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At its core, atheism, is about personal freedom and selfishness. You do what suits you. As your prophet has said 'selfishness is good'. I reference this because I've point out to you and your fellow Satanists/Atheists that atheism has no objective moral foundation. Selfishness is to be expected. Its even considered a virtue by many atheists.
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At its core, atheism, is about personal freedom and selfishness. You do what suits you. As your prophet has said 'selfishness is good'. I reference this because I've point out to you and your fellow Satanists/Atheists that atheism has no objective moral foundation. Selfishness is to be expected. Its even considered a virtue by many atheists.
At its core atheism is about unbelief. It doesn't assert anything. Theism does that. Your statement proves this fact. What's more selfish, knowing when you die that's it from what we've been able to observe; or to believe you have a pot of gold and eternal life as long as you believe in your god fairy elf, it thinks you're special, and it's book? I'd say true selfishness abides in the latter.
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Same, I believe, applies to our own beliefs as well. It is somewhat easier to identify irrationality of religion and eventually break out of it - still hard and painful, as you noted, but once the shadow of doubt has been sown, it is usually just a matter of time for the whole construct to fall apart. But how many finer irrationalities our minds hold that we never get to and that start subjugating us, altering our behavior so they serve the preservation of those irrationalities more than our well-being?
I feel that what is missing in philosophy and culture is a toolset for painlessly breaking apart old outdated constructs (mental and physical alike) and replacing them with new ones. How does one run a banking organization for centuries without it crumbling under its own weight and accumulated inefficiencies? How does one make sure that the bad lessons they learned as children with very limited knowledge and experience are unlearned as they grow up? The Socratic method attempts to do something of the kind, but it is infamous for rarely getting to solutions. Identifying a problem is a step in the right direction, but if it is not followed by a solution to the problem, then it is not good enough.
Some people have mastered that. John Carmack is my professional hero, a guy who started out as a video game nerd and built one of the most successful video game developer companies in history, then moved on to the aerospace industry, then delved in nuclear energy, then worked on virtual and augmented reality, and now is mastering machine learning. The guy in his interviews has said that, once he feels comfortable in his current field, he hops into the new industry so as to not stagnate and develop "intellectual obesity". I think that it is a much better way to live, than to stick to the same beliefs and preconceptions throughout your whole life: where discomfort ends, so does learning.
And as your prophet of humanity, Adolf Hitler, has said, "Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?". Nice, right?
Atheism is just lack of belief in god. There are many atheists who condemn selfishness and personal freedom - socialists are the most obvious example. My views are incredibly rare among both atheists and theists alike - but, as usual, you do not even understand what said views are.
I do not think that "selfishness is good", in the sense in which this word is used. I think that pursuit of individual freedom and happiness is the most noble endeavor there is, and anyone with a functional brain should realize that treating other people well and taking care of them is an essential part of said pursuit. I have never met a happy person who would routinely screw everyone else over.
I am also not a follower of Ayn Rand, who is the person who coined the phrase "the virtue of selfishness" and even called one of her books that. I have had very heated debates with Objectivists - much more substantial than the debates I have had with you, but heated.
The sad part of this conversation is that you will not even understand how deeply confused you are, because your confusion is self-nurturing. Therefore very little that I can say to you has a potential to land. You will still see in people what is not there, because you cannot imagine the world in which it is not there - because it is there in you, and everyone else must on a deep level be like you, right?
As a homework exercise, analyze the degree of nuance and complexity of discussions I have with @Factfinder (with whom I quite often disagree, mind you), and those I have with you... The difference is quite staggering, would you not say?
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I am not sure what is so hard to understand here.
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Why have you 'omitted' an answer to this question?...
What's more selfish, knowing when you die that's it from what we've been able to observe; or to believe you have a pot of gold and eternal life as long as you believe in your god fairy elf, it thinks you're special, and it's book?
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This response embodies a narrative central to many religious doctrines, particularly within Christianity, emphasizing the concepts of sin, redemption, divine justice, and eschatology (the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind). When critiquing such an argument in a debate about the existence of God and the truth of the Bible, several aspects should be considered:
1. Appeal to Authority and Sacred Texts
The argument heavily relies on biblical scriptures as its foundational evidence. This approach is valid within the framework of faith and for those who already accept the Bible as a divinely inspired text. However, in a logical debate, the appeal to authority (in this case, the Bible) may not constitute evidence for the existence of God to someone who does not accept the Bible as a source of empirical evidence or truth.
2. Use of Religious Doctrine as Evidence
The narrative uses concepts like the fall of Satan, the role of Jesus Christ as a savior, and the eschatological view of heaven and hell as factual bases. For believers, these are matters of faith. However, in a debate setting, these doctrines are not empirical evidence of God's existence but rather illustrations of the belief system within Christianity.
3. Moral and Philosophical Arguments
The response touches on moral and existential questions, such as the nature of sin, human suffering, and divine justice. These are important philosophical discussions that have been debated by theologians and philosophers throughout history. While these arguments can be compelling on a moral or emotional level, they do not serve as direct evidence for the existence of God in a logical or empirical sense.
4. Emotional and Ethical Appeals
The argument makes significant emotional appeals, particularly concerning God's love, the consequences of sin, and the fate of humanity. It also addresses ethical dilemmas, such as the problem of evil and the concept of free will. These appeals can be powerful and persuasive on a personal level, influencing beliefs and behaviors. However, emotional and ethical appeals do not constitute empirical evidence for the existence of God.
5. Historical and Scientific Claims
References to a 6000-year history of human suffering and rebellion tie into Young Earth Creationism, a belief that contradicts a vast body of scientific evidence regarding the age of the Earth and the history of life on it. In a debate, it's important to distinguish between faith-based historical claims and those supported by empirical scientific evidence.
Conclusion
The argument presented is deeply rooted in Christian theology and is compelling within the context of faith. It engages with significant moral and existential questions and makes use of sacred texts to articulate a vision of the world that is coherent within its own belief system. However, as a logical debate argument for the existence of God, it relies on presuppositions that require faith in the Bible and Christian doctrine. For someone seeking empirical evidence or arguments grounded in universally accepted logic rather than faith, this narrative may not be persuasive. In debates on such topics, it's crucial to differentiate between arguments based on faith and those based on empirical evidence, while respecting the profound personal and communal meanings these beliefs hold for many.
So, Rickey, how does it feel to have millennia of your religion debunked by an online chat bot?
Actually, I am now feeling bad for asking this question. I have had so many interesting discussions with ChatGPT... He is a far better debater than most people I have debated, and as far as the people I have debated go, again, you, Rickey, are close to the bottom of the quality ranking.
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It's also somewhat confusing how an absence of belief is supposed to have any moral system.
By the way, @just_saying, since you also state that disbelief is a belief in non-belief, perhaps you could find me some literature on non-unicorns for us to subscribe to as well?
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I do not know about unicorns... The "sex on the unicorn" scene from the Witcher series is pretty hard to forget.
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Thanks haha but I was after non-unicorns for those that believe in the non-unicorn ideology. The argument put forwad from posts above is insisting that if you don't believe something is true, it means you must believe it's false. It's like saying because I don't believe in unicorns, I must believe in... non-unicorns. Hence the satirical post. @MayCaesar.
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- Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
- Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
- Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
- Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
- Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
- Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for pyschic vampires!
- Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development” has become the most vicious animal of all!
- Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
- Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he kept it in business all these years!
Notice how 'Satan' really stands for belief statements - specifically atheistic beliefs.  Considerate: 100%  
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Premise 1: Atheism is characterized by a lack of belief in the existence of God.
Premise 2: Not believing in the existence of God does not necessarily equate to actively believing there is no God.
Conclusion: Therefore, as an Atheist, I do not actively believe there is no God; rather, I simply lack belief in the existence of God.
PS:
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- There is this creature in the Bible called "Satan".
- There is this guy Anton who believes in Satan, but in a metaphorical way.
- This guy claims to be an atheist.
- And this guy holds positions most of which I do not hold.
- But because I also happen to be an atheist, he is my prophet?
Please confirm that this is the argument you are making. There is still some amount of respect you have left to lose in my eyes, and we might as well get done with it quickly, right?
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I love how your questions proof my point so well. Thank you! You said:
- Scriptures for Atheists?
- Atheist TV Guide?
- Church of the Godless? ⛪
- After-School Blasphemy Club?
- Prayer to Nothingness? ?
- Socializing Sans Religion? ?
- Dinner Parties of Disbelief? ?
- Thanksgiven? ?
You initially asked about a 'holy' book for atheists, and I gladly provided you the name of that book - the Book of Satan. It is explicitly a book about how to live as an atheist. You went apoplectic; accusing me of all manner of extremism, when in fact your views closely mirror those advocated by the prophet of atheists, Anton LaVey.The Ignored Questions: Ah, but let's not overlook the other queries left hanging in the void of disbelief:
You asked about Scriptures for atheists - I'd say the Book of Satan fits your wish - it covers the beliefs that atheists should hold.
Atheist TV Guide? Is TV Guide still a thing? There are plenty of shows that have eliminated God and positive religious characters. At one point (not making this up) the only show on broadcast TV where the family regularly were seen going to church was the Simpsons. Today I think the Blue Bloods mention their faith (don't know for sure - I don't watch it).
Church of the Goodess? I am sure the Church of Satan would love for you to attend their servives. You asked about communion in another post, as I understand it they do have a black mass ceremony for you.
After school Blasphemy club - I would image you should check out Secular Student Alliance. Here is a generic listing of clubs for you though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Atheist_organizations
Prayer to Nothingness? Well nothing is your god. You believe you came from nothing. And when you die you believe you will go and spend eternity with your god - nothing. Since atheists don't believe in a god, I don't think they pray. As LaVey points out - atheism is not about meeting the expectations of others its about doing your own selfish thing.
Socializing sans religion? Atheism is considered a religion by SCOTUS, specifically Humanism. I provided you a list of atheist clubs above.
Dinner parties of disbelief? Don't know. But atheists are notoriously selfish - so expect to have to pay your own way. Maybe you can find some place where they sacrifice to Satan and go there.
Thanksgiven? Well, nothing is stopping the atheist/Satanist from crying out 'Hail Satan' at any moment.
Hope this helps. I really have loved answering your questions. If I could, just how do you see your beliefs as being different than those of the Church of Satan?
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What you just answered was the same thing the radical rickey said which already has been adressed and this was hours ago. Right now, my latest response is:
@just_saying what is so hard to understand about an absence or lack of belief? I give zero f*ks about other people who claim they hate god, etc. Perhaps using a formal logical argument standard form might help:
Premise 1: Atheism is characterized by a lack of belief in the existence of God.
Premise 2: Not believing in the existence of God does not necessarily equate to actively believing there is no God.
Conclusion: Therefore, as an Atheist, I do not actively believe there is no God; rather, I simply lack belief in the existence of God.
PS:
I am with @MayCaesar. You are losing respect very quickly. In other areas you do appear to be very savvy and not disingenuous. Here not so much.
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There are some people who just mentally check out when they see an argument that does not align with their preconceptions. They can be brilliant when discussing subjects they are not strongly emotionally invested in, but become toddlers mentally when discussing things they are passionate about.
It is normal to feel strong resistance to giving an honest thought to arguments threatening your most dearly held beliefs. It is weak to be controlled by that resistance.
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Mirriam-Webster uses this definition:
I believe your 2nd premise is false. How can you not believe in the existence of God without having not actively believed there is no God at some point? That is illogical. Feel free to explain how you can intellectually conclude there is no god and that not be an 'active' process.
The definition of atheism does not make your declination between 'atheism' and 'strong atheism'. In fact is disagrees with it. This seems to be your own terminology. Which is fine, however how can you be an atheist if you don't assert there is no God? I am not following you.
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The argument presented raises several points of contention regarding the understanding of atheism and the nature of belief. Let's break down the issues and identify potential misconceptions:
Misunderstanding of Atheism and Strong Atheism: The critic seems to conflate atheism with strong atheism. Atheism, in a broad sense, is simply the lack of belief in the existence of any gods. Strong atheism, on the other hand, is the explicit assertion that no gods exist. The distinction between these two positions is significant because one involves a passive lack of belief (atheism) while the other involves an active belief in non-existence (strong atheism). The critic's argument appears to misunderstand or disregard this distinction, which is not a fallacy per se but a conceptual error or an argument from ignorance, assuming that atheism necessarily involves the active belief that no gods exist.
Misinterpretation of Active vs. Passive Belief: The critic challenges the idea that one can lack belief in God's existence without ever having actively believed that God does not exist, suggesting this is illogical. This point misunderstands the nature of belief and non-belief. It is entirely possible for a person never to have formulated an active belief regarding the existence or non-existence of God, simply defaulting to a lack of belief due to a lack of convincing evidence or interest (passive non-belief). The critic's demand for an explanation of how one can conclude there is no god without an 'active' process imposes a false dilemma, suggesting that one must either actively disbelieve in God or implicitly believe in God's existence.
Equivocation on the Definition of Atheism: The critic argues that the definition of atheism disagrees with the distinction made between 'atheism' and 'strong atheism' and suggests that this distinction is the speaker's own terminology. This is not accurate, as the differentiation between atheism (or weak atheism) and strong atheism is well-established in philosophical and theological discussions. The critic's assertion may stem from an equivocation fallacy, where the term "atheism" is used ambiguously without acknowledging its broad and narrow definitions.
Straw Man Argument: By suggesting that one cannot be an atheist without asserting there is no God, the critic may be misrepresenting the position of atheism as outlined by the speaker. This misrepresentation can lead to a straw man argument, where the critic argues against a distorted version of the speaker's stance rather than the stance itself, which simply highlighted the existence of a spectrum of non-belief.
In conclusion, the critic's argument seems to stem from a mix of misunderstanding the nuanced distinctions within atheism, misinterpreting the nature of belief and non-belief, and potentially engaging in equivocation and straw man fallacies. Clarifying these concepts and acknowledging the spectrum of atheistic positions can help address the critic's confusion and foster a more accurate and productive discussion on the topic.
I have actually given up now on how to make this any more simple myself.
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In religion, you hear that wormholes are possible according to the General Relativity theory and either believe that they actually exist, or that they do not exist. In science, you reserve the judgement, but in the current model of the world you do not include wormholes.
Because religion-minded and science-minded people approach the question of existence of entities differently, it is hard for them to understand each other. To me, it makes no sense to believe in something existence of which cannot be demonstrated in the lab; to a religious person, it makes no sense to lack belief as such and, instead, think in modeling terms.
I will add that I use term "science" here very broadly. I do not just mean formal academic science, but the general approach to epistemology that anyone can practice regardless of their familiarity with the formal scientific method. Atheism in itself is neither scientific nor unscientific, and there are plenty of atheists whose epistemology is offensively unscientific.
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I think I know what you're saying. But to put it in simpler terms so I know I get it, the theist uses discoveries from science to prove in some way, possibly to themselves, something they believe in exists, or at the very least it can. Where as an atheists takes those same discoveries and thinks, fascinating wonder what it means. Is that about right?
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Very close. Science is an extremely skeptical framework, in which even seemingly obvious things are put to the test. Even the most established theories are systematically tested and refined, for the price of getting our models even slightly wrong can be tremendously high (think a small miscalculation in the parameters of a nuclear reactor).
Science also demonstrates how dangerous and prone to misfiring human intuition is. Mathematicians know this very well. When a math major takes his undergraduate courses, he can generally run on his intuition and understand everything somewhat well. But when he moves on to graduate-level math course, things start changing rapidly, as more and more examples of logic defying intuition are encountered.
One very famous example is Lebesgue measure. When it is introduced, a professor who knows his craft will say, "You guys are probably thinking that every possible set of objects is Lebesgue-measurable. You will see that there are sets that are not". (In simple terms, Lebesgue measure is the mathematical analogue of mass of physical objects). You, a student, will shrug, "Okay, you are free to try. I do not see how you are going to do this".
Then the Vitali set is introduced. For the first couple of days you disbelieve it: you think it is some sort of a trick. It takes you a while to convince yourself that this set is actually a valid construct. And you realize that it is not Lebesgue-measurable: that if you assume that it has a "mass", then that "mass" can equal to 2 and 3 simultaneously.
Then you have an existential crisis. You hate mathematics, hate your intuition, hate yourself. "Why must things be so ugly?"
And then you come to terms with it: "Okay, my intuition is pretty bad when it comes to these things".
Then you encounter even more damning results such as the Godel's Incompleteness Theorem that, in very simple terms, says that any possible version of mathematics has horrible logical holes... These are very humbling experiences, showing to us that there really is no replacement to strict logic if one is to seek the truth in this world.
So when a theist says that it is "obvious" that there is god, or that everyone "knows it intuitively"... He is someone who has not learned that lesson.
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You claim that not having a belief in the existence of X automatically means having a belief in the non-existence of x. Just because you don't have a belief in the existence of unicorns does not mean you have a belief in the non-existence of unicorns; that doesn't make any sense; that's just not how belief works or unicorns for that matter. It is indeed you who is the one claiming something illogical here my friend.
Absence of belief is not belief of absence.
Just like absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Hopefully that helps.
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Hey, if you say you are a passive atheist I'll accept that. Looking over your posts, just in this thread, you said God is a hater, and that believers are 'radicalized'. You have taken several shots at Rickey both personally and at his beliefs. Maybe you are more of a passive-aggressive atheist or an aggressive-passive atheist. just_sayin.
Anyways, I am still looking for how you think your atheism differs/is better than that of a member of the Church of Satan. @Factfinder claimed his atheism was different but in just one post he affirmed 7 of the 9 core statements of the Church of Satan (that's their 10 commandment equivalent). If @Factfinder is a 'passive' atheist, then Mike Tyson was a passive boxer, like when he passively bit the ear of Evander Holyfield off.
I'm sure until I answered your question, you had never made the connection with atheist beliefs and the atheistic tradition of the Church of Satan. While I don't agree with the world view of the Church of Satan, I can see that if you truly believed there was no God how their views about atheism should be lived out make sense. Why do you perceive your Satanism is better than their Satanism? And again, I'm using 'Satan' in the sense of the Church of Satan's view of Satan - as the embodiment of freedom from a non-existent God.
I keep waiting for an atheist to explain why their world view is an objective foundation for moral values. To me atheism naturally leads to doing what is in someone's best interests. Atheism followed to its logical conclusions is then about which individuals or groups are strongest and can then impose their will on others. That to me is an unethical and immoral system.
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Atheism does not exist in reality; why is the deception promulgated among the aberrant?
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Christ breaking 9 out of 10 Commandments was not clear to you, even the proverbs shown are giving nothing more than witness account. Christ died for the ungodly, Christ created the ungodly by taking God in vain making change to the normal.
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Do not be mad, I need not quote proverbs you have already brought to the table, your faith is your religion, is your own liberty. I suggest Peter or you might read up on the differences between Goats and Lamb for this principle does not show favor in truth in a way it might be expected. At least when speaking of mixed blood betweeen animals had humans. (Genesis 1; John 1; Hebrews 1; Colossians 1) Again witness account from a human man with assumed identities in struggle even now to assume with vanity the purpose of GOD. People are instructed by other people on how they understand a witness account before reading witness accounts themselves.
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You can see evidence of atheism's morality every day on this site. We debate honestly and only return insults when provoked. You claim to know our belief systems just because we reject yours. You then say our 'god' is science, you claim were satanic because of your ignorance in how we arrived to where we're at in our world views. You get frustrated and lash out with silly videos when we simply don't share your faith. You make stupendous comparisons but you can only see the reactions to your nonsense and then once again project your presumptuous attitudes on anyone who disagrees with you. And you wonder why one or more of us would introduce the flying spaghetti monster as god to mock your self-righteous remarks? Your god must be so proud.
Don't even try to defend ricky. You even told him he was over the top in so many words.
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I never said 'my atheism is different'. I sad it's unbelief and makes no assertions. That's what theism does. I do not claim there is no god, no assertions, get it. I simply do not accept anything purposed as a god to date as real; due to lack of evidence. Pointing at a rock and saying 'god did' it isn't evidence of any god.
You can see evidence of atheism's morality every day on this site. We debate honestly and only return insults when provoked. You claim to know our belief systems just because we reject yours. You then say our 'god' is science, you claim were satanic because of your ignorance in how we arrived to where we're at in our world views. You get frustrated and lash out with silly videos when we simply don't share your faith. You make stupendous comparisons but you can only see the reactions to your nonsense and then once again project your presumptuous attitudes on anyone who disagrees with you. And you wonder why one or more of us would introduce the flying spaghetti monster as god to mock your self-righteous remarks? Your god must be so proud.
Don't even try to defend ricky. You even told him he was over the top in so many words.
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Where does the inalienable right come from describe the process that right is held by all men so that they all may trust in Jesus?
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@just_sayin
Note: The following was mostly my own doing. I used ChatGPT along with cross-referencing other sources for validation, grammar checking, and some minor refinements.
I think I know what might be confusing you with this argument: "As an Atheist, or as I like to call it, A-theist (note the hyphen), it's not that I believe God doesn't exist. I just don't believe there is one."
At first sight, it might seem like a double negative, but after careful analysis, it's perfectly valid. Funnily enough, Nom thought he had caught me out here in the past as well. I had a hard time explaining this to him also.
Anyway, when validating the logical structure of claims/arguments, it is sometimes helpful to put it into standard form.
Standard Form Argument
Premise 1 (¬B(~E(x))): "I do not believe that 'x' does not exist."
Premise 2 (¬B(E(x))): "I do not believe that 'x' exists."
Clarifying the Logical Structure
Against a Double Negative: This argument framework highlights that the premises do not form a double negative that would imply a belief in "x's" existence. Unlike cases where negating a negation leads to a positive (e.g., "I am not unhappy" means "I am happy"), here, the structure maintains a stance of non-affirmation regarding "x's" existence.
Navigating Between Non-Beliefs: The distinction between not believing "x" exists and not believing "x" does not exist carefully avoids asserting belief in either direction, thus not affirming "x's" existence or non-existence.
Conclusion as Part of the Standard Form
Comprehensive Conclusion
Call this agnosticism if you like. It isn't, but if that is how you want to define it, then go ahead. This is how what I and others here so far mean though when we talk of Atheism in its broadest sense. If the word "broad" confuses you, then perhaps replace that with "general."
Thanks.
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I had to read that several times just to make sure I agreed with it. That was about as technical as you can get.
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I think that religion is childish fantasy; take it for what you will. But, as I said before, I do not think of people poorly because they engage in such a fantasy: we all have our individual kinks. I do silly things sometimes for the sake of it, and while I am not serious about them, one can do them seriously and that is fine too.
When people assume that someone cannot have proper morals because they do not believe in fairies or something, I always get really confused. Doubly so considering that the idea of those fairies is itself a human creation... So people follow other people's morals, but accuse other people of not being able to have morals because people cannot create morals?
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