance between the northern countries of China and the USA is similar to the distance between the southern countries of Australia and South Africa—and so are the flight times to travel between them. That would not be true if Flat Earth maps were accurate.
  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 73%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.5  
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Flat Earth map from Samuel Birley Rowbotham’s book Zetetic Astronomy(1865).
All routes for planes and ships would be different on a Flat Earth, especially in the Southern Hemisphere. According to many Flat Earth maps, the shortest flight route between South America and Australia would cross over the North Pole!21 A conspiracy to conceal the flatness of the Earth would therefore have to include hundreds of thousands of airline pilots and ship captains as well as governments, space agencies, mapmakers, and Antarctic explorers.
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Gravity, Handwaving, and the Supernatural
Flat Earth advocates rely upon made up excuses and invented forces to explain away the problems of their model. They claim that light, perspective, and gravity work differently than we understand from the evidence of science and our senses. Many claim that gravity does not exist at all. This claim is necessary because everyone on every part of the Earth’s surface feels a roughly equal gravitational pull straight down toward their feet, which only makes sense on a globe: gravity pulls everyone down toward the planet’s center of mass. Gravity would feel very different on a Flat Earth. A disc-world’s center of mass would not be located straight down from most parts of the surface. People standing at the central North Pole would feel a vertical downward pull, but everyone further from the center of the disc would feel gravity pull at an angle. At the edges of the disc, the pull of gravity would be almost horizontal. This would pull the oceans and atmosphere inward toward the center of the disc, drowning the center and leaving the outer edges airless and uninhabitable. Standard gravity would also pull down the Flat Earth model’s tiny nearby Sun and Moon to crash into the North Pole. Since none of these things happen, we know the world is not flat.
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  Substantial: 97%  
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Rather than confront the problem of gravity, Flat Earthers respond by dismissing gravity altogether. If the “traditional theory of gravitation” is “incompatible with the Flat Earth Model,” then gravity must be weak or nonexistent.22 But if that were the case, wouldn’t you be floating out of your chair right now? Why would objects fall when you drop them? According to one common Flat Earth claim, objects fall because the Earth “is constantly accelerating up at a rate of 32 feet per second squared (or 9.8 meters per second squared). This constant acceleration causes what you think of as gravity.”23 This handwaving explanation doesn’t work. If our world is accelerating upward, why doesn’t the Flat Earth crash into the tiny Sun and Moon above us? What force could cause the Flat Earth—an entire world—to constantly accelerate at a perfectly even rate? How would the flat surface remain perfectly oriented with the direction of acceleration without ever tumbling (or even slightly wobbling)?
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Flat Earth illustration by Daniel Loxton. Sun and Moon shown larger than imagined by Flat Earthers.
There are no coherent natural explanations for anything in the Flat Earth model. Even when presented in secular language, Flat Earth claims describe an impossible and necessarily artificial world created and maintained through unexplainable miracles. A Flat Earth could only exist through supernatural or technological forces beyond our comprehension.
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