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Let's try a real world example.
Take a small flashlight, and make a shadow from it, with a stick.
Now, take a slightly larger flashlight and put it in the same place, pointed in the same direction.
The shadow will not change.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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That flashlight example is not clear. If you make the lightbulb bigger, the results WILL change. But if you just make the flashlight itself bigger, not changing the lightbulb, the flashlight will just illumunate more area.
Now, our problem is similar to making the lightbulb bigger, if you really want to use an example.
As you can see, a larger flashlight DOES change the way that the shadow is formed. (Those balls are lightbulbs and that opening is where the light comes out in a flashlight. Oh, and that brown box is just an object)
But, we do not have to use an example to understand this idea. It is actually pretty simple:
Now, I think the image is pretty understandable but if you have any questions about it, you can ask!
As you can see, the 3 observers are seeing the sun in 3 different sizes. Meaning the dome has to refract the light to make it seem like the sun does not change size. But if this refraction happens, the shadows will be different as the dome has to magnify the sun more as the lenght between the dome and the sun increases. ( Do not misunderstand that plane, I am not trying to say that the sun would appear to grow a little as we go up in the sky. That would be hard to measure. I just put a "plane" there because I thought it was funny. Just treat it like the two other observers.)
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The experiment made the assumption that the sun is far away, and it's rays would all be parallel.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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"The experiment made the assumption that the sun is far away, and it's rays would all be parallel."
You are confusing what side you are on.
You are claiming that the earth is flat. The rays not being parallel is the only way the same effect can be achieved on the left model.
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The Sun has approximately the 0.5 degree angular diameter on the sky. You cannot just say, "the rays are parallel", and neglect this diameter, when this diameter is what the conclusion of the argument depends on.
Your entire argument is based on neglecting the effects that prove you wrong, and holding on to those few effects that do not directly contradict your model. This is not science, this is religion.
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The experiment with sticks has different potential outcomes depending on the shape of the earth.
If the earth is flat, the length of observed shadows would be different than if the earth was a sphere.
In general, that the sun is far away, and the rays are parallel incident on a spherical earth is a conclusion from, not the assumption of the experiment.
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This is what I am trying to understand, the basis behind "every little change produces a different result"
The experiment is basically similar to triangulation. In triangulation, does the size of what you are trying to determine changing change the result? No.
Since the sun's light goes through the atmosphere, the light is bent. This means that the sun is not always where it appears.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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The sun's apparent position, the angle of the rays are all dependents in the experiment.
Size is not
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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"The sun's apparent position, the angle of the rays are all dependents in the experiment.
Size is not"
So you are claiming that if the sun changed size, the shadows of objects would not change? Then let me prove you wrong by the power of simple geometry. Just hold on.
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"With this information he measured the circumference of the Earth without leaving Egypt by assuming that Earth was a sphere and that the Sun rays are parallel when they arrive to Earth."
You'll note that angular size is not a factor, at all.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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1. That the sun was very far away, making the rays parallel.
2. Earth is a ball.
3. Light travels in straight lines forever.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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There have been a few dozen arguments in this very thread that obliterated your claims. You labeled many of them as "Funny", because that is all you have to say in response.
You can easily test your own claims about shadows by taking two table lamps and playing with them in your room. Too bad you are not interested in it, because the moment you do it is the moment your sand castle crumbles.
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.
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Here. Proof that the size of the sun would indeed affect shadows.
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https://twitter.com/Zombieguy19871
Taxation is always theft
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
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Yeah, no that’s completely arse about face lol.
The angle of the rays, the suns apparent position and relative differences in angles are literally what the experiment is measuring. The clue is that the experiment is measuring the length of shadows and the differences in length of shadows between observers. The sun isn’t a different sun for each observer - so you’re literally measuring the difference in observafion angle for each observer: is their orientation with respect to each other: ie - the shape of the earth.
Its a 5th grade geometry problem. You’ve even helpfully drawn the diagram.
If the change in angle of the shadow is linearly proportional to the distance between the observers - regardless of where they are, the observation is like diagram.
if the change in angle of the shadow is proportional to the inverse tangent to some location directly underneath the sun, the observation looks like diagram 1.
This is trivial mathematics, and a basic experiment that proves the earth is a sphere.
Obviously, you don’t like that as it proves you wrong: so you’re doing this ridiculous denial of basic geometry - but this disproves flat earth - and is the evidence of a spherical earth you’ve been demanding.
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Now, I can show the math behind this but I do not think you will object to any of it.
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Yeah, yeah, well see...
"The angle of the rays, the suns apparent position and relative differences in angles are literally what the experiment is measuring."
That is exactly what i said. Angular size is not a factor. No credible source agrees with it, and we're only to go on the baseless assertions put forth by globalites here, as well as out of scale diagrams.
"The clue is that the experiment is measuring the length of shadows and the differences in length of shadows between observers. The sun isn’t a different sun for each observer"
Ah, there the disagreement. Even in your model, refraction affects the position of the sun relative to the position of the observer on the earth. It is claimed that for an observer watching the sunset, the sun will be much higher. The observer who see the sun as his zenith will not have much refraction, as he is looking through less atmosphere, so, in this respect, the sun cannot be accurately triangulated, due to refraction, as I stated in the first place.
It looks like the rest of your post rests on that being a fact, so I'll let you try again.
- so you’re literally measuring the difference in observafion angle for each observer: is their orientation with respect to each other: ie - the shape of the earth.
Its a 5th grade geometry problem. You’ve even helpfully drawn the diagram.
If the change in angle of the shadow is linearly proportional to the distance between the observers - regardless of where they are, the observation is like diagram.
if the change in angle of the shadow is proportional to the inverse tangent to some location directly underneath the sun, the observation looks like diagram 1.
This is trivial mathematics, and a basic experiment that proves the earth is a sphere.
Obviously, you don’t like that as it proves you wrong: so you’re doing this ridiculous denial of basic geometry - but this disproves flat earth - and is the evidence of a spherical earth you’ve been demanding.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Yeah. This is what I’ve been saying.
The observational evidence PROVE earth is a sphere.
Atmospheric refraction has almost no impact on the measurement unless the sun is very low in the sky.
Your position has been refuted.
What you’re now doing, is making pseudoscientific assertions.
Your claiming - without any observational evidence, experiment, without any calculations, or demonstration of how possible it is, without any backing for your claim whatsoever, that refraction magically makes the flat earth look spherical.
Worse, the sun travels at a constant angular speed) can’t happen on a flat earth, and doesn’t change size (can’t happen on a flat earth).
So you have three major observations that are definitively consistent with the expected results of observations on a spherical earth.
And you have dismissed them all using a process that you cannot show is even happening.
When you have to claim that random effects all conspire in just the right ways to make a flat earth look spherical - with proof, it’s time to wake up and smell the horseshit.
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Assume that x,y,z,w,r are positive numbers.
Assume that we have a coordinate system and every object in our coordinate system is in the first region. Now, assume that the highest point of the sun has the coordinates (x,y). And the highest point of a bigger sun at the same time of the day would be this: (x,y+r). Now let's take an object to the right of our suns, the highest point of that object would be this: (x+z,y-w). Now let's connect the suns with our object with 2 lines and calculate the slopes of those lines:
Smaller sun's line: y-(y-w) / x-(x+z) = w/z
Bigger sun's line: y+r-(y-w) / x-(x+z) = w+r / z
As you can see, the line connecting the bigger sun and the object would have a bigger slope. Meaning, the shadow created by the bigger sun would be smaller.
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None of you have, nor will you ever.
Keep on piling assumption on top of assumption
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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"The Sun is close" is what you are claiming. We are not claiming anything like that. We are simply pointing out the geometrical fact that, for any object with non-negligible angular size, there will be effects on the shadows cast from the light coming from that object.
At this point, is seems, you yourself no longer understand what it is you are claiming. Unfortunately for you, basic geometry is far beyond your intellectual ability, so you do not even understand how little sense what you are saying makes.
I am still not sure if you are serious about your claims. Even if you were, I would think you would come up with better lines of defense. What you are using right now looks very much like a satire, rather than an argument a person legitimately believes in. If you are trying to make flat earthers look line loons, then you should not bother, since you are not trying to demonstrate anything we do not already know.
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The sun is always overhead for someone at some point in time: if the sun wasn’t super, super close - the sun would be prohibitively high in the sky for someone the other side of the planet.
Lol, I mean, there are a thousand individual problems with your asserted claim, that renders it incapable of explaining the evidence: but if the sun is at 14 degrees above horizontal (3000 miles high), or 26 degrees above horizontal (6000), or 45 degrees (12000), you could look through a wall of water and it’s not going to move the sun more than a few degrees.
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The sun is always overhead for someone at some point in time: if the sun wasn’t super, super close - the sun would be prohibitively high in the sky for someone the other side of the planet.
Lol, I mean, there are a thousand individual problems with your asserted claim, that renders it incapable of explaining the evidence: but if the sun is at 14 degrees above horizontal (3000 miles high), or 26 degrees above horizontal (6000), or 45 degrees (12000), you could look through a wall of water and it’s not going to move the sun more than a few degrees.
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We're showing you experiments that prove that the earth is sphere - and you’re basically responding that the spherical observations are actually because the earth is flat and some process that you can’t explain, can’t show is happening, can’t show produces the observation, won’t elaborate on, and demand we accept.
Methinks you’re projecting.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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It's amazing how even facing empirical measurements, you will still dogmatically cling to this inconclusive evidence, and claim you live on spinny balls.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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No it isn’t assuming “refraction isn’t a thing”, it’s assuming that refraction works the way we understand refraction actually works.
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How about you demonstrate that refraction can make the sun set, let’s start simple:
How many degrees does light from the sun have to bend?
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It is you who comes up with countless esoteric concepts, such as the Sun being hidden due to refraction, in order to explain all the 23647328764782364823243 facts that contradict your lazy model.
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