The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

**** Please provide your definition of wage gap.

Really you don’t know what a wage gap is?  Trump relies on people like you for a vote 

****When i said we have a word for that...we is the english language.

Oh , you’re a spokesman for the English language.....Right 

****I was basing my claim onnorevious conversations i had with you not bigotry.  

Really? Where did I voice my opinion on such before? 

****It was an assumption if you would of said that wasnt your view i would have accepted that.

You make a lot of assumptions which is why you never asked my view as you assumed it as you’re  a bigot 

****People are trying to force others.

Force how? 

  ***People are trying  to force others *In Canada it was almost made law and people fight for ending hate speech and forced pronouns here as well.

Those dreadful Canadians want people to stop others from discriminating and victimising those who are different , what a dreadful shower of people those Canadians are @Plaffelvohfen  how can you allow such outrages as a Canadian? 

MichaelElpers

@Happy_Killbot
I edited more in previous that id like you to see. Particularly your article claiming jordan peterson is an extremist.


Exposed doesnt mean effective, people believe all of googles information is reliable and they control what is at the top (more reliable) and what gets suppressed.
Google gets used 5.6 billion times per day.

I mean when posting your articles how many times did you use googles search engine.  Meanwhile you think political advertisements and russian bot tweeting and social media has more impact than the largest tech giant.  You know how many tweets, social and advertisements people see, most people dont rely on that as a main source of information and it doesnt have much effect.  People rely and believe that what google places on top is true and that is where they get the majority of their information.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

"Spin it however you want. America is in China's pocket. It's there in black and white."

Do you have a national bias against the United State's?

And the United Kingdom is in the pocket of the United States.

Put a United Kingdom spin on that @ZeusAres42.

MichaelElpers

@Dee. No the dictionary is and thats what those words have always meant.

I described what a wage gap is and asked what your definition is.  I cant be anymore clear.  Meanwhile you wont give an inkling to what you think it is.

Forced...by putting them in jail or fining them...is that good enough for you.  Somehow using a wrong pronoun should get you this but calling people racist, sexist, homophobic, jerks is totally fine.  How bout just have free speech.

I said those were probably your views to signify that i was assuming i didnt declare it.  But i was right anyway.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

The question is not only how many people were exposed to a certain narrative, but also what the amount of exposure was. People like to point at Russia pushing through political ads, but if someone using Facebook has seen two ads made by Russia and, say, 100 ads made by Google, then the Russian influence is not the primary concern.

As far as I am concerned, no political manipulation is wrong per say. Different groups and even governments are free to champion certain narratives, and those narratives can then fight each other on the free market of ideas. I do not see the big deal here.

I do share @MichaelElpers' doubt that Russia can strongly influence the American election as a whole, however. Everyone who has ever lived in Russia knows how corrupt and disfunctional that government is. That they can decide the election in the leading nation in the world? Please. They cannot even get people they want elected in their own country, despite a total control over the media space and regular murders and imprisonments of their opponents. Dictatorships tend to be that incompetent.

People tend to exaggerate everything in politics, thanks to the sensationalist media making a big fuzz out of every minor event. In reality, most things happening in the world do not affect anyone's life significantly, but one cannot hope to get high viewer counts by saying, "Another day gone. Nothing significant happened. Life goes on." There must always be dramas, conspiracies, manipulations - and they always must spell the end of the world. Otherwise the news just do not sell.

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

"Spin it however you want. America is in China's pocket. It's there in black and white."

Do you have a national bias against the United State's?

And the United Kingdom is in the pocket of the United States.

Put a United Kingdom spin on that @ZeusAres42.

No, just the arrogant morons like yourself. Some of the greatest people I've met are from the United States. You're nowhere near the likes of those decent, honest and informed guys. I could also ask you about being biased against the UK but I am not going to sink that low. I'm just reminding you that the money you say is out of your pocket (and I doubt you even have done a hard day's work in your life) is not yours. Basically, two can play that game, sir.

What's more, is it's gotta kinda suck ain't it to borrow money from a communist country (now kind of a capitalist country as well). Should we get another butthurt form for you to fill out again?

Now, I wasn't going to say this but since you're pushing it:

The USA is a country with more than three hundred million people and so will have more educated and intelligent people than the UK. But by contrast because of this number, they will also have far more down south redneck retards like yourself than what the UK does. And it's the work of the former that are responsible for more aid to other countries than what you could ever dream of and for that I am grateful.

You, sir, are the kind of Yank that thinks the USA won the Vietnam war, you're the one that thinks you're untouchable, you're the one that thinks the USA won the Second World War all by themselves, you're the yank that I have no time for! @TKDB

Sorry, but you asked for that.

Happy_Killbot

@MichaelElpers So first off, google doesn't provide the information it just directs internet traffic.

So the claims of Robert Epstein is that google tends to direct more traffic to those sites, however I did finally find it and based on what I can read, it is based on a subjective interpretation of bias in news sources. He also threw out the data representing people who were logged into Google and who are only tracked through ip address, so it is easy to be skeptical of the results as hard evidence. He never defines bias in in his study.

Which link says Jordan Peterson is an extremist? Of the 3 I posted only one mentions him and it is in a section which starts with "Some of the site’s videos are … well, they’re fine." While I don't agree with him on everything, I don't see any evidence that I made this claim unintentionally. 

I use DuckDuckGo as a search engine when looking for factual information because it is sorted by relevancy. Google is best when looking for products and services.

I'm not denying that google may have had a part to play, just that the relevancy of this is almost whole two orders of magnitude less than what Russia did actively.

If google did do this, we would have to find a motivation, and based on what I know about machine learning there might not have to be any abstract reason or agency like what you assign to google.

Let me explain- google uses a complex algorithm to track every search that is made and meta data about those searches. However, google's business model is based around directing traffic to those sites that pay google for promotion. This is why often the top search results are labeled as ads. Everything after this is based on popularity and number of links to other products. The auto-complete function is based on what other people are searching for and varies by region and language. They also try to remove hateful or negative content.

There are two things staring us in the face that may incidentally lead to left-wing promotion, even if that isn't the intention. First off, almost all coverage of Trump is negative and will be subsequently not suggested. The second is that maybe more left wing users use the internet, and this results in a higher popularity of left wing votes. 

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar Google doesn't make the ads, it just displays them. That's like blaming the billboard manufacturer for the content of the billboards.

The interference by Russia definitely happened, and odds are you have seen more than one of their ads or content made by one of there groups.

MichaelElpers

@Happy_Killbot. I feel like you think the russian ads have some sort of magical hypnotic powers over every other ad or social media post.  They blend in with everything else, not that powerful

Google determines what sites get the most views.  It would be like placing a billboard supporting liberals in a traffic area that gets 100,000,000 people and placing the republican in an area of 1000.  They are determining what news get views and how people view its validity.

Happy_Killbot

@MichaelElpers A few months ago I set up a bunch of twitter bots that's that had a single purpose- to spread a particular hashtag. In the span of just 4 days I had one of them #2 on trending. The tactic I was specifically using was to target a grass roots demographic through with messages that would combine their values with a target message. The fact that I, one person was able to do this with such success indicates that a professional agency with the resources of an organized government could do so much more.

The more I learn about information warfare the more I realize I should be studying virology. The similarity between the two is spooky to say the least.

Also I can debunk your theory easy fox news which is right-leaning is #2 after google news and before CNN:
 

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

Google does have a choice on what ads to display or not display, however. It would be naive to assume that Google treats all content equally, especially since its management has repeatedly stated explicitly that there is a complex decision-making process at play.

I know that the interference has happened. I question the significance of its impact on the election outcome, however. I have lived in Russia for many years myself, so I can recognise their ads immediately most of the time - and they generally do not resonate well with Americans.

Russia generally employs a fairly brute-force approach based on repetition, rather than argumentation. This approach works well in Russia, but not so much here. Chinese government is the one who really has its media game up, and its propaganda is much more effective and cunning, and harder to detect as well. Then again, I do not think China is highly interested in influencing foreign elections, and their approach is more gradual and insidious.

TKDB

@Plaffelvohfen, is Fist Bump your other foreign language?

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

All you did was stereotype me, according to your individualized opinion and perception.

And no, I didn't ask for your stereotyping, so could you please get back on topic? 

Again, I am not the theme of the forum, but the below is:

The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

"No, just the arrogant morons like yourself. Some of the greatest people I've met are from the United States. You're nowhere near the likes of those decent, honest and informed guys. I could also ask you about being biased against the UK but I am not going to sink that low. I'm just reminding you that the money you say is out of your pocket (and I doubt you even have done a hard day's work in your life) is not yours. Basically, two can play that game, sir.

What's more, is it's gotta kinda suck ain't it to borrow money from a communist country (now kind of a capitalist country as well). Should we get another butthurt form for you to fill out again?

Now, I wasn't going to say this but since you're pushing it:

The USA is a country with more than three hundred million people and so will have more educated and intelligent people than the UK. But by contrast because of this number, they will also have far more down south redneck retards like yourself than what the UK does. And it's the work of the former that are responsible for more aid to other countries than what you could ever dream of and for that I am grateful.

You, sir, are the kind of Yank that thinks the USA won the Vietnam war, you're the one that thinks you're untouchable, you're the one that thinks the USA won the Second World War all by themselves, you're the yank that I have no time for! @TKDB

Sorry, but you asked for that."

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar I'm not saying they don't, I'm saying that Russian interference is a much, much more potent means of manipulation.

Lets compare everything in these adds with things @RickeyD routinely says.

Whatever they did, it definitely worked on the resident fundamentalist.

Plaffelvohfen

@MayCaesar

You say you question the significance of its impact on the election outcome... I'd say you're probably mistaken about the assumed goal of the Russian, they are not playing the game people assume they play, a Trump presidency was not the goal, never was and still isn't...  

They are applying the Gerasimov Doctrine. Chaos is the strategy the Kremlin pursues... The objective is to achieve an environment of permanent unrest and conflict within an enemy state. Wouldn't you agree that it pretty well describe how it feels to live in the US these days and that it will get worst before it gets better??

They experimented with Georgia, Estonia and Lithuania, as the Obama administration downplayed concerns over a new Cold War. But all three countries now have parties with strong Russian financial connections leading their governments, then, during the 2014 protests there, the Kremlin supported extremists on both sides of the fight—pro-Russian forces and Ukrainian ultra-nationalists—fueling a conflict that the Kremlin used as a pretext to seize Crimea and launch the war in eastern Ukraine.

The US is just their latest and biggest target yet, and obviously they're winning at it, look around you...

By creating inflammatory fake websites and pushing fake news, specifically targeting radicalized audiences, on all side of the spectrum... Antifa, BLM, KKK, Neo-Nazies, PETA, you name it, it doesn't matter... As long as the target is prone to radical actions, or the issue is divisive or polarizing, it's a target of interest...

I assure you it would've been the same with an elected Clinton and to be honest, Russia probably expected a Clinton presidency and were prepared for it... Trump's personal character just happens to play very well in their game though, but it's just incidental... 

Wouldn't go as far as to presume that Putin's "Ultimate Goal" (whatever that could mean...meh) is to gain actual control of the US, nah, never was the goal... A distracted US was enough, but better yet a dysfunctional US, wow, that is useful!! That's all he need to have free rein in his East European backyard for the moment, as for the US well, he'll just see where this leads with a smile and eating popcorn... He is sowing chaos and just enjoys the blooming of the flowers, because Putin really is a poet you know... 

CYDdharta

Plaffelvohfen said:

@CYDdharta

The 1986 award, right? Yeah, thought so... 

Did you fallaciously state "Trump's record since the 70's is quite telling in regards to his racial views..."?  Yeah, I thought so...

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

***** Why are you bringing up Slick Willie?

You think I’m a “fan” of Bills? I’ve no time for the man you see unlike Americans such as you and your type I would never let party allegiance calling out people like this , but cowards like you do so because they are so terrified of voicing an opinion that might upset others and we couldn’t have that could we?

"terrified of voicing an opinion that might upset others"?!?  Just from our exchanges here, you know that's an OUTRIGHT LIE.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

I am pretty sure that Christian fundamentalism and human gullibility is a few thousand years older than Putin. I doubt @RickeyD had significantly different views before year 2016, than he does now.


@Plaffelvohfen

I know Putin's game well enough. What one wants, and what one actually can accomplish, are two different things though. Putin has not even managed to take down such weak and corrupt countries as Latvia or Ukraine, and you think he can sow chaos in the US? Come on.

Like I said, I do not feel any difference between life here 5 years ago and nowadays. Life is surprisingly happy and stable, when you do not spend a lot of time and emotional energy watching political TV channels and, instead, focus on what actually matters, such as your career goals, your relationships, hobbies, etc. I do not feel any chaos. It is different in the political space, but politics has always been a messy business, so I fail to see what is so special about the current situation.

As for divisiveness, it is actually a good thing. Only when there are multiple philosophies at war in a society, a rapid cultural progress becomes possible. When everything is stable and everyone follows the same doctrine, then the culture stagnates. It is a comfortable life, but it is not a fulfilling or promising one.

Some people seem to be unhappy when the society is polarised, but I actually cannot see anything more boring than living in a monolithic society. America has always been about individual self-expression and contrarianism, and it is important to not let political correctness wash out this essential aspect of its culture.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

.*****No the dictionary is and thats what those words have always meant.


What words in particular please list them?

****I described what a wage gap is and asked what your definition is.  I cant be anymore clear.  Meanwhile you wont give an inkling to what you think it is.

No you described what you think a wage gap is , now you're playing your usual game of asking me the same question I've answered over 100 times in the past so run along to our last debate and fill your boots 

****Forced...by putting them in jail or fining them...is that good enough for you. 

Terrible isnt it that you're prevented from verbally attacking others for being different , give me an example of someone put in jail and forced by society into jail for such?

****Somehow using a wrong pronoun should get you this


Give examples of people jailed for this 

*****but calling people racist, sexist, homophobic, jerks is totally fine.  How bout just have free speech.

Yeah strange that you're not entitled to call a black a "nigger " anymore ...   Hey maybe Trump will pass a new law that allows good ole boys like you a legal right to do so 

******I said those were probably your views to signify that i was assuming i didnt declare it.  But i was right anyway.

You got me good there buddy , yes I'm all for human rights I don't agree that bigots like you have the "right" to verbally attack another over their sexuality, clinic colour or reproductive rights but then again your type segregated blacks up to the 60's as it was your "right" .......The land of the free indeed 

Dee

@CYDdharta

******just  from our exchanges here, you know that's an OUTRIGHT LIE.


Wow! In caps you must be pissed.

Ok buddy lets hear your criticisms of Trump or are you still too terrified to voice them?

Plaffelvohfen

@MayCaesar

You bring up good points, tension, different points of view and desires (divisiveness is a bad choice of words imo), these can be beneficial driving forces but, this is only true in a well informed society... They cannot be so in any misinformed societies whose members cannot even agree on the basic truths of a shared reality... Any society has to share a core of factual truths about reality, something that unites them existentially or it's not a society... Destroy this notion of Truth and Reality enough to create individuals like RickeyD and well, you should get it...

MayCaesar

@Plaffelvohfen

I disagree with such a pessimistic notion. Truth is ultimately found through debate, and whether the society is well informed or not, without debate nothing is going to improve. And the more daring arguments people make, the more they are forced to think. Americans traditionally have questioned everything, and this is what made the country into the world's unquestionable leader. The more people argue over fundamentals, the more solid the conclusion of these arguments will be.

I do not think there are well informed and poor informed societies either. Perhaps I am setting a very high standard for humanity, but wherever I visited, most people (including myself) were fairly unsophisticated individuals, mostly going with the flow, and I would not consider them overly informed. The real difference is whether people are encouraged to freely debate issues, or are constrained to some mainstream views deviating from which is dangerous. The US in this regard is arguably the freest-thinking country in the world (together with the UK, perhaps), and the debates people sometimes have here are very thought-provoking.

Plaffelvohfen

@MayCaesar

 Truth is ultimately found through debate

Dubious... Even more so when either one of the debater doesn't recognize what is factually true or not, or even care about truth and reality altogether... 

What Truths have you found on Debate Island recently? No, Truth is found through inquiry, not debate...

You maybe more of an idealist than me or I'm more of a realist than you, I guess my old age shows through my pessimism...

MayCaesar

@Plaffelvohfen

Apologies if my post was not very clear, but I did not mean to say that debate always results in finding the truth. It is not a sufficient, but merely a necessary condition: truth can only be found through questioning and debate, and while questioning and debating something is not guaranteed to result in establishing the truth, not questioning or debating is guaranteed to never establish the truth.

Perhaps "debate" was not a proper term, and "inquiry" is a better one. But debates and inquiries are strongly related, and one often leads to the other.

I cannot pinpoint anything in particular that I learned from Debate Island. Rather, many discussions here challenged me intellectually and led me to further intellectual search, that ultimately resulted in improvement of my understanding of the world. It is a continuous process, and I am always learning, every second; the day I have learned everything I need is the day I die.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****  The real difference is whether people are encouraged to freely debate issues

I think most Europeans in my experience freely debate issues and it’s openly encouraged 

,***** or are constrained to some mainstream views deviating from which is dangerous. 

In the U S most everyone is either  a Republican or Democrat it seems and rarely deviate from the party line , I’ve yet to come across a nation like the U S that seem to be constantly at war with each other and politics seem to define what one is and stands for, tell me you’re a Republican and I more or less know everything of importance about you and vice verse  

*****The US in this regard is arguably the freest-thinking country in the world (together with the UK, perhaps), and the debates people sometimes have here are very thought-provoking.

How do you make out it’s the most “freest-thinking” when Republicans who are a sizable proportion of Americans can not see one single flaw in their president in fact he’s seen as perfect American patriot by these “free -thinkers” .

Debates can be thought provoking indeed on this we agree but if one cannot even allow the thought that their president is not what he seems how can anything of worth be achieved?

Yesterday when I criticized Trump one of the first counters was a suggestion that I was a fan of Clinton’s when I claimed I had no time for him either it must have shocked my opponent as he assumed if one does not like Trump one must be in the Clinton camp , this is the opposite of free thinking and lamentably is typical when debating a fair amount of Americans who see everything through Republican or Democrat glasses. 

MayCaesar

@Dee

In my experience, mainland Europeans are generally more similar to the Japanese in this regard, than to Americans or the British: it is hard to discuss sensitive issues with them, because they always hurry up to agree to disagree or, at least, voice a very-very mild and careful disagreement.
In the US, you usually can discuss issues very openly, and people will not let their sensitivities go in the way of an honest discussion. You also can discuss very controversial issues: telling someone that you like Hitler as an experiment, for example, is likely to lead to some curiosity, rather than immediate resentment and ostracizion.

I would not use the Internet to gauge social trends in various countries. The Internet has the nature of giving a small vocal minority a platform, and that vocal minority does not consist exclusively of outstanding individuals. You see a lot of dogmatism around here, because people rarely feel that they are interacting with another respectable human being and, instead, argue more with themselves than with others, which leads to a lot of emotions and misplaced aggression.

It is also helpful to do some self-reflection, before accusing others of anything. Nothing against you, but I have noticed from your posts that you are often extremely aggressive towards those who disagree with your stance on some sensitive issues. You accuse people of seeing Trump in a very monochromatic light, but are you sure you are not seeing him in monochromatic light as well, just of the opposite side of the color spectrum?

There is a lot of great debates happening in the US, especially at the right tail of the, let's say, intellectual curve. One needs to filter out the noise and focus on the meaningful discussions, and there is plenty of them. And while every country features amazing debates and discussions, I have never been as intellectually challenged by debates from other countries I have seen, as by those taking place in the US and the UK (I also, I suppose, should add Canada to the mix, although I see at as more of the extension of the US debates in this regard). These two countries are truly cultural meccas of the modern world.
Japan has its own rich culture of public debates, but they tend to focus on fairly abstract things, not easily applicable to the real world. You go to Japan to argue about the meaning of life, and you go to the US/Canada/UK to argue about how to live life.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****

In my experience, mainland Europeans are generally more similar to the Japanese in this regard, than to Americans or the British: it is hard to discuss sensitive issues with them, because they always hurry up to agree to disagree or, at least, voice a very-very mild and careful disagreement.
In the US, you usually can discuss issues very openly, and people will not let their sensitivities go in the way of an honest discussion. You also can discuss very controversial issues: telling someone that you like Hitler as an experiment, for example, is likely to lead to some curiosity, rather than immediate resentment and ostracizion.****

Interesting I’ve debated with different people from different countries over the years and I find most reasonable people and the opposite in all societies, I was just curious about your comment regards free thinking and how American society was the most free this way

****I would not use the Internet to gauge social trends in various countries. The Internet has the nature of giving a small vocal minority a platform, and that vocal minority does not consist exclusively of outstanding individuals. You see a lot of dogmatism around here, because people rarely feel that they are interacting with another respectable human being and, instead, argue more with themselves than with others, which leads to a lot of emotions and misplaced aggression.

Thats very true 

****It is also helpful to do some self-reflection, before accusing others of anything. Nothing against you, but I have noticed from your posts that you are often extremely aggressive towards those who disagree with your stance on some sensitive issues. 

I take your point May , I stated from my very first post on C D that I would engage with others fairly and openly but if one threw a verbal punch one would get one back , from day one on here I’ve been called a Commie because I’m anti gun , evil for supporting a woman’s right to choice and immoral for being an atheist and sadly that’s been from Americans

Debating on here can be very frustrating and I often think face to face it would run a lot smoother and differences might be accepted and worked around 

*****You accuse people of seeing Trump in a very monochromatic light, but are you sure you are not seeing him in monochromatic light as well, just of the opposite side of the color spectrum?

Fair point , am I to believe that every negative story about Trump is unfair? Before he was president he had issues regards racism , sexism and bullying were they all lies? What’s one to believe?

When Trump was made President I did say online I felt that the guy faults and all should be given a fair shot and I believed that but to deny the obvious wrongdoing of the man is disengenous , I liked Clinton when he made president but could not support him either as likewise he smeared the highest office in the land surely this is the correct path to take?

*****There is a lot of great debates happening in the US, especially at the right tail of the, let's say, intellectual curve. One needs to filter out the noise and focus on the meaningful discussions, and there is plenty of them. And while every country features amazing debates and discussions, I have never been as intellectually challenged by debates from other countries I have seen, as by those taking place in the US and the UK (I also, I suppose, should add Canada to the mix, although I see at as more of the extension of the US debates in this regard). These two countries are truly cultural meccas of the modern world.

Thats fair enough and it’s your view but believe it or not intellectually challenging debate can be found in most European countries. Cultural Mecca can be applied to several Europeans countries and others outside Europe the original being the centre of the Islamic world , but in fairness I would say the same of my country 

*****Japan has its own rich culture of public debates, but they tend to focus on fairly abstract things, not easily applicable to the real world. You go to Japan to argue about the meaning of life, and you go to the US/Canada/UK to argue about how to live life. 

Both good topics to debate 

MayCaesar

@Dee

Of course, any society has a wide spectrum of people in most regards. It has just been my experience that Americans generally are much more distrusting of any sort of authority, political or otherwise, and tend to question the most obvious things more often than others. Anglo-Saxon societies traditionally have been at the forefront of intellectual thought throughout the last few centuries, and Americans in particular in addition to that have a bumpy history, starting with a spectacular independence movement based on ideals that were fairly unprecedented at the time.
It obviously does not apply to all people, or even probably to a majority of people - but it does show at the extremes. Even something as entertainment-focused as the movie industry in the US regularly produces intellectually provoking pieces full of contrarian stances, questioning of existing structures, witty philosophical dialogues... I love getting familiar with cinematography from all over the world, and from my experience the US, the UK, Japanese, Korean and, slightly behind, German and French movie industries are far ahead of the rest of the world. Subjective opinion, of course.

Regarding throwing punches, I find that it is much better to always stay cool, no matter what is said. Usually, when you do not overreact and counter people's aggression with a calm and reasonable response, they, in turn, cool down. And when they do not, then it may be a sign that it is time to walk away. Responding to a punch with a punch may be tempting, but in debates it does not really lead anywhere.
But my point was really that a productive debate requires, first and foremost, one's humility and refusal to take a dogmatic stance. One shoots themselves in the foot by assuming a certain position as unquestionable and treating their opponent as a priori wrong. Granted, some positions are too dubious to be worth seriously considering - but one needs to be careful with the assumption that they know the truth in general.

Something I learned long ago the hard way is that one should never compare themselves to others in qualitative terms, as in "better" or "worse". Whenever you think yourself inherently better in some way than someone else, you lose the opportunity to learn from them and to consider new ideas, and your mind is cemented in its own echo-chamber.
This is why I am particularly sensitive to comments such as "group X is deluded". The groups that seem the most deluded are the ones one stands to learn the most from, as those are the groups one understands the least. You would be surprised at the insights you can gain from those you see as defending the indefensible, once you gain some trust from them and get to talk in detail about the sources of their beliefs.

Dee

@MayCaesar

Thank you for that piece and it’s fair commentary and long may it continue , incidentally regarding movies I love watching American movies of the old school as in Twelve angry  men and my favorite movie of all time is the wonderful The  Treasure of the Sierra Madre . Another favourite French movie is Jean de Florette and the follow up Manon de Sources and then the wonderful Spanish movie Pans Labyrinth I could go on and on so much to watch from around the globe.

Happy Christmas 

TKDB

https://amp-washingtontimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/20/noah-feldman-democrat-impeachment-witness-says-tru/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15769360336769&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/20/noah-feldman-democrat-impeachment-witness-says-tru/

"Democrat witness says Trump not impeached until articles sent to Senate"

By Andrew Blake - The Washington Times - Friday, December 20, 2019

"Noah R. Feldman, a witness called by Democrats in the impeachment inquiry into President Trump, cautioned Thursday against the House of Representatives not sending its findings to the Senate."

"Reacting to the House not having formally notified the Senate of the two articles of impeachment passed this week, the constitutional scholar said that could be a “serious problem” if the articles remain in limbo."

“Impeachment as contemplated by the Constitution does not consist merely of the vote by the House, but of the process of sending the articles to the Senate for trial,” Mr. Feldman wrote in an editorial. “Both parts are necessary to make an impeachment under the Constitution: The House must actually send the articles and send managers to the Senate to prosecute the impeachment. And the Senate must actually hold a trial.” 

So the Trump Impeachment Liberals, put on their "House Show," in regards to the Impeachment, but for the Impeachment to be legally recognized, the entirety of an Impeachment must be fully completed.

So that is a (Stain,) on the Liberal Trump Impeachment machine, for their bias and inadequate efforts.

They enjoy the notoriety, but the rest of the non Liberal voters, are getting an education, on how the Liberal notoriety machine works as well. 

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar No point in arguing over that when we can just ask him.

I'm pretty sure he has blocked me, so just ask him if he voted for Trump when he ran for office in any year before 2016.

Based on everything I know about psyops, what google is doing by sometimes putting left learning news closer to the top than right wing news, is nowhere near as potent a persuasion tool as what Russia was doing deliberately, and this had a huge payoff for Trump in 2016.

If you watch political videos and read articles from before 2014 you will notice that even when they specifically bring up Trump as president it has little or no support. Therefore we can conclude that it was deliberate action that got him into the white house, meaning we can rule it out as a coincidence because that is very unlikely.

Just as a little crash-course in social engineering tactics, the method typically employed takes the form of

[ something interlocutor values ] + [ object of attack ] + [ claim of violation ] 

So for example, if you are trying to pull Christians away from Trump:

" #AntichristTrump is a deceiver who desires to make good Christians put him ahead of our Lord and Savior"

This is one of about 800 of the actual messages I used when I experimented with social engineering through social media back in August. You can see all the elements here also present in the ads produced by Russia. It is much, much more potent than subtle hinting by google ever could be, both by the numbers from the study claiming that Google is doing so as compared to the Intelligence reports by the US government, and in theory.

MichaelElpers

@Dee. My type segregate a blacks into thr 60s?  I wasnt born until the 90s.  

Personality: the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

Gender always meant masculine or feminine until social constructionists and feminists got there hands on it.

Again im not saying we should treat people with disrespect but allowing an infinite number of genders make the term practically meaningless and makes it much more similar to personality.  Im not doubting there are more masculine or feminine people of each sex but it doesnt have to be identified on a spectrum...(im 86.4% masculine and 13.4% feminine in regards to social constructs...dumb).

According to definitions gender pay gap it is tge difference in pay between two sexes or races.

There are 2 kinds nonadjusted and adjusted.  Non adjusted just takes into account overall pay while adjusted takes into account hours worked, occupation, experience, ect.  I am perfectly happy being the one who presents the adjusted version as it gathers i  the most factors and presents the more logical data set.  Nonadjusted is the dumb downed 1st graders edition of looking at it.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

Trump became President because Hillary Clinton interfered with Bernie Sanders behind the scenes, (because from what I've read and heard in many conversations, Hillary felt like the Presidency was hers by default, or that it was owed to her?
Obama was the President for two terms, and now it was her turn?)

So wasn't it up to the Voters, to make that decision, and not her? 

And those 30,000 missing emails? 
And then Comey, during his presentation, (11 days before the 2016 Election Cycle  took place,) gave Hillary Clinton a Public Pass for her indiscretions that were saturating the news cycles at that time.

The non Liberal voters, voted for Trump, because they had had enough of the Obama Policies, as well as having their fill of the "Clinton" name overall.

So instead of Hillary getting to be the next President, and her continuing onward with the Obama Policies, which would in a sense, equate to another 4 years of the Obama, technically being in the Oval Office still, via Hillary Clinton being President, and the rest of the non Liberal voters, voted a resounding "No," to that Political anomaly.

Trump became President, because the rest of the non Liberal voters, voted to take a chance on Trump, because they had moved on from the Clinton, and Obama notoriety name games, and I guess, were open to giving a non Politician a chance at doing something different for the country. 

John_C_87

Over all I do not believe that the idea of impeachment is made by fool's, where the clarity is questionable, all the way around this event as it lacks united state, or constitution. It is strictly a democratic action, conditional using ideas of law as justice and not basic principle as separation. The general understanding is it is an instructional process to attempt to teach people that the vote is what makes male person's President of a United State to be presented before American Constitution for states of the union address.

As no discrimination takes place, even a person who is simply exsecitive officer can in fact make, or attempt to make a state of the union address...

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

******just  from our exchanges here, you know that's an OUTRIGHT LIE.


Wow! In caps you must be pissed.

Ok buddy lets hear your criticisms of Trump or are you still too terrified to voice them?

Liars do tend to piss me off.

Pres. Trump should be pushing harder to get the border wall done and he should be getting rid of more useless government agencies, OSHA, EPA, Department of Education, etc.

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

All you did was stereotype me, according to your individualized opinion and perception.

And no, I didn't ask for your stereotyping, so could you please get back on topic? 

Again, I am not the theme of the forum, but the below is:

The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

"No, just the arrogant morons like yourself. Some of the greatest people I've met are from the United States. You're nowhere near the likes of those decent, honest and informed guys. I could also ask you about being biased against the UK but I am not going to sink that low. I'm just reminding you that the money you say is out of your pocket (and I doubt you even have done a hard day's work in your life) is not yours. Basically, two can play that game, sir.

What's more, is it's gotta kinda suck ain't it to borrow money from a communist country (now kind of a capitalist country as well). Should we get another butthurt form for you to fill out again?

Now, I wasn't going to say this but since you're pushing it:

The USA is a country with more than three hundred million people and so will have more educated and intelligent people than the UK. But by contrast because of this number, they will also have far more down south redneck retards like yourself than what the UK does. And it's the work of the former that are responsible for more aid to other countries than what you could ever dream of and for that I am grateful.

You, sir, are the kind of Yank that thinks the USA won the Vietnam war, you're the one that thinks you're untouchable, you're the one that thinks the USA won the Second World War all by themselves, you're the yank that I have no time for! @TKDB

Sorry, but you asked for that."

And all you did was stereotype me and other people and their countries. I was just returning the favor. If you want us to stay on topic then the solution is for you to also stay on topic in the first place.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Being off topic:

You stereotype yourself through your very own opinion, and perception.

You stereotype yourself by how you hound, and harass various forum participants, with your own opinion, and perception.

I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me. 

On topic.

Trump has been getting bombarded by Liberal opinions, and perceptions, long before he became POTUS.

Hillary Clinton, hounded and harassed the 2016 Election Process, with her treatment of Bernie Sanders, and with her 30,000 missing emails.

And then the below Liberals stereotyped themselves, with their Trump Impeachment failure, because they've apparently balked at completing the Impeachment process, because they stopped the process, before it could be completed?

Nancy Pelosi.

Chuck Schumer.

Adam Schiff.

Jerry Nadler.

Along with the rest of their self stereotyping Liberal cohorts.

"And all you did was stereotype me and other people and their countries. I was just returning the favor. If you want us to stay on topic then the solution is for you to also stay on topic in the first place."

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Being off topic:

You stereotype yourself through your very own opinion, and perception.

You stereotype yourself by how you hound, and harass various forum participants, with your own opinion, and perception.

I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me. 

Being off topic:

You stereotype yourself through your very own opinion, and perception.

You stereotype yourself by how you hound, and harass various forum participants, with your own opinion, and perception.

I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me.

Basically @TKDB I or anyone else can say the same thing to you here that you've just said too as I or you could say to any other person on the planet. completely irrelevant though.

On topic.

Trump has been getting bombarded by Liberal opinions, and perceptions, long before he became POTUS.

Hillary Clinton, hounded and harassed the 2016 Election Process, with her treatment of Bernie Sanders, and with her 30,000 missing emails.

And then the below Liberals stereotyped themselves, with their Trump Impeachment failure, because they've apparently balked at completing the Impeachment process, because they stopped the process, before it could be completed?

Nancy Pelosi.

Chuck Schumer.

Adam Schiff.

Jerry Nadler.

Along with the rest of their self stereotyping Liberal cohorts.

I see Hillary Clinton as some kind of Far leftist extremist as a liberal. Much like the same with Jeremy Corbyn in the UK although I think Corbyn is worse.

Now from my understanding is that while almost all liberals are actually liberal, some are actually far-leftists as I already pointed out in a previous post. Republican Ben Shapiro also has many videos where he clearly explains the difference between leftism and liberalism, and I highly recommend watching.

Any, my own view of Trump is that he like every other president in history has done some good things as well as some bad things. They are after all only fallible human beings and with a huge responsibility. And this is what being an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me is all about.

TKDB

My words:
(I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me.)


From you, in regards to me:

"And this is what (being an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me) is all about."


@ZeusAres42

, you're a chronic copy cat, by regurgitating what others say, to re-use their own word's to do your internet arguing for yourself.


Being off topic:

You stereotype yourself through your very own opinion, and perception.

You stereotype yourself by how you hound, and harass various forum participants, with your own opinion, and perception.

I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me.

Basically @TKDB I or anyone else can say the same thing to you here that you've just said too as I or you could say to any other person on the planet. completely irrelevant though. 

, you waste people's time, because that's the only way you know to Argue.

Now re-use my words again @ZeusAres42



@TKDB

, you waste people's time, because that's the only way you how to Argue.

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

, you're a chronic copy cat, by regurgitating what others say, to re-use their own word's to do your internet arguing for yourself.


Being off topic:

You stereotype yourself through your very own opinion, and perception.

You stereotype yourself by how you hound, and harass various forum participants, with your own opinion, and perception.

I'm an equal and fair conversationalist, regardless of how you express yourself in regards to me.

Basically @TKDB I or anyone else can say the same thing to you here that you've just said too as I or you could say to any other person on the planet. completely irrelevant though. 

, you waste people's time, because that's the only way you know to Argue.

Now re-use my words again @ZeusAres42


@TKDB

, you waste people's time, because that's the only way you how to Argue.

TKDB

https://www-foxnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.foxnews.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-obama-would-have-been-impeached-under-standards-democrats-are-applying-to-trump.amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15769854119412&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/jason-chaffetz-obama-would-have-been-impeached-under-standards-democrats-are-applying-to-trump 

"Jason Chaffetz: Obama would have been impeached under standards Democrats are applying to Trump"

"President Barack Obama would have been impeached if the standards House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her fellow Democrats are applying to President Trump today had been evenly applied before 2017.

Did Obama withhold documents? Daily. Did he hold back witnesses? Regularly. Did he unnecessarily delay congressional inquiries? Yes.

Did Obama encourage foreign governments to help him politically? Absolutely. Did his vice president – Joe Biden – engage in manipulation of a foreign prosecutor? Sure did.

Did a Republican-controlled House ever seriously consider impeaching President Obama?  Of course not. It would have been absurd – just as absurd as the effort now underway by the Democratic majority in today’s House to impeach Trump."

"The natural tensions found between the legislative and executive branches of government when two different parties share power is not a new phenomenon. The United States has lived through these political differences for more than 200 years.

Yet this election cycle is different. The Democrats have been hyperventilating about Trump’s mere presence since he descended the escalator at Trump Tower to announce his candidacy.

The establishment doesn’t like Trump and the media want to get him out of Washington. But the economy is doing great, foreign policy is succeeding, and the prospect of Trump winning a second term is high.

The Democrats have been operating with the end in mind. Since Day One of Trump’s presidency, the resistance wing of the Democratic Party has been plotting to impeach him.

For three years the Democrats have been seeking evidence and hoping to find facts to support their conclusion that Trump should be impeached. Thus far they have failed. Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report was a bust in their minds – but undeterred, they still seek to impeach, no matter the evidence or lack thereof.

On. January 20, 2017 The Washington Post published a story headlined “The Campaign to Impeach President Trump Has Begun.” This was the first day of the Trump presidency – but his opponents already wanted him out office.

“The resistance” wanted to grab back the power and didn’t want to wait four or eight years. The clock is ticking and they must move now or they will run out of time.

Impeachment has always been the goal for the Democrats. They knew what they were going to do – if only they could find some information so egregious they could convince others to join them. "

"By contrast, when I was a Republican in the House of Representatives when President Obama was in office we sought accountability and followed the facts, but never seriously suggested impeaching the president.

There was plenty of scandal in the Obama-Biden administration.

We investigated Fast & Furious, the IRS scandal, Benghazi, Hillary Clinton’s emails, the secretive Iran payment, Obama’s Justice Department spying on reporters, Obama’s intervention in Libya, and on and on."

"And that was all before the revelations uncovered by the Justice Department inspector general resulting in referrals for prosecution or disciplinary action against the FBI director, deputy director and assistant director.

The investigations of the Obama-Biden administration were serious, involving cases where people were killed and major malfeasance was being perpetrated.

Based on the loose, make-it-up-as-we-go secretive “impeachment” proceedings by Speaker Pelosi, she should have sought to impeach President Obama. He would have never had a chance. "

There are some articles going back to 2014, in regards to President Obama, and if he could be Impeached for certain things?

And the last paragraph of the article sums of the Impeachment conversation very well.

"Based on the loose, make-it-up-as-we-go secretive “impeachment” proceedings by Speaker Pelosi, she should have sought to impeach President Obama. He would have never had a chance."

Dee

********Liars do tend to piss me off

Maybe you should stop pissing yourself off of you feel so strongly about it?

******. Trump should be pushing harder to get the border wall done and he should be getting rid of more useless government agencies, OSHA, EPA, Department of Education, etc.


There you go in your own words you've proven the truth of my statement as in you're terrified to even offer one criticism of Trump all because adopting shepple mentality is so important to you , best to safe and agree with the herd in case they don't like you anymore

CYDdharta

Dee said:

********Liars do tend to piss me off

Maybe you should stop pissing yourself off of you feel so strongly about it?

******. Trump should be pushing harder to get the border wall done and he should be getting rid of more useless government agencies, OSHA, EPA, Department of Education, etc.


There you go in your own words you've proven the truth of my statement as in you're terrified to even offer one criticism of Trump all because adopting shepple mentality is so important to you , best to safe and agree with the herd in case they don't like you anymore

So criticizing someone proves I'm afraid to criticize them?!?  You really need to cut back on the amount of crack you're smoking.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****  My type segregate a blacks into thr 60s?  I wasnt born until the 90s.  

Type as in your parents I don’t condemn you as you know no better 

*****Personality: the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character.

Yes 

*****Gender always meant masculine or feminine until social constructionists and feminists got there hands on it.

Again im not saying we should treat people with disrespect but allowing an infinite number of genders make the term practically meaningless and makes it much more similar to personality.  Im not doubting there are more masculine or feminine people of each sex but it doesnt have to be identified on a spectrum...(im 86.4% masculine and 13.4% feminine in regards to social constructs...dumb).****

But how does it bother you if people identify and feel a certain way?

*****According to definitions gender pay gap it is tge difference in pay between two sexes or races.

Yes 

*****There are 2 kinds nonadjusted and adjusted.  Non adjusted just takes into account overall pay while adjusted takes into account hours worked, occupation, experience, ect.  I am perfectly happy being the one who presents the adjusted version as it gathers i  the most factors and presents the more logical data set.  Nonadjusted is the dumb downed 1st graders edition of looking at it.


As usual in your world if you say something doesn’t exist well that’s it what a convenient way of dismissing reality you have,a gender wage gap is recognised in your country by experts in the field get over it


Maybe you need to address the esteemed Pew research centre and point out the various flaws the academics have made in recognizing the gender pay gap and then get onto the government and point out their errors while you’re at it , I’m sure they will be eternally grateful 

MichaelElpers

@Dee

1. I dont know where you get from what ive ever said that i want to segregate blacks or am racist in anyway...please quote. I take racist as a big charge and im sick of people accusing others without proof.  Its crap and it makes the word less meaningful.

2. I dont care how they identify or feel.  I care that we change the meaning of words to make them feel better and i care that they try to make laws limiting free speech because there feelings got hurt.  I care that they make bathrooms gender neutral causing girls to have to undress in a locker room with men.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianpost.com/amp/school-district-wont-change-transgender-policy-girl-undress-boys-locker-room.html

3. Well if you post the link from pew i will tell you.  But in the other links you posted it was a nonadjusted wage gap.  Look at the research, and you will see that the 70 cents to the dollar only took in yearly median wage, not any other factors

Dee

@MichaelElpers


****

1. I dont know where you get from what ive ever said that i want to segregate blacks or am racist in anyway...please quote. I take racist as a big charge and im sick of people accusing others without proof.  Its crap and it makes the word less meaningful.


You take it as a big charge really? Yet you’ve no problem labeling me without proof when you learn to engage with respect you get it back is this hard to comprehend for you?

****2. I dont care how they identify or feel.  

Yes , only your felling are Important 

*****I care that we change the meaning of words to make them feel better and i care that they try to make laws limiting free speech because there feelings got hurt.  I care that they make bathrooms gender neutral causing girls to have to undress in a locker room with men.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianpost.com/amp/school-district-wont-change-transgender-policy-girl-undress-boys-locker-room.html

Ok so this is widespread in the US girls are actually made strip off in front of men? Also your source is The Christian post lat time it was The Epoch Times you’re yet another religious nut 


***** Well if you post the link from pew i will tell you.  But in the other links you posted it was a nonadjusted wage gap.

If pew call it gender wage gap they never mention non -adjusted wage gap which wouldn’t actually be a wage gap would it?

So tell me are Pew and your government making it up?

 ***** Look at the research, and you will see that the 70 cents to the dollar only took in yearly median wage, not any other factors

Is there a gender wage gap or not? Is there a difference in male / female wage averages yes or no?

Dee

@CYDdharta


***** So criticizing someone proves I'm afraid to criticize them?!? 

Waiting ....post up your criticisms of Trump? You see if you did that it would prove you’re not terrified so prove me wrong? 

 *****You really need to cut back on the amount of crack you're smoking.

Well if I’m smoking crack it’s keeping your dad employed isn’t it?

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta


***** So criticizing someone proves I'm afraid to criticize them?!? 

Waiting ....post up your criticisms of Trump? You see if you did that it would prove you’re not terrified so prove me wrong? 

Once again, for the obviously still intoxicated,

Pres. Trump should be pushing harder to get the border wall done and he should be getting rid of more useless government agencies, OSHA, EPA, Department of Education, etc.

 *****You really need to cut back on the amount of crack you're smoking.

Well if I’m smoking crack it’s keeping your dad employed isn’t it?

Why, are you looking for another supplier?  Yours can't handle your monumental demand?  You'll have to look elsewhere, my dad died 2 years ago.  Your mom should be able to hook you up.

MichaelElpers

@Dee.  Ive never labeled you a racist.

When i said i dont care how they identify i didnt mean i dont care about them, i meant it is there business and think they have every right to do so.

There is a median wage gap, but there is no wage difference between men and women working the same job and hours.

Pew never mentions the other factors when you have a source you can look into how they conducted their research. As far as my source again it is just documenting what happened, and it was a true story.  There was high school swimming girl who was interviewed in the news crying because she has to get completely undressed in the same lockerroom as the boys.

Dee

@CYDdharta

***** Why, are you looking for another supplier?  

How did you know?

*****Yours can't handle your monumental demand?  

You got me there 

****You'll have to look elsewhere, my dad died 2 years ago.  

That’s what you get when you dip into your own supply 

*****Your mom should be able to hook you up. 

Why is your mum not dealing anymore? I always got “extras “ off her lets just say “a very obliging woman “ if you know what I mean