They are both human concepts and only exists with in how we perceive it. Yet, humans are naturally born to do what we call bad, and have to be taught to be good..Our basic animal instincts tend to lean to fighting, stealing, and so on. we are all born with the concept of what we call bad. prove me wrong.
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The burden is with you , all you've done is make a statement you've offered zero proof for , you do it every time as in your " prove me wrong"
Holder of the burden
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.[1] This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence." Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion – "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – which is known as the Sagan standard.[2]
While certain kinds of arguments, such as logical syllogisms, require mathematical or strictly logical proofs, the standard for evidence to meet the burden of proof is usually determined by context and community standards and conventions.[3][4]
Philosophical debate can devolve into arguing about who has the burden of proof about a particular claim. This has been described as "burden tennis" or the "onus game".
You want to play the onus game it seems, right?
Shifting the burden of proof
One way in which one would attempt to shift the burden of proof is by committing a logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance. It occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true.[8][9]
Courtesy of Wiki
So make your case please , what do you have to support your assertions  Considerate: 100%  
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@maxx
Dee and Nomenclature/Galvanise know nothing about debating. However, they're good at hate speech, personal insults, antisemitism, and bashing Americans.
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But you clearly stated....humans are naturally born to do what we call bad, and have to be taught to be good
How do you go about demonstrating that?
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@maxx
Dee and Nomenclature/Galvanise know nothing about debating. However, they're good at hate speech, personal insults, antisemitism, and bashing Americans.
Maxx correctly told you this is his topic, there are 3 people involved in a debate here if you want to continue trolling do it elsewhere please.
Kornfed reported for trolling
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Reported yet again for trolling , bullying and harassment. Please stop targeting me and others in the middle of a serious debate it's pretty childish even for you
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@aarong
I reported the following hate speech by Dee on April 10 to the Anti-Defamation League:
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/162718/#Comment_162718
Confirmation of submission:
"Thank you for reaching out to ADL, and for joining us in working towards making our communities, country and world a safer place for all.
A member of our team will review your report. If more information is required, we will follow up as soon as we can."
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Max said the teaching proccess is our proof meaning we must lear to be good. He may not of said it a clear as it need be explaned to you nor galvi...but the proof was introduced.
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He introduced no proof. He made a claim and supported it with absolutely nothing. If making unsupported claims constitutes proof then this sentence proves you have an IQ of 65.
It was an introduction to debate a starting point which is directing the nature of descussion...your funny.....It is a curtacy made on descussion to allow a person to prepare for debate.
The words used above are proof of trying to establish that an IQ is consistent and infowlable and fixed for everyone who takes a test otherwise the context might be more insulating then just vague. There is proof made by words and it is the person to whom facts are directed who has a problem in identifying by intelligence what is being set as a rule. It is truly sad how many people are just poor witnesses due to legal coaching paid for as education.
Max said, and I quote: "and have to be taught to be good."
Off Topic is all I have to say.
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You're still stalking , trolling and hijacking debates did you also mention to the ADL your vile Anti Irish and Palestinian hate pieces?
Don't fret I've done it for you where you can actually be prosecuted in the US
Reported yet again for trolling
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Actual statement from Kornfeds " source " .......
"Thank you for reaching out to ADL, ( YET AGAIN) and for joining us in working towards making our communities, country and world a safer place for all.
Could we ask you your waist size? It's just so our team can purchase you a pair of big boys trousers and maybe try them on for a few days?
A member of our team will review your report
Can I ask were there many tears? Also do you require the jumbo jar of our salve for your constant b-tt hurt?
. If more information is required, we will follow up as soon as we can.
In the meantime could you look up the term hypocrite in a dictionary ( we can supply if you cannot afford one) you seem to think that vile hate speech against IRISH AND PALESTINIANS DOES NOT COUNT , WHYS THAT?
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But you claimed we are born to do " bad", how did you determine this?
That's by any standard a sweeping generalisation
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Sowe are born leaning towards what society sees as bad, and do not change until taught differently. @ZeusAres42
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●●●No. I never anywhere said we are born to (DO bad.●●●
Again I prove you wrong using your own statements against you .....
You clearly stated " Humans are naturally born to do what we call bad "
You admitted we " are naturally born to do what we call bad " now you're saying you " never said that anywhere " ???????
That's in your opening statement why do you lie and pretend you said otherwise?
This is the part you ( as usual ) fly into a tantrum because as always I beat you using your contradictory arguments against you
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If objective evil exists, then there must be some objective lawgiver beyond individuals or groups. While one individual can say it is wrong to rape and kill a child, the child rapist can simply disagree. If you think it is wrong to kill Jews like the Nazis did during the Holocaust, we have to recognize that the Nazis did not agree. One group thought it was OK to kill someone just for being Jewish. So if there is true evil that is more than just something you think is wrong, but is wrong and evil, no matter what someone else claims, then there must be some objective lawgiver who is greater than individuals and groups. Evil can only be known when it is compared to that which is ultimately good. Otherwise it is just your opinion.
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How can you claim evil is objectively true without an ultimate lawgiver? What someone or some group may call evil, another individual or group can call good. Only if there is an ultimate lawgiver can anyone claim something is evil - otherwise it is just a person's subjective preference and not an objective thing.
Could you give examples of objective evil that are evil even if individuals or groups don't agree with that assessment? And if so, on what basis are they objectively evil? I'm sure you won't be like the banned one, and will support your claim with some facts or examples.
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Your comment reminded me of this guy, his name's not important and he's banned now anyway. The obvious always alluded him. If there is objective evil, then if remains objectively evil if individuals and groups say it isn't. That's what it means to be objectively evil. If I'm going to fast for you let me know. So, if there are things that you'd claim are evil, even if others would disagree, then there must be some objective standard by which evil is defined - that would be an objective lawgiver.
Uh no. You have made a categorical error. Evil is not an actual thing that takes up mass and space. Evil is more like a shadow. It is only revealed and the degree known by the amount of light. Evil is not a thing on its on, it is the opposite of good. It is the absence of good. Much as darkness is not an actual thing, but the absence of light. So it does not necessarily follow that God created a world with evil in it. God could have simply created a world with good in it, with individuals with free will. Since individuals have free will, they could then choose to reject that which is good - and there actions would be evil actions. Evil is the deprivation of good. It only exists and has meaning as it compares to that which is objectively good. But it doesn't logically follow that God created evil, since it is the deprivation of good and has no meaning apart from it.
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●●●Evil can only be known when it is compared to that which is ultimately good. Otherwise it is just your opinion.●●●
Right , so how would a baby who dies in birth and according to believers goes straight to heaven know good from evil ?
Apparently Heaven is a place of perfect goodness so how could a baby know good from evil?
If god is the source of all morality and says killing Muslims is good does it become so?
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you need to learn to interpret words better
Really? I caught being dishonest and such is your raging ego you pretend you weren't caught by me and @Galvanise, let's re-visit.......
You clearly stated ....
.
No. I never anywhere said we are born to (DO bad
Yet you also claimed .....
"Humans are naturally born to do what we call bad "
That's in your opening statement why do continue lie and pretend you said otherwise?
. not to mention the entire post. dont pick at one word or sentence.
I quoted you and caught you in a lie , I suggest you think before you type , this is why I soundly thrash you in every debate using your own arguments against you
understand the post. we are born with no knowledge of what we consider is good.
Yet you claimed we are born to do bad , you really are confused
we are born with basic animal instincts. therfore we naturally act out these instincts until we are taught differently
Where are your case studies that determined we are born to do bad?
. one universal trait in all humans is greed and greed is what humans consider bad. little children will want. thye will want other kids toys, snacks; what they see in stores, will throw tantrums because they can not get what they want. they will act in this way because of the animal traits we are born with. to take what is not theirs, because that is how animals operate. acting out these animals behaviorisms is what society considers bad and we have to teach them to do what we consider good. lack of this teaching, and the child will continue acting in such a bad manner. That is what i mean when we are born to do bad; to act out their basic instincts in a way society does not deem to be good
Nonsense , studies have demonstrated that kids are not born selfish as they display altruistic behaviours from a very young age , please stop making stuff up
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He does it everytime, I always beat him using his own arguments and exact works against him , the guy has a split personality and doesn't even realise it
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True, you never really made any point at all. If there is no God and only the universe, then anything that happens is just due to natural processes. Natural processes aren't good or evil, they are just the way nature works. How again could that be objective evil? Want to explain that? It would be nice if you actually made a point in your responses for a change.
Not at all. I am comfortable saying that the Nazis killing the Jews was objectively evil. Those who say there is no God are the ones who can't make the claim. Its just someone's opinion in their mind, otherwise if they make that claim there is no rationale for it. I am quite comfortable saying it is objectively evil to target and intentionally kill defenseless Israel children as Hamas does. I pity those who can't see that as true evil.
Not everyone is good with logic, but I'll try again to explain it to you. Again, there is no objective evil if you look to individuals or groups to determine it. My argument, which you apparently weren't paying attention to, is that objective evil can only exist if there is an objectively good law giver - God. Did that help?
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You have no science nor logic at all
Really tell that to the scientists that support my contentions , regards logic you think a blatant lie you told is " logic"
l. It is a fact we evolved from other primates and still have the insticts of them
I know what instincts are thank you and how we evolved
. Look it up. Animals have no concept of property, they do not consider it wrong to take from others
You're starting to ramble stay on point , also you 're wrong again chimps have a sense of right and wrong , please stop making nonsense up
. It is a survival process that has been passed on into humanity. We are born with the same pattern and society considers it bad, and children have to be taught differently.
You still have no demonstrated children are born to do bad , I and fellow scientists disagree with your bunk
Anyone who had children, know that they have to be taught to share, get alo g with others, not bully or fight, nor steal.
You " had " children seriously? Dear oh dear .
Yes I know children can be taught your claim was they are born to do bad , prove it?
They have to be taught to be good. If you believe otherwise, then it is obvious you never raised kids.
Ahh right anyone who disagrees with your contention " we are born to do bad " never raised kids , seriously?
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Actually, you made the claim and the responsibility lies with you to make the argument. I get it though, like that guy who was banned couldn't measure up, not all debaters can perform when needed. I'll answer your question since you couldn't answer it yourself. Nature has no intentions - malevolent or for good. It merely exists. An earthquake has no mind to have intentions. It is merely the reaction of the earth's crust movement. It would be wrong to ascribe to it motive.
No. I'm not. You were suppose to tell me how nature can be evil. You couldn't answer the question when asked. Some people just don't measure up to their claims. Am I right or am I right?
The only way objective evil exists is if there is an objective lawgiver. I've made this point since the beginning and you seem to not be aware of it.
Uh - no. if there is an ultimate law giver then, something can be right or wrong regardless what Nazis, Hamas, or socialists say about it. I keep repeating this point. I hope you will reflect on it.
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I agree, you certainly didn't rise to the occasion. You posit that objective evil could arise from nature and then when asked to prove your claim, you go limp. Claims that nature can create objective evil, are extraordinary and demand that those who make such claims "measure up". Which of course there is nothing to measure.
You said "but if it were objectively true then why couldn't it be a natural product of the universe?" I answered the question for you. You threw that out there and it just went limp. You did not provide evidence for that position.
That is logically deduced from the observation that individual opinion or group opinions can not set what is objectively evil. If you can't measure up, don't fall behind also.
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If you put a toy between two children they will not fight for it. Initially the very first thought is curiosity and wanting it. It isnt until something gets between you and your interest that becomes a problem. Both want the same thing but its not called bad for fighting. The natural instinct of survival is to get the reward. I think your perception of bad when introduced to modern era only applies in the world of domesticated humans. In the wild it is not considered bad to survive.
If you think about it all we are as a species are humans in funny clothes. Thats all we are. Just humans in funny clothes.
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I never said that so please stop attributing things to me I never said., you on the other hand said children are born to do bad which is utter nonsense
That if we do not teach them what is good, then they will behave anyway?
I never said that either
Where is your counter evidence?
Counter evidence to arguments I never made, seriously ? Stop deflecting and running you said children are born to do bad, prove it?
All so farcyou have done is claim i am wrong.
I said your talking nonsense you are as you haven't offered a single piece of evidence for your made up claims
Thats not proper debate.
I know , you started out by lying claiming you never said what you did then you make up more lies by claiming I said what I never said
Show me how children will behave without being taught.
But your argument was " they are born to do bad" which is why you keep deflecting as you've zero proof for your gibberish
And speaking of chimps dee, i also want you to show me how young chimps will not automatically fight each other, bully one another and steal from each other until the adult stops it
And speaking of chimps dee,
Leave Kornfed out of this
But I never said that, I said chimps know right from wrong something you denied
You taken a dreadful thrashing at least you have the site stalker who's being disciplined agreeing with your every point , must make you feel good two peas in a pod
.
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I was a little bit hasty to think of this as a strong argument. I was getting hung up on the fact that this is a logical syllogism. And you are right, it's a perfectly valid syllogism. What I failed to remember is that a weak argument can still be logically valid.
Logical validity alone I should have remembered does not automatically make an argument sound. The reason why this argument breaks down is due to a lack of supporting evidence for this claim.
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2. Objective moral values do exist
3. Therefore, God exists
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A discussion of evidences for God is beyond the scope of this debate. I don't want to hijack it. I will just briefly point out that the evidence of the universe having a beginning, the fine tuning of the universe, and the complexity of even the simplest life forms to me shows that there is a creator. I'll cover more in a religion debate.
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I answered your question the first time by pointing out to you that the universe does not have intent, and therefore can not create objective evil. You were probably too absorbed worrying over your inability to perform in this debate. I have sympathy for your debating disfunction and inability to present a firm argument for your point. Its been disappointing to listen to you to suggest things and then provide no evidence at all for them. Perhaps you are suffering from performance anxiety. Here's your chance to prove me wrong though - what is your evidence that objective evil could arise from natural causes?
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