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Ok bruh
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Like this verse in the nkjv:
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Kind of like someone dropping a thermonuclear bomb on a city which kills a million people, then saying, "Hey, I did not explode the bomb, I only dropped it - it exploded on its own!"
I wonder if the Bible should be nominated for the book with the largest number of contradictions in human history? What would even other contestants be? Quran and Torah... Maybe Das Capital... Possibly a couple of Mao's, Lenin's or Kim Il Sung's books... That is about it.
Actually, no, forget I said anything... God Emperor of Dune exists.
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A better comparison would be a mad scientist creating a factory of robot killers from scratch. Do you think he would not be responsible for the ensuing slaughter?
As for what I prefer - I love freedom. That love does not prevent me from logically understanding that the concept of "free will" makes no sense. We are all products of our chemistry and laws of physics. I am a biological robot, as are you and everyone else. Whether we like it or not, it is what it is. I may not like gravity; does not make me pretend that it does not exist.
Your argument about me benefitting from it is much like Soviet communists saying, "You are guaranteed a job by the government and profit from that job, yet you complain about it? Hypocrite". Or like Western socialists saying that you do not get to complain about taxation when you drive on roads built off taxes. It is a silly argument, and you surely understand why, right?
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The following contains a Bible verse about personal responsibility in the text. Please read at your own risk of being offended.
MayCaesar said:
Now don't go blaming God for your own behavior. As the Bible says:
For we are each responsible for our own conduct. - Galatians 6:5 NLT
Sorry @Dreamer, I know that had to hit ya like a snow plow running over a snowman. I'll add a trigger warning.
God is not responsible for our behavior. We are. So don't blame God for your choices. God is just, so we will reward each of us according to our own actions. For Christians, we believe that this world is not the end of our lives, but only the beginning.
You are free to love and free to hate. And God is free to be God over it all and hold each of accountable for our conduct. God is not unjust for doing that. You are not a mindless robot. You have the ability to make your own choices. Enjoy the freedom your Creator gave you, but make wise choices.
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If you know anything about me, you know that I always take 100% responsibility for everything that happens in my life, whether I have any degree of control over it or not. But it is not me we are talking about here; it is about god and what she is responsible for. She does not get to create humanity the way she did, then have humanity engage in things like Holocaust and Holodomor, then shrug and say, "Oh, I had nothing to do with that. I gave them free will, and look what they did". What kind of a brainless designer is it that can create such complex beings, but cannot predict what those beings are going to do?
Create humans, give them the ability to kill and enslave each other, put them on a limited territory with scarce resources, and make their survival dependent on controlling those resources... What could go wrong, right?
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@Just_Sayin
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Without God, there can be no objective evil. Nature, if that is all there is, has no moral intentions. Things just are reactions to the forces exerted on them. Your very mind, would then be the product of imperfect natural processes that don't care about moral intentions, only reacting to the environment around it. The fact that you think that your brain created by nature can even tell you what is good or evil, would then be logically inconsistent. How can you depend upon that which was made by random processes to be dependable. Answer - you can't. Evil in a world without God is just your opinion, and who is to say that your opinion has any more validity than a pedophile's or serial murderers? Answer, you can't make that assertion. So, if you are conceding that objective evil exist, then you are admitting that an objective lawgiver exists. I accept you admission that God exists.
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Well I don't think you understood my argument. Either that or you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. Either way, if you care to address the actual content of my argument then I'd be happy to reposnd.
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I'm going to point this out to you and then call you on it every time you do it. You want to appeal to a moral system dependent upon an understanding that God exists, but then claim God doesn't exist. If that is what you believe, then you can't claim 'evil' as anything more than personal preference.
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Now, loop over every single instance of a human suffering - and you can imagine a world in which this would be impossible. It would be a world in which people still could make choices, they just would not be able to, say, slaughter millions by choice.
You said something interesting though: that god allowing nature to hurt humans is not evil. If deliberately building a world in which nature consistently hurts humans is not evil, then what is? It seems to me that you can attribute "evil" to humans without attributing it to god only by explicitly defining "evil" as something that only humans can create. When a god does something nasty, it cannot be evil by definition.
But that is a silly definition. It is like saying, "I define everyone who murders someone a murderer, except for me - when I murder someone, I am not a murderer, but a saint". Not a very useful definition, you see. Good definitions apply universally and do not depend on who uses them.
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What would be unjust and messed up is if God made you go to heaven and be with Him when you don't want Him in your life. God gave you a choice in the matter. If you don't want to spend your life with God in it, then you will spend your eternity without God in it. Would you think it just for a man to force his ex to live with him? Nope. She is free to live without him in her life. Hell is just you getting what you wanted, and what you deserve all in one.
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Exactly. Hence why I am not responding. He basically just repeated the same strawman. I don't really see the logic in responding to arguments never made by oneself. I guess it was decided by him to continue to avoid the content of my message.
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Then you use the legal system as an analogy for your argument. But the proof the prosecution has to satisfy is under the written established rule of law, not any criteria for freewill; or notions of inherent righteousness determining good and evil by its mere presence. Furthermore your analogy if anything points to freewill being suppressed, that conduct not allowed. Don't do it or else. Your god says believe or else. Neither one suggest freewill. And it's not even concerned about bad deeds, you profess on your death bed and you're in. All that matters is believe or else. No freewill involved.
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For some reason, as I mentioned in my previous comment, you are okay with god committing many actions that, when committed by humans, are viewed as atrocities. Since a human condemning another human for years of torture is seen as evil, why would a god who intentionally does that not be evil from the human's perspective?
Honestly, Biblical god comes across as the pettiest prick in the Universe ("meta-verse", whatever you call the world in your conception). "You do not want me in you life? How dare you! Here is eternity in hell for you!" Why would anyone worship a F-d up creature like this?
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The title claim in this thread is that "God if far more evil than the devil". What I like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, is irrelevant. The claim is that if god exists and is what the Bible claims it is, then it is a strongly evil creature, and so far every argument in opposition to this claim has seemed to only further support this claim. "No, god is not evil, he just wants you to kiss his feet, otherwise suffer for eternity" - that does little to defend god from criticism, but does a lot to show what kind of people defend said god.
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"Love cannot be forced, coerced, love cannot exist in an atmosphere of fear and trembling... So love me, or suffer in hell for eternity!
"I did not create evil. I just created free will a byproduct of which is evil!"
Your "Elohim" is quite a genius.
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Regarding God punishing people. You argued that you didn't want God in your life. Hell grants you your eternal wish. Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me? Why do you think your disdain for God will change in hell? Do you think you'll finally want to follow Him in hell? If not, don't get mad at him for punishing sin, which is essentially treason because it is a rejection of God's authority, for your punishment. God provided you with opportunities along the way to respond to him. Don't get mad at him for giving you a future without God, that you wanted.
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Hell was created not for me, but for one of the angels who dared to oppose god - which makes it so much better, of course *snicker* - however, I will still end up there, and it is my fault and not god's, because god created it, and...
I think I will need to hit myself in the head with a hammer at least 200 times for any of this to start sounding sensible.
I do not know what it means to be "above" someone. When I kill microbes, I do not claim that I am benevolent towards microbes - I am indifferent towards them. But does the Bible not claim that god loves his children? If I loved microbial forms to the extent that the god claims to love his children, I would kill myself right here right now, as I would not be able to live with myself. And if I had created literal hell for microbes where they go after they die to suffer for eternity... why, I would see myself as the greatest villain ever to appear in this Universe.
It seems to me that god gives much fewer F-s about his creations. From the human perspective we would say that god is extremely evil. And I do not see the point of talking about "evil" from any other perspective given that it is inaccessible to us. And if you extent your reasoning further, then you should not be able to call anyone's actions evil but yourselves, because, at the end of the day, no one is equal to you. All humans are different. I am different from you: you cannot know what it is like to be me, and you cannot see the world from my perspective - so if I slaughter a village, how could you call my actions evil?
I have no "disdain for god". I just do not care about him if he exists, and especially do not care about him if he does not exist. Is it too much to ask of such an omni-wise being to just let me be as I let him and his followers be? I do not "get mad" at something I do not believe exists - I am just saying that your god appears to be a pretty twisted creature, and why you would want to worship something that is so set out to make you lick his feet so you escape his punishment, I have no idea. It seems to me that the only valid reason would be fear, much like slaves fear their slavemasters. Fair enough, but I do not know anyone who glorifies slaves worshipping their master - so, again, it appears that we are dealing with something extremely sick and twisted here. And glorifying actions caused by fear seems extremely pathetic and cowardly to me.
That the Biblical god appears so evil does not bother me nearly as much as the fact that so many of his followers love him for it. Loving someone for enslaving you - that is just... well, I guess it is pretty human, is it not?
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Okay, now that I have a bit more time, I will respond to you. First, I will address and remove the strawman argument you've attributed to me by clarifying my actual position. Nowhere in my critique of your argument do I suggest or imply an advocacy for a world where free will is never exercised. Even within this strawman of yours, there are numerous logical issues, but I do not want to get sidetracked. Since my position critiques your argument, which heavily relies on the concept of free will as a justification for the existence of evil—suggesting that God gave humans free will, and therefore, He is not responsible for the evil actions they choose—I will continue along those lines.
Okay, this was the argument I was examining. As stated, if God is omnipotent, He has the power to create a world in which free will exists without the presence of evil. If God is omnibenevolent, it would be within His nature to want to prevent suffering. The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God appears contradictory. Again, this has nothing to do with desiring a world where free will is never exercised. In case you missed it, MayCaesar actually grasped this concept and was able to elaborate on it. What's going on here is a deeper exploration regarding the compatibility of God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence with the existence of evil, and thus God's accountability. There indeed appear to be issues here. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God, by definition, would possess both the power to create a world where free will does not lead to evil and the desire to prevent unnecessary suffering.
Furthermore, parental responsibility is not analogous to divine responsibility; far from it. Unlike humans, God is omniscient (all-knowing) and capable of foreseeing the outcomes of His creations' actions. Moreover, God's omnipotence means he has the power to intervene or guide His creations in a way that parents of adult children can't.
You also fail to address natural evil (which you later conflate with moral evil). It seems like you are under the notion that evil is solely a byproduct of human agency. In addition to that, you have overlooked other philosophical and theological aspects. For instance, some doctrines present arguments for a compatibilist view of free will, where free will can coexist with a certain degree of divine or natural determinism.
Lastly, much like societies establish laws to limit harmful actions while preserving individual freedoms, it is thus conceivable that a world could theoretically exist where beings are free to make choices within a framework that limits the capacity for causing harm. The question then becomes why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would not create a world that maximizes love and minimizes suffering more effectively.
Now, I look forward to your response. Hopefully, you can address the challenges put forward here this time without resorting to definitional fallacies, false dilemmas, begging the question, arguments from ignorance, or straw men.
@just_sayin
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And the only reason why the Devil is evil is because God deems him so and Gods reasons are simply because he opposes God and tried to warn people of God lol. What's more is that God would have created the Devil knowing that he would rebel, in fact actually creating him to directly rebel him lol.
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Why is it wrong for God the ultimate judge to judge you and me?
Because it prevents freewill. Biblically anyways, it's not anything proven to be real so... I don't want its judgment.
In your book in isaia 1:18 it says...Come now, and let us reason together...
It goes on to say our sin is like scarlet and he'll make it like wool. Well I like red better than white. It's not reasonable to submit to a creature that doesn't care about murder and rape, (beyond nominally mentioning them to put unbelievers with). You don't have to confess nothing you've done, except unbelief. The ten commandments, the first four are how our wills must comply to his. Then it will discuss actions and deeds. Theoretically, it's unwise to trust the judgment of a thing which has its priorities as thus: worship and obey or else, anything and everything is fine by me, but do not die distrusting me, or else. Wreaks of the lunacy that guides putin on the world stage. If your god truly wanted you to have freewill, you could walk away knowing he won't take vengeances. Ah but that's the problem, huh? You believe it will take vengeance, you believe it is vengeful, you believe the word when it says 'I am a vengeful god...'. Once again your faith guides you, not intellect.
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@Factfinder
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LOL Dam that was good!
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Ah but god is the author of evil. https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/173567/#Comment_173567
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full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[b] emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.[c]
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;[d] you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you. Ezekiel 28 (ESV)
18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18 (ESV)
______________________________
Elohim created YOU knowing that you would choose servitude to the Devil as opposed to the love and compassion Elohim expressed in Jesus our Messiah...here you are...Elohim has allowed you to choose whom you will serve...He is not a respecter of persons...you will receive exactly what you have chosen.
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