The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

Dee

@CYDdharta

****** I know I've had to tell you to seek professional help before, you obviously haven't done it.  You really should

Interesting this from a guy who thinks I need to explain that being black doesn’t make one interior , run along to your KKK Christmas dinner would hate to hold you up  

MichaelElpers

@Dee. We werent saying that we need an explaination for why racism is wrong, 

What i was saying is that you cant just say someone is wrong or call them dumb and expect to change anyones mind...if that is all you can do its more likely than not that you are actually the one that is wrong...
You seem to do this quite often.

MichaelElpers

@Dee. We werent saying that we need an explaination for why racism is wrong, 

What i was saying is that you cant just say someone is wrong or call them dumb and expect to change anyones mind...if that is all you can do its more likely than not that you are actually the one that is wrong...
You seem to do this quite often.

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

****** I know I've had to tell you to seek professional help before, you obviously haven't done it.  You really should

Interesting this from a guy who thinks I need to explain that being black doesn’t make one interior , run along to your KKK Christmas dinner would hate to hold you up  

Dee

@MichaelElpers


*******We werent saying that we need an explaination for why racism is wrong,


But that's exactly what you stated in your analogy regarding explanations , but as usual you have to lie your way out 

******What i was saying is that you cant just say someone is wrong or call them dumb and expect to change anyones mind...


Really? Ok I think it's wrong and dumb to judge people on skin colour , I know I cannot change your mind or @CYdharta but I don't care whether I do do

See that I've proved you wrong yet again 

******if that is all you can do its more likely than not that you are actually the one that is wrong...

You mean like posting articles saying there's a gender wage gap but by you saying there's not that means there's not?

*******You seem to do this quite often.

Says the guy who thinks saying a fact is not a fact because he says so somehow makes him right ? It doesn't it makes you look foolish 

MichaelElpers

@Dee If you want a debate on the wage gap post it up and get the flood of people saying that tour wrong.  Its not my fault you want to see discrimination at every turn and youd rather use nonadjusted stats than adjusted like a elementary student.  Unlike you i actually read the articles and explained what they said with rational in my own words. And how others have concluded median wage is not a good determinant for showing sex discrimination.

Also your lying that i ever said that i needed an explanation regarding why race is wrong..."You said i shouldnt have to explain to KKK members why racism is wrong.  My response is that if you really want to change their mind and fight racism, you do.

Its obvious that you dont have clear arguments which is why you keep having to lie that me and cydharta are racists.  You know that wasnt the underlying point, but you keep going back to it.  If all you do is call people names, misrepresent arguments, and dont think you need explanations for your arguments there is no point talking to you.

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Yeah thats what i mean, post a debate and try to defend it.

MichaelElpers

@Dee My defense was not it was wrong because i say so, my defense is that i actaully read the graphs and looked at what they displayed.

Again my defense is that Pew wage gap only views it through a lens of median wage.  A gap that Pee even says nearly completely closes when simarly comparing hours worked, occupation and experience.

Men then dominate higher earning occupations while women lower earning...none of these things are my opinion it is fact.

The one thing that contributes that to women earning less late in careers is maternity leave.  Im not sure how to solve this.  If the woman is valuable to the company it costs the company money for that employee to be away.

My claim is not that there is no difference in median pay between men and women, it is that the difference can be explained by occupational choice, hours worked, experience, ect. These factors have been confirmed not only in your sources but mine as well.  I like to see your source that says and proves it is a result of gender discrimination.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****My defense was not it was wrong because i say so, my defense is that i actaully read the graphs and looked at what they displayed.

They displayed a clear gender wage gap you still deny such 

*****Again my defense is that Pew wage gap only views it through a lens of median wage.  

Median is average , so what’s your point?

*****A gap that Pee even says nearly completely closes when simarly comparing hours worked, occupation and experience.

Nonsense , The gender pay gap is the gap between what men and women are paid. Most commonly, it refers to the median annual pay of all women who work full time and year-round, compared to the pay of a similar cohort of men. Other estimates of the gender pay gap are based on weekly or hourly earnings, or are specific to a particular group of women.

No matter how you analyze it, the gender pay gap is real, persistent, and harmful to women’s economic security.

****Men then dominate higher earning occupations while women lower earning...none of these things are my opinion it is fact.

Your denial of a gender wage gap is childish and typical , it’s recognized by your own governmental you deny this? 

****The one thing that contributes that to women earning less late in careers is maternity leave.  Im not sure how to solve this.  If the woman is valuable to the company it costs the company money for that employee to be away.

Wow that’s it maternity leave? What a shocker bet you’re against it?

****My claim is not that there is no difference in median pay between men and women, it is that the difference can be explained by occupational choice, hours worked, experience, ect. 

Not what the experts are saying , sure what would they know?

*****These factors have been confirmed not only in your sources but mine as well.  I like to see your source that says and proves it is a result of gender discrimination.

But that’s exactly what they state , you’re like an Evolution denier as you’re back to your favorite defence everyone is wrong cause you say so and that’s that .....so there

Factfinder

Pelosi and the dems didn't care about Biden bragging about his quid pro quo demand on the Ukraine, no they care only about Trumps imagined quid pro quo because he called for an investigation of Biden and HIS corruption he boasted so openly about. The people see this impeachment for what it is and that's why the liberals will be left crying again in 2020 because of their failure to think for themselves.

MayCaesar

@Dee

The problem with the "gender gap" is that it is an aggregate statistics, having nothing to do with specific circumstances. Aggregate statistics can be very deceiving, as they fail to account to systematic differences having nothing to do with the discussed effect.

The US government, indeed, recognises that there is a gap. What it never states, however, is that this gap is a result of discrimination. In fact, every study I saw has found that discrimination does not contribute to this significantly, if at all. 

There are many effects at play that contribute to it, but cannot be reasonably accounted for. One is the fact that women much more often take a few years off to take care of children than men, which obviously puts them at a disadvantage. Another is that women, on average, are a bit less competitive than men, and that is why you see fewer women at the top than men, and the top contributes to the average statistics significantly, for obvious reasons. Another still is that men and women tend to make slightly different career choices on average, and it so happens that the careers preferred by men tend to be higher-paid.

It all comes down to the individual choice, as far as we know. Nothing prevents a woman from not taking maternity leave and from pursuing high-paid careers, and such women tend to perform about the same as men taking on similar career routes.

It is by no means harmful to the society, or to the women, for that matter. Women consciously make these choices, because many of them see the reward of them as more valuable, than some extra money on their paychecks. Ask a 1000 women what would the prefer: to have raised two successful children and have gotten to the wage of $100,000 a year, or to have raised no children and have gotten to the wage of $200,000 a year - and almost every woman will say that the former is preferable. For men the answer statistically will be quite different. There is no reason to assume that this is not the primary determinant of the difference.

You are right about the statistics you are referring to. Your interpretation of those statistics, however, is not really supported by evidence. When was the last time you heard an argument from anyone that, for example, female lawyers are inherently less capable than male ones? This view is gone, and only a negligible fraction of the population holds it any more. Why would people discriminate against women, when they do not believe that women are inferior to men? This makes no sense, especially on a competitive free market, where discriminating against a group of people for irrelevant reasons increases the costs of labor and puts the employer at a massive disadvantage.

One of my collaborators recently published a paper, where she studied effects of sexism in the academia. Despite an inherent heavy bias in the study (she was writing it in collaboration with a feminist organisation with a fairly radical agenda), she really could not conclude that systematic sexism exists, and instead had to turn her attention to more subtle effects based, again, on aggregate statistics. Her essential argument was not that women are discriminated against, but that the societal culture makes it less likely for them to choose certain career paths than for men in the first place - which is a valid concern, but hardly one we should be terribly worried about. Societal culture affects everyone, men, women and non-binary alike; it is not a one-sided issue, and not one crippling our society. It may be crippling in a place like Saudi Arabia, but not in the US, Europe and other prosperous places.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****What it never states, however, is that this gap is a result of discrimination. In fact, every study I saw has found that discrimination does not contribute to this significantly, if at all. 

Yet I found after a quick search several pieces that cite discrimination .....

https://iwpr.org/issue/employment-education-economic-change/pay-equity-discrimination/

*****You are right about the statistics you are referring to. Your interpretation of those statistics, however, is not really supported by evidence. When was the last time you heard an argument from anyone that, for example, female lawyers are inherently less capable than male ones? This view is gone, and only a negligible fraction of the population holds it any more. Why would people discriminate against women, when they do not believe that women are inferior to men? This makes no sense, especially on a competitive free market, where discriminating against a group of people for irrelevant reasons increases the costs of labor and puts the employer at a massive disadvantage.

I never made an argument about capability my whole point is and still is that there is a recognized gender wage gap , it’s like me stating that “ there is racism present in society “ and getting a response like “ well there’s reasons for it  that  explain it which make a lot of sense”

My point from several weeks ago was that a recognised gender wage gap exists in the U S , I read  recently that 46% of Americans for some peculiar reason refuse to accept this , the why is beyond me?

Data from the U.S. Census Bureau demonstrates that women earn, on average, 81 cents for every dollar a man makes.

But almost four in 10 Americans think the gender wage gap isn’t real.

Instead, 46 percent of men and 30 percent of women believe the problem of equal pay and gender parity has been “made up to serve a political purpose” and is not a “legitimate issue,” according to a survey of 8,566 American adults conducted in March by SurveyMonkey.

***** One of my collaborators recently published a paper, where she studied effects of sexism in the academia. Despite an inherent heavy bias in the study (she was writing it in collaboration with a feminist organisation with a fairly radical agenda), she really could not conclude that systematic sexism exists, and instead had to turn her attention to more subtle effects based, again, on aggregate statistics

I think that comparison is very unfair , I used originally the internationally reknowned PEW research centre and Business insider as sources I’ve yet to hear any accuse PEW of bias and sadly this always seems to happen in these type of debates as in discredit the source and it ends any further debate 

. ****Her essential argument was not that women are discriminated against, but that the societal culture makes it less likely for them to choose certain career paths than for men in the first place - which is a valid concern, but hardly one we should be terribly worried about. Societal culture affects everyone, men, women and non-binary alike; it is not a one-sided issue, and not one crippling our society. It may be crippling in a place like Saudi Arabia, but not in the US, Europe and other prosperous places.

I never said the wage gap was crippling either my whole point is still that it’s there I cannot understand why denial of this is such a problem for some , every country has an array of social problems I never understand why Americans take any criticism of their system as some sort of attack that must be defended no matter what 

MayCaesar

@Dee

I do not see how the paper cited confirms their claims. That paper lists a bunch of individual pay discrimination cases, but makes no claims on how prevalent they are statistically, nor what contribution they have on the resulting wage gap number.

I do not speak for Americans as a whole; I speak for myself. I do not defend anything but logic and truth. Wage gap exists; its logical interpretation, however, strongly differs from what most people pointing it out suggest. Once again, there is no hard evidence that discrimination contributes to it in any significant way. It probably contributes to it in some way, but nobody has managed to quantify it yet. I only have seen one study that suggested that likely less than 3% in the pay gap is explained by discrimination, but that study was based on a fairly simplistic method.

My point is, everything that we know significantly affecting the size of the pay gap has to do with individual choices men and women tend to do. It is like the fact that people with pink hair tend to earn less than people with white hair: it is not because of some discrimination against pink-haired people, but because having pink hair tends to correlate with certain hippie-like lifestyle choices that make financial success less likely.

One must separate correlation from causation, which is the essence of @MichaelElpers' argument. Yes, wage gap exists; no, it is not necessarily caused by discrimination. Discrimination may affect it, positively or negatively, but there have been no studies able to quantify it yet, and that means that we cannot make any conclusions here. From my everyday experiences, discrimination appears to be virtually non-existent, but, again, I do not see the whole picture. According to Occam's razor principle, we should not factor in discrimination without having strong evidence for it affecting the size of the gap significantly.

There is no denial here, just plain straight logic. That this logic contradicts a popular narrative means that the narrative is wrong, not that the logic is flawed.

Dee

@MayCaesar

****I do not see how the paper cited confirms their claims. That paper lists a bunch of individual pay discrimination cases, but makes no claims on how prevalent they are statistically, nor what contribution they have on the resulting wage gap number.

I do not speak for Americans as a whole; I speak for myself. I do not defend anything but logic and truth. 

Right , but yet again you seem to be making the case that anyone who holds a different view is illogical and untruthful by implication ,is that a fair assessment?

*****Wage gap exists; 

Which has been my point from the start 

****its logical interpretation, however, strongly differs from what most people pointing it out suggest. 

So again it exists as you admit which is still the point I’m making why do you and @Michaelelpers seem to admit it but then deny it?

It’s seems the term gender is the problem why so?

****Once again, there is no hard evidence that discrimination contributes to it in any significant way. 

Significant way? Tell me how do you measure “significance “ to all like this?

****It probably contributes to it in some way, but nobody has managed to quantify it yet. I only have seen one study that suggested that likely less than 3% in the pay gap is explained by discrimination, but that study was based on a fairly simplistic method.

https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap

****My point is, everything that we know significantly affecting the size of the pay gap has to do with individual choices men and women tend to do. 

I don’t agree nor do most findings 

****It is like the fact that people with pink hair tend to earn less than people with white hair: it is not because of some discrimination against pink-haired people, but because having pink hair tends to correlate with certain hippie-like lifestyle choices that make financial success less likely.

Yet discrimination by race as well as gender is fact 

*****

One must separate correlation from causation, which is the essence of @MichaelElpers' argument. 

Well no it’s not , he claimed it didn’t exist 

****Yes, wage gap exists; no, it is not necessarily caused by discrimination. 

Discrimination is a factor 

***Discrimination may affect it, 

Yes 

****positively or negatively, 

How so positively?

***but there have been no studies able to quantify it yet, and that means that we cannot make any conclusions here. 

Yet there have and are studies to confirm it 

****From my everyday experiences, discrimination appears to be virtually non-existent, but, again, I do not see the whole picture. 

Wow! I’ve yet to visit a country where discrimination is non existent sorry I just don’t but that 

****According to Occam's razor principle, we should not factor in discrimination without having strong evidence for it affecting the size of the gap significantly.

I’m going by what your researchers and stats state in the US  

****There is no denial here, just plain straight logic. That this logic contradicts a popular narrative means that the narrative is wrong, not that the logic is flawed.

Again I gave you a snippet from an article which claimed it’s a typically American thing to deny the gap as 46% do and it seems to be politically driven logic does nit enter into it in fact quiet the opposite 

MayCaesar

@Dee

I am talking about what the evidence suggests, not about which views are logical or not. But yes, views that are not supported by evidence are illogical.

Deny what? I have never disagreed that wage gap exists, I simply explained that there is no evidence to suggest that it is caused by discrimination, nor that it is a bad thing per say. Money is not everything, and many people would gladly trade extra money for other benefits.

There is the concept of "statistical significance". An effect is statistically significant if the overall statistical error is smaller than the value. If statistical error is, say, 20%, and the measured value is 5%, then the difference is not statistically significant, as seems to be the case here, as far as the evidence goes.

Positively in the sense that, by the same token, there is discrimination against men as well.

Discrimination by race and gender exists, but there is no evidence to suggest that it significantly contributes to the pay gap. You seem to be misinterpreting what the studies say; you should go after the actual studies, not the third party sources that can interpret them in any way they like. Data does not lie, but people talking about it sometimes do.
You are not going to learn science by reading articles on political websites. You have to go after the studies themselves, which can be difficult, but necessary. Luckily, in the field we are talking about articles are usually written in a way accessible to non-experts; it is quite worse in case of harder sciences like mathematics or physics, where a non-expert would not be able to understand most of what is being talked about.

TKDB

@Dee

@MayCaesar

This is the theme of the forum:

"The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public."

Both of you are off topic.

Please get back on topic.

Dee

@MayCaesar

***** I am talking about what the evidence suggests
not about which views are logical or not. But yes, views that are not supported by evidence are illogical.

But you need to explain what it suggests to you and how it suggests it?

 I post stats to support my position , where is your evidence that counters my position?

How are my views “illogical”?

What is logical according to you , how do you decide such regarding the topic at hand?

 What are the fundamental laws of logic that make you position the most logical?

You mentioned all you’re interested in truth , do you think those that disagree with you are not?

What is truth? 

****Deny what? I have never disagreed that wage gap exists,

The very thing I said existed from the start a gender wage gap , you say you accept it so why do you’s you’s keep arguing the toss? 

*****I simply explained that there is no evidence to suggest that it is caused by discrimination,

Yet my last link clearly gives a graph demonstrating such .....

Equal Pay Day was started by the National Committee on Pay Equity (NCPE) in 1996 to highlight the gap between men and women’s wages. Equal Pay Day is held every April to symbolize how far into the year women need to work to make what men did in the previous year. However, this date is calculated using the overall wage gap, the $0.80 on the dollar figure.

Equal Pay Day for Latinas and Equal Pay Day for Black women are later in the calendar year, because these minority groups typically earn less than White women. According to EqualPayDay.org, the typical Black woman must work until August 2019 to be paid what the typical White man was paid at the end of December 2018. The typical Latina woman must work until November 2019 to be paid what the typical White man was paid at the end of December 2018.

The controlled pay gap differs by race too: The largest gap is between the earnings of Black women and White men. Black women make $0.97 for every dollar a White man with the same qualifications makes. The controlled gender pay gap for Hispanic and White women is more or less the same. Both groups earn roughly $0.98 for every dollar a White man with the same credentials earns. However, this does not mean that Hispanic and White women are necessarily treated equally in the workplace.

In fact, we find that women of different races face various degrees of discrimination when it comes to getting fair compensation for their work.

So all these different groups are illogical?

****nor that it is a bad thing per say. 

How is discrimination not necessarily a bad thing? 

****Money is not everything, and many people would gladly trade extra money for other benefits.

Benefits that would Otherwise  cost money you mean? Would you not prefer to make the choice with your money I believe you made this point before as in you like to decide how to spend your money.

****There is the concept of "statistical significance". An effect is statistically significant if the overall statistical error is smaller than the value. If statistical error is, say, 20%, and the measured value is 5%, then the difference is not statistically significant, as seems to be the case here, as far as the evidence goes.

You keep making these statements but as yet have not posted one piece to counter what I’m saying 

*****Positively in the sense that, by the same token, there is discrimination against men as well.

Really? So why is the gender wage gap in men’s favour and not women’s? 

****Discrimination by race and gender exists, but there is no evidence to suggest that it significantly contributes to the pay gap. 

Have you any proof of this?

****You seem to be misinterpreting what the studies say;

No , I posted what they state it’s up to you to prove they’re “misinterpreted “ how do you go about that?

****you should go after the actual studies, not the third party sources that can interpret them in any way they like.

Again you’re making accusations with zero proof , can you prove they’re interpreting them in any way they like? For what reason are they doing this if that’s the case?

 ****Data does not lie, but people talking about it sometimes do.

Right , so not alone are the various bodies that state such incorrect but people like me are lying about it , do you honestly believe this? 


****You are not going to learn science by reading articles on political websites. 

What political websites are you referring to? I’ve as yet not tired to lean science on such sites 
 

****You have to go after the studies themselves, which can be difficult, but necessary. 

Can you demonstrate where you have done this? Do you apply this rationale to every piece you read from PEW for example and how do you go about it?

****Luckily, in the field we are talking about articles are usually written in a way accessible to non-experts;

I don’t have to be an “expert” to accept articles from credible sources in fact non acceptance of such leaves one embracing absurdities as in one can deny absolutely everything as in Science and appeals to inductive reasoning regarding science 

****It is quite worse in case of harder sciences like mathematics or physics, where a non-expert would not be able to understand most of what is being talked about.


I totally disagree , Einstein once said “ if you cannot explain it simply you don’t understand it “ yes a non expert would be lost in such a situation but that can be applied to any field of expertise , yet I can explain what I’m talking about regarding my field to a non expert that would make it perfectly comprehensible.

Dee

@TKDB

You’re off topic 

MayCaesar

@Dee

Stats do not support your position; you are simply misinterpreting them. Like I said, the wage gap is an aggregate statistic which does not show anything of substance in itself. The discrimination contribution to this statistic appears statistically insignificant, as far as all research done to date suggests, and claiming otherwise based on some personal beliefs or something else is, indeed, illogical. People who disagree with the data are being illogical indeed. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of acknowledging or not acknowledging the facts.

All the statistics you are citing are aggregate statistics and do not suggest any discrimination. To assess the level of discrimination, one would need to account for all the other factors, which is extremely difficult, and which none of the studies I have seen do.

It is not discrimination that is not a bad thing, but the difference in pay levels. Like I said, some people choose to trade higher pay for other benefits, such as, for example, the joy of raising kids. Raising kids is hard, expensive and time consuming, and choosing to do so is going to have an adverse effect on one's pay - and women tend to contribute far more to raising kids, than men. It is not a bad thing; it is something women should be proud of. Choosing to sacrifice career for the sake of other human beings is a noble thing, it is not something to demonise or remedy.
But it is a double-edged sword. A woman who has spent 10 years raising kids is going to be 10 years behind her competitors who have not. Maybe more, as in some professions it is important to stay mentally and/or physically sharp, and taking 10 years off actually sets you back by more than that.
This does not mean, however, that career highs become unachievable. One of my colleagues is a very talented researcher, who is approximately 8 years behind the average person in her field due to raising her daughter, but she is hard-working enough that I can easily see her becoming a distinguished professor eventually.

Demonstrate what? Do you want me to peer-review a scientific paper on the wage gap? I would need to be paid to do so, as that would take a lot of effort and time. I am telling you what the data suggests, but I am not going to go into a long explanation of why. I think I explained pretty well the general drill, and going into deep specifics is beyond the scope of this discussion.

In short, there are good reasons having nothing to do with discrimination for the pay gap to exist, and, in fact, it is even desirable for it to exist, given the current social culture. In the future, it is possible that men and women will start contributing equally to raising kids, to go through all the medical procedures related to it, et cetera. Right now, it is not the case. I would like for it to be the case, and you bet that, if I ever have a wife and kids, I will go out of my way and sacrifice a lot career-wise to make them as happy as humanly possible. But neither I nor you can dictate how other people deal with these things. And as long as they deal with them as they do now, the pay gap will exist. If the pay gap suddenly stops existing, without the social culture changing, then it will be a sign that something is terribly wrong with the economy - and, chances are, the economy will be falling apart before our eyes.

Dee

@MayCaesar

****Stats do not support your position; you are simply misinterpreting them. 

That’s unfair and inaccurate 

****Like I said, the wage gap is an aggregate statistic which does not show anything of substance in itself. 

Again I disagree , you’ve done nothing to prove your assertions 

****The discrimination contribution to this statistic appears statistically insignificant

Yet there is a national day to bring awareness of such 

, ****as far as all research done to date suggests, and claiming otherwise based on some personal beliefs or something else is, indeed, illogical. 

I haven’t yet given my “personal beliefs” yet I’m using highly regarded sites to make my point 

****People who disagree with the data are being illogical indeed. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of acknowledging or not acknowledging the facts.

What are the “facts”? Where are your supporting articles or stats?

****All the statistics you are citing are aggregate statistics and do not suggest any discrimination. To assess the level of discrimination, one would need to account for all the other factors, which is extremely difficult, and which none of the studies I have seen do.

Yet again discrimination is recognised by your government and agencies that are addressing the issue do you deny this?

How are they in error?

***It is not discrimination that is not a bad thing, but the difference in pay levels. 

Caused by discrimination 

*****Like I said, some people choose to trade higher pay for other benefits, such as, for example, the joy of raising kids. Raising kids is hard, expensive and time consuming, and choosing to do so is going to have an adverse effect on one's pay - 

In the U S that may be the case but elsewhere it’s definitely not

****and women tend to contribute far more to raising kids, than men. It is not a bad thing; it is something women should be proud of. Choosing to sacrifice career for the sake of other human beings is a noble thing, it is not something to demonise or remedy.

What has this got to do with the topic?

****But it is a double-edged sword. A woman who has spent 10 years raising kids is going to be 10 years behind her competitors who have not. Maybe more, as in some professions it is important to stay mentally and/or physically sharp, and taking 10 years off actually sets you back by more than that.

You mean 10 years missing from the workforce well yes , but that has nothing to do with the issue 

****This does not mean, however, that career highs become unachievable. One of my colleagues is a very talented researcher, who is approximately 8 years behind the average person in her field due to raising her daughter, but she is hard-working enough that I can easily see her becoming a distinguished professor eventually.

Yes that’s a choice and again is unrelated to what we are talking about 

****Demonstrate what? Do you want me to peer-review a scientific paper on the wage gap? I would need to be paid to do so, as that would take a lot of effort and time. I am telling you what the data suggests, but I am not going to go into a long explanation of why. 

I’m asking you how you discern people like me are “irrational” for accepting what your government recognizes as factual as do think tanks?

How is your position “rational “? I’m persuaded by rational arguments I’ve not seen one yet to persuade your position is accurate , you claim to want the truth of it so do I , again I ask you what is “truth “ regards such how do you decide?

****I think I explained pretty well the general drill, and going into deep specifics is beyond the scope of this discussion.

You explained your reasoning but that’s just your reasoning others have there’s why is yours right?

****In short, there are good reasons having nothing to do with discrimination for the pay gap to exist, and, in fact, it is even desirable for it to exist, given the current social culture. 

What good reasons?  Hows it desirable?

****In the future, it is possible that men and women will start contributing equally to raising kids, to go through all the medical procedures related to it, et cetera. Right now, it is not the case. I would like for it to be the case, and you bet that, if I ever have a wife and kids, I will go out of my way and sacrifice a lot career-wise to make them as happy as humanly possible. But neither I nor you can dictate how other people deal with these things. 

So the pay gap is all to do with a woman’s choice to raise kids you seem to be saying?

****And as long as they deal with them as they do now, the pay gap will exist. If the pay gap suddenly stops existing, without the social culture changing, then it will be a sign that something is terribly wrong with the economy - and, chances are, the economy will be falling apart before our eyes.

I don’t buy that at all 

MichaelElpers

@Dee You think the difference in pay is caused by discrimination and that is where we disagree with you...just so we can confirm that you arent misinterpreting the data, please quote one of your sources that says thr difference in pay is due to discrimination.

Not only do i think that this may be a suable offense but it makes no sense in the free market.  Businesses would be clammoring at an opportunity to pay people of equal skill level at a lower rate.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

***** You think the difference in pay is caused by discrimination and that is where we disagree with you

What else would you call it? 

*****just so we can confirm that you arent misinterpreting the data, please quote one of your sources that says thr difference in pay is due to discrimination.

I’ve done so several times I still await a source from you or others  that states otherwise

*****Not only do i think that this may be a suable offense but it makes no sense in the free market.  Businesses would be clammoring at an opportunity to pay people of equal skill level at a lower rate.

Where did I make such a point?

MichaelElpers

@Dee

Have you not been paying attention...there are plenty of reasons there could be difference in pay that dont involve discrimination.

Im saying gender discrimination in a free market doesnt make sense because of those reasons.

Dee

*****@Dee 

******Have you not been paying attention.

Why do you start every comment with an insult?

******.there are plenty of reasons there could be difference in pay that dont involve discrimination.

I'm still waiting for proof of those reasons 

*****Im saying gender discrimination in a free market doesnt make sense because of those reasons.

But you need to back your assertions up with something , you and May just keep asserting objections with absolutely nothing to support your views , what are you basing your findings on?

MichaelElpers

@Dee. I dont and that wasnt an insult i was pointing out that apparently you havent been paying attention to our previous points that occupation, hours worked, career choices, ect can all be reasons other than discrimination to prove the gap.  Again pew themselves i quoted saying that these reasons close the gap nearly all the way down.  It never states there is proof of discrimination.

My second point is just logic.  If you had a business and you could pay a labor force 80cents to the dollar to accomplish the same work, who wouldnt do that? You dont agree that is logical.

MayCaesar

@Dee

You keep misunderstanding my point. It is not that the statistics are wrong; it is their common interpretation that is wrong. There is a pay gap; it is a statistical fact. There is no indication that the pay gap has anything to do with discrimination, however. I am not sure how I can make it more clear.

Here is a study in one of the most controlled environments with some of the clearest data available, and it shows that the gender pay gap exists even in the presence of explicit equalisation policies, due to different choices men and women make with regards to overtime and other aspects of work:

https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/publications/why-do-women-earn-less-men-evidence-bus-and-train-operators-job-market-paper

What do you mean by "elsewhere it is definitely not"? Are you saying that there is a country in which a female lawyer at the age of, say, 26 take 8 years off to raise her kids, then come back on the market at the age of 34 and make as much money as other 34 year old lawyers who never took any time off? Or a country in which a woman who never takes overtime and instead chooses to go home early to care for her kids will make as much money as a person of an equal skill who stays at the office for 3-4 extra hours every day? If there is a country that has such horrible policies in place, then I would like to see their results.
It is natural for people prioritising something above career to get lower wages, than those of the people putting career above everything else. It cannot be any other way, and it just so happens that women tend to prioritise career above everything else less often than men. It is not discrimination; it is a result of a voluntary choice. Now, it may not be all there is to it, but there is no hard data suggesting that this is the case.

There are alternative explanations some studies point at too. I saw a study recently that showed that married men earn much more than any other category - and all the other categories (single men, married women and married men) earned about the same. That is also an interesting observation. Perhaps a married man can, on average, focus much more on his career than anyone else, because women tend to be housekeepers much more often, and the man can outsource a lot of that to them and concentrate on their work.
But, again, there is no discrimination against people who are not married men that I know of. The explanation, whatever it is, is completely different.

A society in which gender pay gap has been eradicated would have to be one of the following: a society in which gender roles have been equalised, or a society in which wages have been equalised through strong social or political pressure. The former has not happened in any society in human history so far, and the latter would be an abomination.

Me and @MichaelElpers, we have a lot of experience working with data. We know first-hand the danger of jumping to conclusions based on some observed patterns. Unfortunately, when it comes to the topics of race and gender discrimination, people tend to jump to conclusions more often than not, resulting in proposals of awful policies that make lives of both the allegedly discriminated against and the allegedly privileged groups worse.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

****I dont and that wasnt an insult i was pointing out that apparently you havent been paying attention to our previous points that occupation, hours worked, career choices, ect can all be reasons other than discrimination to prove the gap.  

You do and you keep doing it , to say I haven’t been “paying attention” is condescending and arrogant which is unjustified as I have posted up various studies and stats and still await even one from you to counter what I state.

Discrimination is real regards the wage gap and is one of many factors regarding such.

*****Again pew themselves i quoted saying that these reasons close the gap nearly all the way down.  It never states there is proof of discrimination.

Right , so because it’s hard to prove it doesn’t exist is that what you’re saying?

But other factors that are difficult to measure, including gender discrimination, may contribute to the ongoing wage discrepancy. In a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, about four-in-ten working women (42%) said they have experienced gender discrimination at work, compared with about two-in-ten men (22%) who said the same. One of the most commonly reported forms of discrimination focused on earnings inequality. One-in-four employed women said they have earned less than a man who was doing the same job; just 5% of men said they have earned less than a woman doing the same job.

Both men and women see inequalities in the workplace: In a 2014 Pew Research Center survey, 77% of women and 63% of men said this country needs to continue making changes to give men and women equality in the workplace.

**** My second point is just logic.  If you had a business and you could pay a labor force 80cents to the dollar to accomplish the same work, who wouldnt do that? You dont agree that is logical.

Yet it happens as the stats prove all you’re doing is attempting to justify what you once said didn’t exist , my point from the start has been .....there’s a gender wage gap @Mayceaser acknowledges this as do you now as your original postition was it didn’t exist ,right? 

Dee

@MayCaesar

****You keep misunderstanding my point. It is not that the statistics are wrong; it is their common interpretation that is wrong. 

I actually don’t , I’m asking you to explain how your interpretation of the stats are right and everyone else’s is wrong? 

****There is a pay gap; it is a statistical fact. There is no indication that the pay gap has anything to do with discrimination, however. I am not sure how I can make it more clear.

But yet there is how can I make that more clear?

PEW...Factank *****

But other factors that are difficult to measure, including gender discrimination, may contribute to the ongoing wage discrepancy. In a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, about four-in-ten working women (42%) said they have experienced gender discrimination at work, compared with about two-in-ten men (22%) who said the same. One of the most commonly reported forms of discrimination focused on earnings inequality. One-in-four employed women said they have earned less than a man who was doing the same job; just 5% of men said they have earned less than a woman doing the same job.

Both men and women see inequalities in the workplace: In a 2014 Pew Research Center survey, 77% of women and 63% of men said this country needs to continue making changes to give men and women equality in the workplace.

*****Here is a study in one of the most controlled environments with some of the clearest data available, and it shows that the gender pay gap exists even in the presence of explicit equalisation policies, due to different choices men and women make with regards to overtime and other aspects of work:

https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/publications/why-do-women-earn-less-men-evidence-bus-and-train-operators-job-market-paper 

Seriously ? This is it ......... 

We use administrative time card data on bus and train operators to show that the earnings

gap can be explained by female operators taking, on average, 1.5 fewer hours of overtime

and 1.3 more hours of unpaid time-off per week than male operators. Female operators,

especially those who have dependents, pursue schedule conventionality, predictability, and

controllability more than male operators. Analyzing two policy changes, we demonstrate

that while reducing schedule controllability can reduce the earnings gap, it can also make

workers—particularly female workers—worse off.****

So your contention seems to be people who work less hours get paid ......less??? 

Is this a joke or what? 

Incidentally if you want I can post up a piece that demonstrates clear discrimination against female bus drivers in the U S 

*****What do you mean by "elsewhere it is definitely not"? Are you saying that there is a country in which a female lawyer at the age of, say, 26 take 8 years off to raise her kids, then come back on the market at the age of 34 and make as much money as other 34 year old lawyers who never took any time off? 

No , I didn’t say that at all why do you attempt to restate in your own terms things I never stated?

Here is what you said ...... *But it is a double-edged sword. A woman who has spent 10 years raising kids is going to be 10 years behind her competitors who have not. Maybe more, as in some professions it is important to stay mentally and/or physically sharp, and taking 10 years off actually sets you back by more than that.****

You mean 10 years missing from the workforce well yes, but that has nothing to do with the issue  

*****Or a country in which a woman who never takes overtime and instead chooses to go home early to care for her kids will make as much money as a person of an equal skill who stays at the office for 3-4 extra hours every day? If there is a country that has such horrible policies in place, then I would like to see their results.

Again you’re attributing your thoughts regarding the matter to me , these are points I never made.

My point was and is women where I live can take paid maternity leave without loss of earnings , bonuses or promotions 

***It is natural for people prioritising something above career to get lower wages, than those of the people putting career above everything else. 

I never stated otherwise 

****It cannot be any other way, and it just so happens that women tend to prioritise career above everything else less often than men. 

This has nothing to do with what I’ve posted 

****It is not discrimination; it is a result of a voluntary choice. Now, it may not be all there is to it, but there is no hard data suggesting that this is the case.

Right , so it’s “voluntary choice” now 

******There are alternative explanations some studies point at too. I saw a study recently that showed that married men earn much more than any other category - and all the other categories (single men, married women and married men) earned about the same. That is also an interesting observation. Perhaps a married man can, on average, focus much more on his career than anyone else, because women tend to be housekeepers much more often, and the man can outsource a lot of that to them and concentrate on their work.

But, again, there is no discrimination against people who are not married men that I know of. The explanation, whatever it is, is completely different.

A society in which gender pay gap has been eradicated would have to be one of the following: a society in which gender roles have been equalised, or a society in which wages have been equalised through strong social or political pressure. The former has not happened in any society in human history so far, and the latter would be an abomination.

Gender equalization is a goal worth aiming for do you disagree?

****Me and @MichaelElpers, we have a lot of experience working with data. We know first-hand the danger of jumping to conclusions based on some observed patterns. 

So what? How do you know what experience I have or have not working with data? 

You and @MichaelElpers have dismissed all data that disputes your thesis and thus dismissed others who also work with and have experience with data , how do you’s justify this?

****Unfortunately, when it comes to the topics of race and gender discrimination, people tend to jump to conclusions more often than not, resulting in proposals of awful policies that make lives of both the allegedly discriminated against and the allegedly privileged groups worse.

Really? Yet in your country blacks were segregated up to the 1960’s until policies and proposals helped to change things

MayCaesar

@Dee

None of the studies you referred to reach, as a result of data analysis, the conclusion that discrimination significantly contributes to the pay gap. You are seeing in those studies what is not there. I do not know how to make it any clearer, and if you really had enough experience working with data, you would have realised it by now.

What women and men themselves say about how much they are discriminated against is, first, anecdotal evidence, and second, a biased information. 100% North Koreans say in interviews that they live in the happiest country in the world; does not make it true.
Real, relevant data is independent on the respondents' individual opinions.

No, where you live, women cannot take paid maternity leave without loss of earnings, bonuses or promotions. This is what the law states, but this is not what happens in reality; no employer is going to pay as much to a less qualified person as to a more qualified one, and there will be all kinds of other ways they are going to lower their effective benefits.
Maternity leave is also a small part of the equation. There are many other factors, such as less probability of taking overtime hours and being less dedicated to improving one's skills at home, as more time is spent on other things that men typically do not spend time on.
What country do you live in? Is there 0 pay gap? Is unemployment among women the same as among men? Let us see some data.

It is a voluntary choice. Any woman is free to say, "I am going to focus completely on my career, and if someone wants to have children and take care of them, they are free to do so - but I will pursue the career". There is no statistically significant pay gap between such women and men in an equal position, and, again, there are countless studies on that that you can find.

I am all for gender equalisation, and one of the results of gender equalisation is resulting differences in outcomes. Men and women subjected to the same legal and societal conditions are going, on average, to have different career achievements, for a variety of reasons. Equalising genders for the sake of equalisation is silly; equalising genders to make them as free to make their own choices as possible is a noble goal, however.
Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are incompatible, which is something not many people seem to understand, unfortunately.

I am not sure what your notion on blacks has to do with what I said. That discrimination was enforced by the government, and once the legal discrimination was abolished and enforced segregation ended, blacks were on the same playing field as everyone else - yet they are still underperforming in virtually all economical areas, compared to any other race. There are laws in the US prohibiting any discrimination by race by employers, and you bet the employers are not violating it, given how easy it is to sue them over it nowadays - yet the pay gap is still large, even bigger than between men and women. What is happening here? Well, we could go into that. We could go into why Asians overperform in the STEM fields, compared to any other race, even despite policies introduced in some universities establishing discriminatory quotas against them. It is all the same thing: different statistical preferences, different cultures, different habits.

TKDB

The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

The above us the theme of the forum.

@Dee

@MichaelElpers

@MayCaesar

Please stay on topic, or if any of you, have an issue with the theme, please take your grievances up with Aarong?

MichaelElpers

@TKDB. The theme is mostly dead and theres another just like it, just let us finish the conversation.

Dee

@MayCaesar

*****None of the studies you referred to reach, as a result of data analysis, the conclusion that discrimination significantly contributes to the pay gap. 

I said it’s a factor , that’s a fact 

****You are seeing in those studies what is not there. 

I’m seeing what  they claim and prove a gender wage gap , you guys are flogging a dead horse you’d both agree a gap Is there why you’re still arguing is beyond me 

****I do not know how to make it any clearer, and if you really had enough experience working with data, you would have realised it by now.

Right , so again an appeal to an argument that’s totally fallacious as in one needs “expertise” in the field of statistics to comprehend what they actually mean as opposed to what they say in plain English.

You’ve put yourself and @MichaelElpers down as authorities on such and Michael in the past has claimed the Christian post and Epoch Times were reliable unbiased sources , forgive me but I find all such claims to expertise to be nothing more than egoic posturing 

****What women and men themselves say about how much they are discriminated against is, first, anecdotal evidence, and second, a biased information. 

Yes of course best to totally ignore such 

*****100% North Koreans say in interviews that they live in the happiest country in the world; does not make it true.

Really? If they said that and believed such how is it not true?

****Real, relevant data is independent on the respondents' individual opinions.

Right , so companies that want data  on products to push sales  are wasting their time getting individuals opinions on their products?

****No, where you live, women cannot take paid maternity leave without loss of earnings, bonuses or promotions. 

Ok , that’s pretty sad 

****This is what the law states, but this is not what happens in reality; no employer is going to pay as much to a less qualified person as to a more qualified one, and there will be all kinds of other ways they are going to lower their effective benefits.

Women over here take paid maternity leave up to a point with no loss of benefits or promotions 

****Maternity leave is also a small part of the equation. There are many other factors, such as less probability of taking overtime hours and being less dedicated to improving one's skills at home, as more time is spent on other things that men typically do not spend time on.

What country do you live in? Is there 0 pay gap? Is unemployment among women the same as among men? Let us see some data.

I’m not doing the compare country game , it’s the avenue  Americans love to pursue , I used to play this game but got sick and tired of being called a “commie” “leftist” “anti American “ etc , etc 

****It is a voluntary choice. Any woman is free to say, "I am going to focus completely on my career, and if someone wants to have children and take care of them, they are free to do so - but I will pursue the career". There is no statistically significant pay gap between such women and men in an equal position, and, again, there are countless studies on that that you can find.

You’re repeating yourself , these are arguments I never made 

*****I am all for gender equalisation, and one of the results of gender equalisation is resulting differences in outcomes. Men and women subjected to the same legal and societal conditions are going, on average, to have different career achievements, for a variety of reasons. Equalising genders for the sake of equalisation is silly; equalising genders to make them as free to make their own choices as possible is a noble goal, however.

Equaling gender to attempt to eliminate discrimination is also noble I’m sure you agree 

*****Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are incompatible, which is something not many people seem to understand, unfortunately.

But I’ve not mentioned or used this as an argument 

*****I am not sure what your notion on blacks has to do with what I said. 

******You said ...... . Unfortunately, when it comes to the topics of race and gender discrimination, people tend to jump to conclusions more often than not, resulting in proposals of awful policies that make lives of both the allegedly discriminated against and the allegedly privileged groups worse.

I was pointing out it’s not always the case and I don’t know what you’re basing the “ more often than not on” 

****That discrimination was enforced by the government, 

And backed by the people 

****and once the legal discrimination was abolished and enforced segregation ended, blacks were on the same playing field as everyone else 

Really? Legally yes but that was about it 

*****yet they are still underperforming in virtually all economical areas, compared to any other race. There are laws in the US prohibiting any discrimination by race by employers, and you bet the employers are not violating it, given how easy it is to sue them over it nowadays - yet the pay gap is still large, even bigger than between men and women. What is happening here? Well, we could go into that. We could go into why Asians overperform in the STEM fields, compared to any other race, even despite policies introduced in some universities establishing discriminatory quotas against them. It is all the same thing: different statistical preferences, different cultures, different habits.

****There are laws in the US prohibiting any discrimination by race by employers, and you bet the employers are not violating it, 

Yet the department of labour has the ......Wage and Hour Division (WHD) to address the many violations taking place daily , you and @MichaelElpers seem to have  this vision  of the U S  as a Utopia where everything is perfect as any questions regarding social welfare , healthcare , minimum wage , gun rights is shot down and seen as somehow an anti American attack.

You claimed you and @MichaelElpers had experience in the field and thus placed yourselves as authorities which is fallacious ......

When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject. Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."

*****You stated ***** Me and @MichaelElpers, we have a lot of experience working with data. We know first-hand the danger of jumping to conclusions based on some observed patterns. U

 @MichaelElpers cited as accurate statistical information in past encounters The Christian  Post and the Epoch Times .....Come on seriously this is what you deem “ “lots of experience “ ???

You cited as your one supporting piece a survey on men and women who worked different hours and that was that.

I have posted study after study and pointed out your government has bodies that openly address this discrimination and a national day is held every year to bring awareness of such  , I’ve posted link after link to support my case and they are all wrong because you and Michael say so based on nothing but opinion 

What has this last piece got to do with what we are talking about?

Dee

@TKDB

The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public.

The above us the theme of the forum.



*****The above us the theme of the forum

You’re off topic by mentioning the fact we are off topic as how does your observation address what the topic asks? 

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Actually i never claimed christian post and epochtimes were free of bias and the information that was cited in the sources was not arguments or data that they came up with. 

One was just citing polls that were taken in December from polling places that are well-known (Emerson, Rasmussen, ect)...they didnt run the poll themselves so unless you think they straight up lied about the numbers there is nothing to argue.

The other source was just providing a news story.  Again i was not referencing any data and argument made by the source.  Merely showing that those things were happening.

May, claims expert because you dont seem to be able to grasp the stuff me or he have logically and reasonably explained. For example yoir only quoted "proof" of discrimination has been that PEW shows that womens median earnings are less and pointed out that more women feel theyre paid less and discriminated against...that is anecdotal and feel doesnt make it true...if it was true one would think they could compare those working the same job with same experience and determine that is the reason they are paid less...but they havent.

In science you can only change 1 variable at time in order to prove the amount of change that variable causes.  When keeping all other variables constant as to why people earn what they do gender has been seen as a irrelevant factor. 

Dee

@MichaelElpers


**** Actually i never claimed christian post and epochtimes were free of bias and the information that was cited in the sources was not arguments or data that they came up with.  

Why post them then?

***One was just citing polls that were taken in December from polling places that are well-known (Emerson, Rasmussen, ect)...they didnt run the poll themselves so unless you think they straight up lied about the numbers there is nothing to argue.

I didn’t even read them as the sources are notoriously biased 



****The other source was just providing a news story.

A biased news story yes agreed 

  *****Again i was not referencing any data and argument made by the source.  Merely showing that those things were happening.

So a pointless exercise , also if memory serves me you were indeed attempting to make a point 

******May claims expert because you dont seem to be able to grasp the stuff me or he have logically and reasonably explained.

I grasped it very well actually , Mays response so far has been a piece on bus conductors working different hours and thus getting paid different rates wow! Sadly that’s it from the pair of you’s 

***/For example yoir only quoted "proof" of discrimination has been that PEW shows that womens median earnings are less and pointed out that more women feel theyre paid less and discriminated against

Again that’s false I gave a link to racial wage discrimination more than one 

****that is anecdotal and feel doesnt make it true...

How does it make it false then?

****if it was true one would think they could compare those working the same job with same experience and determine that is the reason 

Really? 

****they are paid less...but they havent.

I don’t think you even know what you’re talking about anymore , you and May seem to think that ignoring what your government and various academic bodies recognise as fact is wrong because yous say so , you’s cannot claim to use “logic and reason” to reach your position when you’ve used nothing but  opinion based on nothing ( as yet) not one study , stat or authoritive source to back you’s up    

****In science you can only change 1 variable at time in order to prove the amount of change that variable causes.  When keeping all other variables constant as to why people earn what they do gender has been seen as a irrelevant factor. 

Yet your government and various academic sources  disagree with your politically driven objections , you’s have a national day to bring awareness of such did you know that?

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Just because we have a national awareness day doesnt mean anything. The awareness could be just for discrimination in history...and heres your appeal to authority. I want the stats and with a reliable conclusion to support it not theres an awareness day so it must be.

***Again that’s false I gave a link to racial wage discrimination more than one.

I wanted to you quote where it says it based on discrimination not solely post articles because i dont think you fully read them and i havent found anything yet.  When i asked you to quote earlier you quoted stats on how women feel...so i assume that was your best evidence because why would you present anything other.

 It doesnt prove false or true...it is just straight worthless data that doesnt prove anything except how they feel, its not objective data.

Also just because a source may have bias doesnt mean you can automatically label it false.  Just like how you didnt even read that the source wasnt providing its own poll but just citing other reliable polls.  The other didnt provide an opinion on the story it merely cited what the school did and gave quotes from schools and parents...probably ones they received from a local news outlet.

Dee

@MichaelElpers


*****just because we have a national awareness day doesnt mean anything

Well it does to those who participate , so national awareness don’t mean anything .......right 

. ****The awareness could be just for discrimination in history..

Of course it could anything you say must be right 

.*****and heres your appeal to authority. 

Its’ not I was pointing out something you weren’t even aware of so therefore using Elpers logic doesn’t exist

*****want the stats and with a reliable conclusion to support it not theres an awareness day so it must be.

What that babble means is beyond me 


**** I wanted to you quote where it says it based on discrimination not solely post articles because i dont think you fully read them and i havent found anything yet. 

I’m done with your trolling no matter what’s posted you deny it , you don’t even read the links. I’ve yet to see one piece in support of your arguments as yet still nothing 

 *****When i asked you to quote earlier you quoted stats on how women feel...so i assume that was your best evidence because why would you present anything other.

It wasn’t my “best” you ignored everything else and still you have nothing not one counter all you have is your opinion which is based on idle speculation nothing else 

 ****It doesnt prove false or true...it is just straight worthless data that doesnt prove anything except how they feel, its not objective data.

All data seems worthless to you unless it’s politically biased or from a Christian news source 

****Also just because a source may have bias doesnt mean you can automatically label it false. 

Well yes I can going on previous content how do you get to tell people what they can or cannot do?

***** Just like how you didnt even read that the source wasnt providing its own poll but just citing other reliable polls.

I told you I don’t read American Christians news posts because they’re mostly highly biased B S 

  ** **The other didnt provide an opinion on the story it merely cited what the school did and gave quotes from schools and parents...probably ones they received from a local news outlet.

Thanks for the sermon pastor I ain’t interested .....get back to me when you actually have something to back your opinion piece up with 

MichaelElpers

@Dee.  Im am aware there are days for a lot of things that doesnt mean there right.  That is appeal to authority.  Your trying.to prove just because there is a day that it is true.  I want the data showing that it is

You have sources showing it..
 Then please quote your  your source that backs up the statement that gender discrimination contributes to the wage gap. This is a simple request that will help actually end the argument.  I have read several.of your sources and didnt find it, quoting it will prove me wrong.

Again quoting how people feel is not objective data it only provides proof on how they feel...that is a fact not.my opinion. And this is the misleading and data manipulation we are talking about.

If they had data showing that these women were actually being underpaid compared to their male counterparts why not just use that?  I would agree with you then.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

***** .  Im am aware there are days for a lot of things that doesnt mean there right

I know fighting discrimination and bigotry is  “ “ because you say so 

. ****That  is appeal to authority.

It’s not I’m pointing out what you state doesn’t exist 

  ****Your trying.to prove just because there is a day that it is true. 

No , that was never my argument but don’t let that stop you letting on it is 

**** I want the data showing that it is

You got all the data you need your failure to comprehend it is yours not mine 

****You  have sources showing it..

Yes ....still 

 ****Then please quote your  your source that backs up the statement that gender discrimination contributes to the wage gap. 

I’ve done so several times I told you I’m not getting involved in your trolling 

****This is a simple request that will help actually end the argument.  

You never had one as you and May have not posted one stat or piece in support of your position except if one counts hourly overtime rates for American bus conductors or pieces from your Christian websites 

****I have read several.of your sources and didnt find it, quoting it will prove me wrong.

Get a new pair of spectacles , you didn’t find what by the way?

***Again quoting how people feel is not objective data it only provides proof on how they feel

Feelings are not important to you right? 

****That is a fact not.my opinion. 

There are no facts only interpretations 

*****And this is the misleading and data manipulation we are talking about.

Who is this “authority “ as in “we” 

***If they had data showing that these women were actually being underpaid compared to their male counterparts why not just use that?  

They have and they did as did I , you’s still have a national day and government officials  and academics that deal with such your denial of anything uncomfortable leaves you once again running for your pile of sand to bury your head in 

*****would agree with you then. 

You don’t agree with facts but seem to favour fiction thus  your continual appeal to Christian news sources which you admit are biased but that’s never stopped you has it? 

MichaelElpers

@Dee. Well the burden of proof is on you to prove it.  The only response i am willing to argue with you on is a quote from a source that says gender discrimination is a factor in the pay gap. If i cant get that theres really no argument for me to refute.

Please post the quote along with the source.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

***** Well the burden of proof is on you to prove it.  

To prove what? A gender wage gap? I’ve done that May accepts such so do you ( at last ) so your point is? 

****The only response i am willing to argue with you on is a quote from a source that says gender discrimination is a factor in the pay gap. 

It is , they’re all there for you even a national awareness day , get over it .

*****If i cant get that theres really no argument for me to refute.

You and May never had one only opinion  pieces backed by nothing and you’s still have nothing 

****Please post the quote along with the source.

Read all the missed links again and then go back on the last debate a few months back where you did the self same trolling dance of denial 

MichaelElpers

@Dee. I did read them i want you to quote one of them saying it is caused by gender discrimination.  My claim is that your sources didnt state or show this, the ball is in your court.  

Youve only quoted 1 and it was how women feel.  I want a more objective figure.  If its all there it shouldnt take you to long to find it.

TKDB

@MayCaesar

@Dee

@MichaelElpers

All three of you are off topic, and have been for your off topic efforts.

Have a good day. 

MichaelElpers

@TKDB

My real question is why do you care.  This topic was no longer getting active responses anyway.

TKDB

@MichaelElpers

It's called being Equal and Fair.

So this off topic response from you is unequal and unfair:

"My real question is why do you care.  This topic was no longer getting active responses anyway."

Have a good day.

TKDB

This is the theme of the forum:

"The Trump Impeachment Liberals, just made fools of themselves before the Public."

So please, be fair and equal to the forum.

@MayCaesar

@Dee

@MichaelElpers

MichaelElpers

@TKDB. Fair to whom...no one is replying to this anymore, another just like it has gotten more recent responses to the actual discussion, i didnt switch forums because i didnt want to lose track of the conversation.

I dont see the big deal.

TKDB

@MichaelElpers

You're off topic again, and have been . 

MichaelElpers

@TKDB Well if you want to be obnoxious to the creators who are probably few and keep bothering them... i hope they view your constant flagging as an annoyance...i would.

Also good argument...ill flag this one for you ok.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

*****I did read them i want you to quote one of them saying it is caused by gender discrimination. 

No one said that , I've said possibly 20 times now it's a factor 

Your incessant trolling is irritating and you continue to lie by saying I did not post a source to support my position ...  here  you go directly from one of my many sources you troll .....The gender pay gap is the result of many factors, including occupational segregation, bias against working mothers, and direct pay discrimination. Additionally, such things as racial bias, disability, access to education, and age come into play. Consequently, different groups of women experience very different gaps in pay.

Now run off and find the source troll , you know I've posted the link but yet you think it's up to me to keep posting the same thing so you can lie gain and deny I posted it? 

Is this because you're Butt Hurt that you had nothing to support your nonsense so far on here but Your B S biased Christian websites? 


 *******My claim is that your sources didnt state or show this, the ball is in your court.

I afraid more than one did going as far back as the last debate, why are you lying?

******You've  only quoted 1 and it was how women feel. 

Incorrect , your lies cannot hide the truth of the matter


*****I want a more objective figure.  

I told you I'm finished with your trolling 


*******its all there it shouldnt take you to long to find it.

Zzzzzzz ...... You've done nothing but troll , your whole argument is just denial and based on so far nothing but your opinion which counts for very little because as you readily admit it's only "how you feel" so therefore unworthy of any attention whatsoever