Is Jesus the only Way to be saved?

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

So many words... But it all comes down to the fact that, according to you, even if I commit millions sins every day my entire life and then at the last moment before my death repent and accept Jesus as my lord and holy blablabla, then everything I did will be forgiven and I will end up in heaven. Interesting how god's justice works, is it not?

Of course, in reality there is no god and no hell/heaven; it is all made up by charlatans to trick people like you into transferring your money to their bank accounts. But charlatans usually, at least, try to make a consistent argument, so their plot is not so easy to discover. The charlatans you are following cannot even get the basics right.

What is wrong with sinning, if you can just repent one day and be forgiven? Never thought about it, did you?

GnosticChristian

@MayCaesar ;

Our friend forgets that Jesus was Jew and that the Jewish tradition on forgiveness called for the sinner to seek forgiveness from the only one who could give it. The victim.

He also ignores what Jesus taught.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards

DL

RickeyD

@GnosticChristian

1) There is forgiveness of sin and salvation in no one but Jesus Christ-Yeshua, a Jew from the Tribe of Judah as prophesied.

He is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” 13When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they marveled and took note that these men had been with Jesus.…   Acts 4:11-13

6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."  John 14:6 (NASB)

2) Everyone that sins dies in the body but NOT in the spirit. You cite the Covenant of Law and we're not under the Covenant of Law lest you are practicing Judaism and if you are, you cannot be saved from death in Hell by The Law.

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."  Galatians 2:16 (NASB)

I have the words to life, the words that will rescue you from certain death and destruction in Hell, but you must be willing to listen.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; God knows your heart and the validity of a death-bed confession which are extremely rare. You do not know the day, the hour, the minute, the second, that you will breath your last. God is not mocked and knows your every thought. You will not deceive God and worm your way into forgiveness and redemption. You would be wise to humble yourself NOW and perform an exegesis of the "Gospel of John" and pursue Jesus with all your heart...if you will, He will be found by you and you find a new life of meaning, peace, joy, purpose, assurance. Faith in Jesus as Lord for the mediation of your sin is your only Hope for life.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

If god already knows everything there is to know about me, my heart, my future, etc., then he has already decided whether I will be sent to hell or heaven. And if that is so, then it does not matter what I do: the outcome will be the same. Another consequence of your mythology you have never really thought about.

Your heaven seems to be the most boring place in the Universe anyway. Imagine a bunch of folks preaching the same few lines you are preaching... I want to be where the party is!

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; Not true. God allows you free will to choose your destiny and God desires that all men and women be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. God does not predestine you to Hell, you have the free will to choose life or death. God has placed me here to tell you that truth and ask you to turn away from the deception of atheism and repent of sin and trust in Jesus as your Lord and receive the Holy Spirit as your Wisdom, Truth, Guide, Counselor.

I have written on God's Omniscience v. Man's Free Will if you're interested, see my article: https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2019/08/29/gods-omniscience-v-mans-free-will/

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Omniscience is incompatible with unpredictability, as omniscience includes knowledge of the future. This means that, regardless of any free will, the god already knows what choices I will make at every point in the future, hence has already decided where I will go after death. Unless you want to question your god's wisdom by claiming that he knows less about the future than, say, I do? I already know well that I will never "repent" or do any other shamanic ritual you folks believe in, so if god does not know it yet, then I know more than the god does... Peculiar, is it not?

Your religion is full of contradictions, but, I think, the biggest contradiction is the claim that god allegedly is so smart and righteous, yet all the preachers, who are mere humans, think themselves qualified to speak for the god. I guess it means that the god is less intelligent than the average Christian, which makes one wonder why you take that creature so seriously in the first place.

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD ;

On Jesus dying for you. Can y6ou even say the word --- moral?

It takes quite an ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

 You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

 You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

 Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 Psa 49;7  None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

 There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

 Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Regards

DL

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD ;

" God allows you free will to choose your destiny"

Your bible disagrees with you. You might try reading it. Here. This ols O.P. will help you think, if that is still possible for you.

========

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

 Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

 The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

 If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

 Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

 Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

 I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

 Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

 What is your choice of those two options?

 Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

 I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

 What do you think is the truth?

 Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

 Regards

DL

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD ;

RickeyD said:

@MayCaesar   

If your savior is god, then he will have his desire fulfilled. Right?

Why then would he need a hell if he satisfies his desire, as he cannot help but do, being al powerful and all. Right?

Regards
DL

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

1) God does NOT predestine you to Hell or Heaven...you are given free will to choose. God sets aside His omniscience concerning our choices and permits us free will to love Him or reject Him.  God ordained a specific path for you in servitude to Him but you have rejected Him; therefore, someone else, one who is faithful, was chosen to carry your responsibilities in Time. God is faithful and is waiting for you to come to Him in humbleness and obedience by grace through faith in Jesus as Lord.  It's not too late!

Free will/volition is essential for relationship/love to manifest in purity and authenticity. God fervently desires relationship with His created beings, both angelic and human; therefore, God infuses each of us with free will to choose love or hate, good or evil, morality or immorality; otherwise, love and relationship cannot manifest in truth. If we were programmed to live and die in a predetermined manner, God could not enjoy fellowship with His created beings because love would be robotic and thus impotent.

2) There are ZERO-contradictions in Christianity and God has worked through His created beings from eternity past and in Time to accomplish His perfect will. God desires and searches for men and women who will be faithful to serve Him and represent Him in both Time and Eternity.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD

People still think they have free will?

Wasn't aware that was still seriously considered.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot

You should study. Here is a concise and informative explanation of God, free will, love, sin, hate, death by Ravi Zacharais: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Crx0v7nzs

Definitely worth a few minutes of your time. 

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

You think this way because you only see one move ahead and are not willing to trace the path your initial postulate leads to.

There are only two possibilities:
1) When the god created me, he did not know whether I would end up in Hell or Heaven. In this case, the god is not omniscient.
2) When the god created me, he knew where I would end up: Hell or Heaven. In this case I am correct.

Based on your claim on god's omniscience, only 2 can be true. This means that the god, when creating me, already knew where I would end up. If I am destined to end up in Heaven, then I am fine. And if I am destined to end up in Hell, then the god is quite a compassionate being...

Either way, the conclusion is the same: it does not matter what I do, and it will have no impact on my ultimate fate. It is not a very complicated logic, and the only reason you are not able to grasp it is because of all the conditioning you have gone through that has erased your propensity for critical thinking.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD

How many of your heart beats did you decide were your own?

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

1) God created you in His spiritual image and placed your name in the Book of Life fully desiring that you would come to a knowledge of the Truth and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). God chooses, by His sovereign will, to set-aside His omniscience concerning your destiny thereby permitting you to choose you own path. God does not predestine anyone to Heaven or Hell but provides them the option through the Covenant of Grace established in the blood of Jesus Christ. God has ordained that anyone who will trust in what Jesus did at the Crucifixion by dying in our place to forgive our sin...anyone who will believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord will be saved and find life in Eternity in the Kingdom of God. This is NOT a contradiction but simply God's sovereignty and will in Love.

2) Again, you are in complete control over your loyalties which are but two:

-- Repent of sin, trust in Jesus as Lord and find life by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

-- Reject Jesus as Lord and serve Satan by default and die in sin (John 8:24).

The choice is completely yours to make.  

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Only God knows.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

I do not know how I can make this any simpler... Let me just ask you a very simple question: when the god created me, did he know whether I would end up in Heaven or Hell? Yes or no.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; No...why or how? God chose not to know but to provide you every opportunity to know Him and love Him and find life in His Name. This is why your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life from Eternity. It is you that decides if your name remains or is blotted out.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Okay. So the god did not know whether I would end up in Hell or Heaven. I will repeat it: the god did not know.

Now, definition of the word "omniscience":
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/omniscience

The state of knowing everything.

What conclusion do you think follows from this?

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; Again, you're attempting to put our Omnipotent God into a box and suggest He has no sovereign will or authority. God is fully capable of "choosing" to not know our destiny but to leave that up to us to decide. This choice to set-aside His omniscience concerning our decisions in order that free will can manifest is well within God's abilities and authority. God can choose to not know in order that love and relationship can manifest with beauty and purity. If God opted to know our decisions beforehand, where would free will and love and equity and due process and justice be found in the Universe?

Even when we were destined to Hell in our sin, Jesus Christ walked to the Crucifixion and suffered and died for the unfaithful...why would He have done that if God has predestined or opted to know who would be saved and who would die in Hell? There was no need for Messiah to suffer and die if our fate in Heaven and Hell was already settled in Eternity.

 

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD

RickeyD said:

@MayCaesar ; It is you that decides if your name remains or is blotted out.

Even after I gave you those direct quotes that refute you above, you just continue to lie like the usual Christians.

Talk about hypocrisy and turning away from your own bible.

Satan has you well in hand buddy, when she can make you ignore your own bible.

Regards
DL

RickeyD

@GnosticChristian ; You have refuted nothing and only cite that which has no bearing on the subject at hand because you don't know the Scripture or my Lord. You are spiritually dead, spiritually ignorant and lost in your sin. You have nothing to add because your loyalty is to Satan for he is your father.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Every time a theist get pushed into a corner the results are always satisfying to watch.

Since this is almost a daily occurrence, your value as an entertainer has skyrocketed to the point I could not create a more convincing satire of apologetic ideas taken seriously by theists.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; It is the one who has no knowledge that interrupts with obfuscation and nonsense.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD

It's like comedy gold on tap.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Hang around, even a spiritually dead atheist can learn something.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Have you ever heard of Poe's law?

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Not interested. Thank you.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD

Ok, well, I'm calling Poe's law on everything you have ever said.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poe%27s%20Law

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Not interested, you know nothing of what I speak...you're dead spiritually and wholly irrelevant to this conversation. You think yourself wise when you're void knowledge and living without hope.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD

But if we explore what you speak of on a meta level (talking about talking about it) would we find that it was serious, or would we find that in fact the whole thing was a deluded mess where there is no awareness of what we are discussing, or would we find sincerity?

If it is sincere, what evidence do you have to back up this claim?

Otherwise I can always point to the complete and utter absurdity that is religion, and essentially every facet of any religion. The chaotic unpredictability of these set of beliefs and tradition do not to me, seem to have any solid foundation that is predictable and can be always derived from a given set of physical principals, indicating that they are in fact, random.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

If he chose to set aside his omniscience, then he is not omniscient, contrary to what you claimed earlier. And since in your claim you referenced the Bible, it means that the Bible contains a logical error. That is pretty bad for a text that is claimed to have come directly from god, because it means that either the god is lying, or the god himself has a logical error in his thoughts, which really shakes the very foundation of the Christian world view.

This is not the only logical error there (far from it), and I can easily give you a dozen more examples off the top of my head. The whole thing is a train of absurdities and logical fallacies. But that is beside the point.

Imagine if we learn tomorrow that, say, Newtonian mechanics are wrong, and the equation F=ma actually does not hold. Well, it would be big enough news that we would pretty much have to reconsider all physics we have learned over the last three centuries. Nothing of what we have built would hold any more, and everything would need to be revised.
Yet when someone demonstrates the Bible to be wrong, Christian fundamentalists just shrug and say, "Oh, you simply need to believe the scripture and repent".

You folks have a very strange relationship with logic.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

1) Choosing to set-aside His omniscience concerning our personal decisions does not negate His ability to be omniscient concerning eschatology and Eternity no more than God becoming flesh made Jesus somehow a lesser God. Jesus opted to set-aside certain attributes to become flesh and die for the sins of mankind but this did not make Jesus any less God. Jesus is fully God and God's ability to set-aside His omniscience when desired does not negate His omniscience whenever, where ever He desires.

2) Men have dedicated their lives to proving the Scriptures errant and they have failed...you will as well.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; I muted you early on but saw some hope in some of your contributions and unmuted you...that was not wise. We're done.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Look again at the definition of the word "omniscience" I linked above. Omniscience is the state of knowing everything, it is not the ability to enter the state of knowing everything. God's alleged ability to enter the state of omniscience does not make him omniscient, just like my ability to become drunk does not make me drunk.

I just proved logically to you in a very simple way that the Bible contains an error. Men have not dedicated their lives to prove that the Bible is errant; they have dedicated their lives to fight the despotism of Christian theocracies, and they have been ultimately successful, which we should be very happy about.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar

1) Incorrect. God's authority to selectively know and not know everything is well within His ability as God...irrespective of a secular definition pertaining to God's attributes. When you suggest God has no authority to control or regulate His attributes, you show your lack of knowledge concerning our omnipotent God.

2) The Bible does NOT contain an error...the only error in this scenario is your lack of knowledge concerning our God.  Christianity is not a theocracy...men construct theocracies...not Christ. Again, you attempt to bring God down to your level when God is infinitely more wise, powerful, than you can conceive or appreciate. God will not be constrained by your secular box lacking knowledge.

3) It's also important to understand that even though God chooses to know our every decision, His knowledge does not negate our free will to choose. I know my children and wife intimately and I know what decision they will make (most of the time) in a given scenario but my knowledge does NOT negate their ability to make their own decisions.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD I don't think we ever had anything to talk about.

Anyways, I will be laughing from a distance.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Once again, omniscience is the state of knowing everything. What do you misunderstand about the word "state"? Do you know the difference between the ability to get into the drunk state, and being in the drunk state?

The only box we are constraining our discussion to is the English language. It is not my fault that you do not recognise the meaning of the words in this language. I am not a native speaker, so I would expect you to know English better than me - maybe reading the Bible regularly has a negative impact on that?

The Bible is objectively wrong. Your attempts to use the regular "Oh, but it does not really mean it directly" maneuvers are not going to work on me. I am sorry, friend, but you have encountered a mathematician on this website, and us mathematicians do not take logical juggling like this seriously.

Knowing something most of the time is not nearly the same as knowing everything, so your example regarding your children and wife is quite irrelevant here. You can argue that god is very knowledgeable (although, judging by the quality of the book he allegedly created, I doubt that is true), but not omniscient.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ;

1) Again, it is God's right and ability to choose to not know but let's agree and say that God chooses to know all things all the time and never looks away but knows the beginning from the end with absoluteness. This absolute, unyielding, omniscience, does NOT negate your free will to make choices. Even if God knew at the point of your conception that you would reject Him, this does not suggest that God created you that way but you possess the free will to reject God and choose death in Hell in servitude to Satan. Your free will does not interfere with God's omniscience and God's omniscience does NOT interfere with your free will/volition to choose your own destiny.

As I noted earlier, I know my wife of 34-yrs and my children with intimacy. I know, in most every scenario, what decision they will make but my foreknowledge via intimacy and familiarity does NOT negate or interfere with their ability to make their own decisions. 

2) The Bible is not "wrong" any sense of the word...you simply don't know the Scriptures and you don't know God. God does not predestine you to Hell...you have "chosen" to die in Hell by rejecting God and His Gift of Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of your sins. God's omniscience has absolutely NOTHING to do with your choice to die in Hell...that decision is wholly yours. You have the "choice" to serve God or serve Satan, you have chosen unwisely.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

The god is the one that created me allegedly, and if he is omniscient, then he would know before creation that I would reject him. Your argument does not make any sense. It is like saying, "I knew that creating a nuclear bomb and blowing it up above a major city downtown would kill a million people, but the bomb was free to not kill anyone, so I am not responsible for what it did".
No, when you create something with the full knowledge of what this something will do, then it is your will, not this something's will.

Did you create your wife? No. Thus this example has nothing to do with the topic.

I do not know the "scriptures", but I do know English and basic logic, and that proved to be enough to find a logical error in the Bible without even opening the book and just listening to your description of it.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ;

1) Even if God chooses to know that you would reject Him, this does not suggest He created you that way but that you have chosen to reject Him via free will. Your argument does not make any sense in that God loves His creation and died for same and created same in His own spiritual image. You're saying that this loving and caring Potter took the time and care and love to create this beautiful pottery and place same in positions of beauty and prominence then take a stick and destroy chosen vessels upon which He has lavished with His love. This is NOT the God of the Bible.

2) It is not God's will that anyone perish in sin but God created you as a free moral agent and you have opted to make choices that distanced yourself from God. God does not say that He so loved the elect but God says that He so loved the World that He gave His only Son ...that includes you and me. God did not create you to die in Hell but gave you the option...He did not program you and He did not influence you to make the decision for Hell...you did so on your own volition. God desires your love for Eternity but sadly, you have opted to reject same. You could, just as easily, turn from your sin and trust in Jesus as Lord at this very moment...

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

He created me knowing, being omniscient, every moment of my life, and every choice I would make. That is the only possibility consistent with him being omniscient, hence every choice I make has been predetermined by his design.
How do you manage to misunderstand such a simple concept?

If it is not God's will that anyone ends up in Hell, then why does he send anyone to Hell? Yet another aspect of the Bible that makes no sense. "Let me give people the ability to end up in a place where they will be eternally tortured, because I love them." Nice design indeed!
Do you, by any chance, plant mines all over your house, out of love for your wife and children, so they had the ability to step on them and blow up by choice - oh, and also hiding those mines carefully, so they could not find them by using their basic senses and had to read some book full of contradictions you wrote to even realise that they are there? Sounds like a true expression of love.

Dee

@RickeyD


***** It is not God's will that anyone perish in sin but God created you as a free moral agent and you have opted to make choices that distanced yourself from God. 

How are you created a “free moral agent “ if you cannot make your own choices regards belief in a god this is conditional free will 

***God does not say that He so loved the elect but God says that He so loved the World that He gave His only Son
...that includes you and me. 

How is it that god gave his only son as a sacrifice to die for ours sins yet we are punished for these sins which you keep claiming he died for , so if our sins are not wiped clean he didn’t die for them did he?

How is it a “ great sacrifice “ to die for a weekend only to get eternal life in return?

****God did not create you to die in Hell but gave you the option...He did not program you and He did not influence you to make the decision for Hell...you did so on your own volition. God desires your love for Eternity but sadly, you have opted to reject same. You could, just as easily, turn from your sin and trust in Jesus as Lord at this very moment...

I’m an Atheist but let’s say there is a god I didn’t “choose” to go to Hell god is making that choice for me , the scenario you present is the very same as a new mafia boss in the neighborhood who walks into your business and says “ lovely business you have here , it would be a shame to lose it if you don’t pay homage to me weekly you will loose everything”

How is this any different?

MayCaesar

"Let me give humans free will. Oh, and they are not actually allowed to use that free will, otherwise I will have to send them to Hell. I do not want them to be sent there though, because I love them, so, to warn them about this fate, I will send in a book full of contradictions and a bunch of priests that cannot answer the simplest questions without employing logical fallacies and yelling threats. Those who do not listen to those priests, well... I love them, so I will torture them for eternity."

If someone who was not familiar with Christianity read this, they would probably think that it has been written by a mental asylum patient. Yet by conditioning people from a very young age, it is possible for them to learn to actually rationalise all this somehow. It is truly an amazing phenomenon what you can get people to believe in if you try really hard! Reminds me of how in Soviet Union people reconciled the idea of Lenin being physically immortal with his corpse laying in a mausoleum on the Red Square.

Dee

@MayCaesar

Yes indeed , get them young and you can convince them of anything in the case of religion anyway , as they grow up any doubts they have don’t register because if everyone else is doing it sure it must be right.

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD ;

What an atheist loser. You do not even care when you lie and here you are, an atheist, trying to make Christians look as immoral as they are.

People see it and respect for your ilk disappears. 

Then again, that is your goal isn't it.

Regards
DL

GnosticChristian

@RickeyD ;



You are a poor Christian but let's see what kind of man you are. 
If a man that is.

If you, as a father, decided that a blood sacrifice was required, would you send your son or would you step up yourself?

Quote your way out of this one.

Regards
DL 

GnosticChristian

GnosticChristian